holding your own against a severely injured person is not exactly an amazing feat.
She was a pretty terrible pilot.
And as to force use I chock that up to more Kylo screwed up more than Rey is was good.
Does Force Influence work on force sensitives?
Kinda similar to how Finn, a Stormtrooper, is a fantastic gunner, decent with a lightsaber despite being an untrained non-Force sensitive, is a ranged weapons specialist yet he was a janitor that botched his first combat mission. Yep, only Rey has this issue in TFA...
1 hour ago, Daeglan said:Luke could pilot. Luke was good in a fight. Luke was a Mechanic. Luke was learning to use a lightsaber. Rey already proved she knew how to fight melee. So really you are complaining that a girl could do what Luke could do.
Your Luke is different than mine. Luke was lousy in a fight, like was a pilot nerd and that's it.
Luke was the guy who went to save the princess, but the princess saved him instead. Luke did not became bad ass until his training was completed in RotJ.
Edited by SEApocalypse15 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:Your Luke is different than mine. Luke was lousy in a fight, like was a pilot nerd and that's it.
Luke was the guy who went to save the princess, but the princess saved him instead. Luke did not became bad ass until his training was completed in RotJ.
I said good. Not bad ass.
Kylo screwed up. Not Rey was amazing. Kylo was incompetent.
5 minutes ago, Daeglan said:holding your own against a severely injured person is not exactly an amazing feat.
She did more than hold her own in that fight. And still hands down handled that sabre better her first time than Luke ever did.
6 minutes ago, Daeglan said:She was a pretty terrible pilot.
Dodging those Tie fighters like she did and setting Finn up for that perfect shot is being a terrible pilot?
6 minutes ago, Daeglan said:And as to force use I chock that up to more Kylo screwed up more than Rey is was good.
No real proof of that. Plus there was her more than excellent use of the Force when she was captured by Han. And how she just somehow knew she could use Influence without it ever being taught to her.
6 minutes ago, GroggyGolem said:Kinda similar to how Finn, a Stormtrooper, is a fantastic gunner, decent with a lightsaber despite being an untrained non-Force sensitive, is a ranged weapons specialist yet he was a janitor that botched his first combat mission. Yep, only Rey has this issue in TFA...
I never claimed Finn was a better character. I don't need to list other bad characters in my deconstruction of Rey as a character just to prove that somehow my disagreement with her isn't because she's a woman. Finn isn't much better as a character either. And as I said over a year ago TFA was not a good movie. For a lot of reasons, this being one of them. TFA is plagued with some very bad characterization issues, but that doesn't somehow make Rey any better.
23 minutes ago, Daeglan said:I said good. Not bad ass.
Kylo screwed up. Not Rey was amazing. Kylo was incompetent.
Rey was pretty bad ass as mechanic and melee combat. In RPG terms should would be like brawn 3, agi 4 and int and willpower 4 with two ranks in Melee and Mechanics. Not Luke RotJ level awesome, but pretty close to Luke at Hoth, just minus his leadership skills. Those were definitely lacking with Rey
Or in other words, Rey started as more like a Knight Level character while Luke started without XP boost. Same as little brat Anni. *g* Who was in many ways disliked for the same reasons than Rey, but hey at least Rey is 10 years older than that Brat.
54 minutes ago, Kael said:She did more than hold her own in that fight. And still hands down handled that sabre better her first time than Luke ever did.
Dodging those Tie fighters like she did and setting Finn up for that perfect shot is being a terrible pilot?
No real proof of that. Plus there was her more than excellent use of the Force when she was captured by Han. And how she just somehow knew she could use Influence without it ever being taught to her.
I never claimed Finn was a better character. I don't need to list other bad characters in my deconstruction of Rey as a character just to prove that somehow my disagreement with her isn't because she's a woman. Finn isn't much better as a character either. And as I said over a year ago TFA was not a good movie. For a lot of reasons, this being one of them. TFA is plagued with some very bad characterization issues, but that doesn't somehow make Rey any better.
Good pilots dont drag their ship all over the place and into structures on the ground.
And gee she already demonstrated she know how to use a staff and from personal experience a sword can be used in a very staff like manner which is what she did.
excellent use of the force? Kylo screwed up then it took her several tries to get a mind trick off. She also had Kylo trying to use influence on her. So yeah not excellent. But successful use after several tries.
