16 hours ago, CRCL said:

Palp is still good. He was stupidly undercosted pre-nerf, and I'd argue he's still somewhat undercosted post-nerf. You now just have to make decisions with imperfect information, which isn't the end of the world, and improves the game IMO.

It is actually A lot like the cloaking nerf for phantoms. The timing window will make the play experience better for the games health long term.

I played two main lists recently: Serissu/Fenn/Manaroo and Decivader/Inquisitor.

As you see neither one of those lists used Palpatine, yet those lists worked great despite not using such "overpowered" card - also recent stats showed that Palp is not dominating. It was just a good card. Real problem were defenders and Manaroo/Attanni combo.

Unfortunately new patch happened, and between good nerfs (Zuckuss, TIE x7) there is this horrible Palpatine nerf.

What is more infuriating is the fact that greatest cancer of this game - K-Wing bombers - are still perfectly fine.

As I said before, give it more time and bunch of sheep will start moaning for K-Wing nerfs - maybe then we will finally have nerf to those abominations that TRULY destroy pleasure from this game.

I agree about K-Wings... these things ignore so many rules it's not even funny.

3 hours ago, heychadwick said:

People compare him to C-3PO, but I say it's an unjust comparison. C-3PO only works on the ship he's flying. Palpatine has no range limit. Can work on any friendly die roll anywhere on the table. Works on offensive and defensive rolls. Even works on things like Saboteur. I say he's still better than C-3PO as a crew card.

In the "Rules" forum here and over on BGG there is some discussion that Palp can only work on the ship he's flying on, based on the inclusion of the word "You" in the text of the card. Not saying I agree, just that it's a point some are making. That would make him like 3PO.

10 hours ago, Embir82 said:

I played two main lists recently: Serissu/Fenn/Manaroo and Decivader/Inquisitor.

As you see neither one of those lists used Palpatine, yet those lists worked great despite not using such "overpowered" card - also recent stats showed that Palp is not dominating. It was just a good card. Real problem were defenders and Manaroo/Attanni combo.

Unfortunately new patch happened, and between good nerfs (Zuckuss, TIE x7) there is this horrible Palpatine nerf.

What is more infuriating is the fact that greatest cancer of this game - K-Wing bombers - are still perfectly fine.

As I said before, give it more time and bunch of sheep will start moaning for K-Wing nerfs - maybe then we will finally have nerf to those abominations that TRULY destroy pleasure from this game.

Maybe you just need to fly better and plan your turns in advance to outplay K-Wings?

Snark aside, I am astonished they didn't hand it to Sabine, too. She is the last top of the curve upgrade remaining and definitly up there with Palp, Zuckuss, and Manaroo. We may or may not see K-Wing dominance in the future, it depends on how popular lists with 4 or more ships get, as thats where K-Wings lose a lot of strength.

10 hours ago, costi said:

I agree about K-Wings... these things ignore so many rules it's not even funny.

The manaroo nerf also indirectly nerfs K-Wing bombs as the Manaroo shadowing the Asajj/X means the K-wing is going to find it very hard to slam past the block of ships.

Well, this doesn't help Imperial players much...

46 minutes ago, costi said:

Well, this doesn't help Imperial players much...

Having more than 4 ships easily has the same effect. It is the triple Ds and aces that really don't like K-Wings.

12 hours ago, BleakSquadron said:

It is actually A lot like the cloaking nerf for phantoms. The timing window will make the play experience better for the games health long term.

Cloak nerf was crap. =) 2017 unnerf phantoms. Fite me.

Whisper is really not that great anymore, and meta is healthy enough she can be reintroduced.

Palp needs to successfully modify 2 evade dice on an ace to make his points back. After that, anything is gravy. Are you telling me, he won't be able to average that a game? You might need to take a statistics class if you have a hard time calling when to use him. Or that he is definitely worth his points still. He just is no longer a crutch that most imperial players needed to consider themselves top contenders. As an imperial main since start, it's a breath of fresh air.