5 minutes ago, Daeglan said:Good pilots dont drag their ship all over the place and into structures on the ground.
Yeah that one looked more like a lot of talent aka agi 4.
Just now, SEApocalypse said:Yeah that one looked more like a lot of talent aka agi 4.
And much more sturdy vehicles than we have... doing that to an aircraft today would make it explode
Also we already know imperials are crap at their jobs. Bad guy incompetence is a thing one should consider as well as good guy skill.
Just now, Daeglan said:Good pilots dont drag their ship all over the place and into structures on the ground.
You are vastly down playing her skills as a pilot. She had a rough start but for her first time in combat at the helm of a ship she did AMAZINGLY well. Flying through wrecked Star Destroyers. Lining Finn up for shots. Hell when Finn takes out that last Tie fighter she lines that ship up in an awe inspriing way. She is, in the very least, a good pilot. However her skills during that fight displayed so much more.
Or are you seriously going to argue that what she pulls off in that dog fight is just .... bad piloting?
Just now, Daeglan said:And gee she already demonstrated she know how to use a staff and from personal experience a sword can be used in a very staff like manner which is what she did.
Lightsabre and melee combat are different beast. So much so that they require separate skills in most games. And honestly it wouldn't be that big of a deal if it weren't for the fact that she is pretty much good at everything she attempted to do. Had they picked one or two things her skill with the sabre at the end wouldn't have been that bad. But by the time we get to the end of the movie it's just one more ace up her sleeve among many aces she's played.
Just now, Daeglan said:excellent use of the force? Kylo screwed up then it took her several tries to get a mind trick off. She also had Kylo trying to use influence on her. So yeah not excellent. But successful use after several tries.
You keep saying Kylo screwed up but have yet to actually support that argument. She resisted Kylo which makes her good in general. And it's not like that was my only Force use scene I highlighted. How about the fight back on the freighter with Han? And while she doesn't pull it off on the first try she still figured out Influence without having a teacher. Even if we go off of she learned it after Kylo that is still a whole lot better than Luke.
Luke wasn't able to use the Force until roughly the end of the movie. By the end of TFA Rey was able to use the Force to close doors, via a camera, she was able to resist a strong Force user like Kylo (you've never supported the argument that he screwed up just keep insisting it is so), is able to figure out how to use Influence on her own, and uses the Force to help her defeat Kylo in a lightsabre duel. Yet somehow, as a beginer with no real training, none of that is excellent? It's just .... what average? bad? So what does that make Luke who isn't actually good at using the Force until the RotJ? In her first movie she displays more skill than Luke did via three movies. Sooo I guess Luke, who is supposed to be one of the most powerful Force users, is somehow super bad at the Force for most of what we see him as?
And that's just comparing her to Luke. I could compare her to a lot of the other beginer Force users we see throughout canon Star Wars and she still outshines most of them. Anakin. Ezra.
1 minute ago, Kael said:You are vastly down playing her skills as a pilot. She had a rough start but for her first time in combat at the helm of a ship she did AMAZINGLY well. Flying through wrecked Star Destroyers. Lining Finn up for shots. Hell when Finn takes out that last Tie fighter she lines that ship up in an awe inspriing way. She is, in the very least, a good pilot. However her skills during that fight displayed so much more.
Or are you seriously going to argue that what she pulls off in that dog fight is just .... bad piloting?
Lightsabre and melee combat are different beast. So much so that they require separate skills in most games. And honestly it wouldn't be that big of a deal if it weren't for the fact that she is pretty much good at everything she attempted to do. Had they picked one or two things her skill with the sabre at the end wouldn't have been that bad. But by the time we get to the end of the movie it's just one more ace up her sleeve among many aces she's played.
You keep saying Kylo screwed up but have yet to actually support that argument. She resisted Kylo which makes her good in general. And it's not like that was my only Force use scene I highlighted. How about the fight back on the freighter with Han? And while she doesn't pull it off on the first try she still figured out Influence without having a teacher. Even if we go off of she learned it after Kylo that is still a whole lot better than Luke.