52 minutes ago, Hujoe Bigs said:

Palp needs to successfully modify 2 evade dice on an ace to make his points back. After that, anything is gravy. Are you telling me, he won't be able to average that a game? You might need to take a statistics class if you have a hard time calling when to use him. Or that he is definitely worth his points still. He just is no longer a crutch that most imperial players needed to consider themselves top contenders. As an imperial main since start, it's a breath of fresh air.

Something I've seen reiterated here and there by Imperial players (and FGD himself ) : green dice are fickle.

It doesn't matter if your Soontir is statistically fine where he is. All you need is one unlucky roll and poof goes Soontir. If the above happens in the cut, odds are your chance to win the tournament also goes poof.

Palpatine was providing an extra layer of insurance against stuff like that and doesn't anymore. This I feel lowers his competitive viability (where your goal is to keep winning over 8-10 consecutive games) way more than his actual on-the-table viability in a single game.

54 minutes ago, Hujoe Bigs said:

Palp needs to successfully modify 2 evade dice on an ace to make his points back. After that, anything is gravy. Are you telling me, he won't be able to average that a game? You might need to take a statistics class if you have a hard time calling when to use him. Or that he is definitely worth his points still. He just is no longer a crutch that most imperial players needed to consider themselves top contenders. As an imperial main since start, it's a breath of fresh air.

To make his points back compared to what? Are we comparing him to the shield upgrade that everyone puts on every ship?

As compared to what 1HP off soontir costs, presumably.

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

As compared to what 1HP off soontir costs, presumably.

The trouble is, he has a success rate more like threepio than anything else since additional evades beyond what is necessary don't give you anything the way additional hits typically do. The success rate on palp has dropped significantly, so that's going to affect his value. It mostly serves to magnify Palp's weakness and make him less versatile. It's still a great card but i'm not sure it's 2 crew+8 points great. We'll see.

He's very similar in value when the opponent is bringing just one or two non-gunner attacks, the value drop is much more significant in multiple attack/gunner situations, e.g. TLTs and swarms.

And as I've said in most of the thread about him... I think you're missing his offensive potential. His defensive utility has certainly gone down. But naming 'crit' with him will almost never not result in a die being upgraded, and with the rest of the list built correctly, will usually be beneficial.

I'm thinking about list like Deci and Upsilon here, where the defensive benefits are mostly irrelevant (and when theya re relevant, he can usually be used like C3PO. But on any ship. And much more useful when you're rolling more than one die. And not vulnerable to Juke and Zuckuss. AND usable for offence as well.

I am not 100% convinced he's worth 8 points and 2 crew over say, Op Spec Gunner, however.

He's not the defensive screwup/variance insurance he once was, but his utility in the offence has barely changed.

4 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Maybe you just need to fly better and plan your turns in advance to outplay K-Wings?

The best way to fly against those things is to just fortressing in a corner and waiting for them to come. If they won't just prey to dice gods for good final salvo.

There is no point in coming for them - they have too many tools to make you looks like a fool circling around and dropping bombs.

The only time I was coming for them actively (and even then carefully) was about 6 months ago when I played Partybus/2xToilet seats combo. Now, this list could handle them fine. Luckily this list is not viable anymore but unfortunately K-Wings are still in fine spot.

2 hours ago, Panzeh said:

To make his points back compared to what? Are we comparing him to the shield upgrade that everyone puts on every ship?

Shield upgrades are actually quite comparable. I realize that the SU is overcosted to its benifit. But that's the thing. Palp is a reusable shield upgrade on any given ship, at any given time. Not only that but he still gives you the added benifit of rolling off crits and asteroids/debri with impunity. After two successful uses of him he is just straight up getting more value than any other upgrade you can get for the same result. But to each their own, much like when he was first announced, people will not understand his value. So be it.

16 hours ago, drathbun said:

In the "Rules" forum here and over on BGG there is some discussion that Palp can only work on the ship he's flying on, based on the inclusion of the word "You" in the text of the card. Not saying I agree, just that it's a point some are making. That would make him like 3PO.

Yeah, I don't believe this will last long. Even if it technically might be the way the rules are written, it will surely be shot down super fast.

He's the new Whisper: Much, much harder to use. Still powerful, but no longer a crutch. The no-longer-a-crutch thing will mean he starts disappearing from tables in droves (People do not like their powerful toys getting nerfed, especially if they're bad at figuring out the new value again)... but you'd better believe he's still going to be plenty useful, and plenty dangerous when someone does show up with him.

Timing window changes are great like that - his actual math (in which if he saved even a couple hitpoints on a high-value Ace he'd already paid for himself and half his shuttle besides) hasn't changed, only the reliability. You have to make calls now, which brings the game back to what it should be all along.

16 hours ago, LordBlades said:

Something I've seen reiterated here and there by Imperial players (and FGD himself ) : green dice are fickle.

It doesn't matter if your Soontir is statistically fine where he is. All you need is one unlucky roll and poof goes Soontir. If the above happens in the cut, odds are your chance to win the tournament also goes poof.

Palpatine was providing an extra layer of insurance against stuff like that and doesn't anymore. This I feel lowers his competitive viability (where your goal is to keep winning over 8-10 consecutive games) way more than his actual on-the-table viability in a single game.

An unlucky roll resulting in dead Soontir is the same now as it was then--fix one die. If he blanked out after a strong attack, Palp couldn't save him then either. Nothing has changed on that front.

The only difference is you declare Palp's use before you blank out and Soontir dies now, whereas before you could say "well Soontir is dead either way, so I guess I'll just save Palp for later."

It's only riskier now if you're getting shot by multiple ships in a round and you're not sure which roll you'll flub. The obvious solution to that is fly Soontir like the arc-dodger he's supposed to be, and not like a tanky jouster. Limit the shots coming your way, and use Palp against the most lethal one.

His competitive value is absolutely lower, that was the point of nerffing him. They weren't trying to make him better. I just don't think he's that much worse than people seem to think.

Tried the newly balanced Commonwealth defenders tonight. Seems fine.

More testing the next couple days.

1 hour ago, Sekac said:

An unlucky roll resulting in dead Soontir is the same now as it was then--fix one die. If he blanked out after a strong attack, Palp couldn't save him then either. Nothing has changed on that front.

The only difference is you declare Palp's use before you blank out and Soontir dies now, whereas before you could say "well Soontir is dead either way, so I guess I'll just save Palp for later."

It's only riskier now if you're getting shot by multiple ships in a round and you're not sure which roll you'll flub. The obvious solution to that is fly Soontir like the arc-dodger he's supposed to be, and not like a tanky jouster. Limit the shots coming your way, and use Palp against the most lethal one.

His competitive value is absolutely lower, that was the point of nerffing him. They weren't trying to make him better. I just don't think he's that much worse than people seem to think.

The problem that I see is vs. average-ish rolls. Something like this: you have Soontir with a token (focus/evade), enemy shoots and rolls Hit Crit. Normally, with 4 greens and a token you should be fine, but you kinda have to waste Palp on this roll because if you don't and you blank out Soontir loses Stealth Device and eats a crit.

You're probably right though, stuff like the above was the intention of the nerf. Time and tournament results will tell how well that really works in practice.

13 hours ago, Velvetelvis said:

Tried the newly balanced Commonwealth defenders tonight. Seems fine.

More testing the next couple days.

I flew RAC+DV last night.

Palp is still valuable, especially to get a crit for ISYTDS, or to guarantee an evade against a good attack roll. And I must admit, having to stop and consider when to use his ability is more fun.

I think the coot will avoid the dustbin.

For my part, I'll keep using Palpatine, and defenders too.

Just because the pretended 'over-usage' of those by the empire is the SYMPTOM of a much deeper problem for imperials, not the illness itself.

Even with these nerfs, IMO, imperials will still need to keep using Palpatine and TIE Defenders, so, the overall situation won't change much for them.