Luke wasn't able to use the Force until roughly the end of the movie. By the end of TFA Rey was able to use the Force to close doors, via a camera, she was able to resist a strong Force user like Kylo (you've never supported the argument that he screwed up just keep insisting it is so), is able to figure out how to use Influence on her own, and uses the Force to help her defeat Kylo in a lightsabre duel. Yet somehow, as a beginer with no real training, none of that is excellent? It's just .... what average? bad? So what does that make Luke who isn't actually good at using the Force until the RotJ? In her first movie she displays more skill than Luke did via three movies. Sooo I guess Luke, who is supposed to be one of the most powerful Force users, is somehow super bad at the Force for most of what we see him as?
And that's just comparing her to Luke. I could compare her to a lot of the other beginer Force users we see throughout canon Star Wars and she still outshines most of them. Anakin. Ezra.
I am not a great pilot and I have done similar things. It is not hard to fly a ship down a very large open space. And that maneuver is not that spectacular. It is a simple loop. Not an immelman, not a wing over, not a stall turn. Nothing all that complicated.
And she did not close doors via the force. Go watch the scene again. She pressed a button at the right time. I wouldn't say Kylo is that skilled of a force user. He has a few tricks. And Snoke says his training is not complete. So no he is not some bad ass force user. He is a force user with a few nifty tricks. And Rey already had fighting experience. She defeated 4 guys with her staff. Then she beat a guy with 2 critical injuries. Whose skill level with a lightsaber is not really known. He beat a guy who lost to a storm trooper. Basically a guy who never won a hand to hand fight. Someone with fairly rudimentary training can do that while injured. I think you WAY over estimate Kylo's ability. Kylo is no Darth Vader. He is a whiny wanna be.
Others have already told you how he screwed up. It is pretty obvious from Kylo's reaction that he is the one that failed. It is also fairly obvious that Kylo knows her. And that she likely has had some past training. She was placed on Jakku by someone. This is quite obvious. We do not know what training level she was at when se was dropped off.
2 hours ago, GroggyGolem said:Kinda similar to how Finn, a Stormtrooper, is a fantastic gunner, decent with a lightsaber despite being an untrained non-Force sensitive, is a ranged weapons specialist yet he was a janitor that botched his first combat mission. Yep, only Rey has this issue in TFA...
All of TFA has issues with "over inflation of cool." Even Poe couldn't just be an excellent pilot, he had to be able to take out a half dozen enemy fighters in a single pass. That didn't make him look cool to me, it made him look ridiculous.
1 hour ago, SEApocalypse said:Rey was pretty bad ass as mechanic and melee combat. In RPG terms should would be like brawn 3, agi 4 and int and willpower 4 with two ranks in Melee and Mechanics. Not Luke RotJ level awesome, but pretty close to Luke at Hoth, just minus his leadership skills. Those were definitely lacking with Rey
Or in other words, Rey started as more like a Knight Level character while Luke started without XP boost. Same as little brat Anni. *g* Who was in many ways disliked for the same reasons than Rey, but hey at least Rey is 10 years older than that Brat.
You suggested Characteristic values are way too high for your suggestion that she was a Knight level character. She'd need at least three instances of Dedication to have those values.
21 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:All of TFA has issues with "over inflation of cool." Even Poe couldn't just be an excellent pilot, he had to be able to take out a half dozen enemy fighters in a single pass. That didn't make him look cool to me, it made him look ridiculous.
Can agree on general TFA issue, can't agree on Poe, he is just an ace, doing what Wedge and other alliance top aces could do. Though the TIEs pilots might have been especially green, which again fits the first order theme.
And btw, Finn was supposed to be elite.
"You have great potential, 2187. You are officer corps material. Your duty is to the First Order above everything. Nothing else comes before that." ―Captain Phasma
His unit was for a reason with Kylo Ren on Jakku, he was not just the space janitor of starkiller base.
17 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:You suggested Characteristic values are way too high for your suggestion that she was a Knight level character. She'd need at least three instances of Dedication to have those values.
I am glad you noticed. I am not as glad that you are actually wrong on the numbers of dedications as two would be sufficient . ;-)
edit:
What surprised me is that unlike my exception of slightly overstating Rey, a Mechanic/Modder can actually even get two dedications and that 4 4 3 2 2 2 stateline. Right at knight level Oo
Edited by SEApocalypse15 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:I am glad you noticed. I am not as glad that you are actually wrong on the numbers of dedications as two would be sufficient . ;-)
I don't think that you are correct. You suggested 3/4/4/x/4/x (x = unspecified, so likely 2). As a human, the best she could start with is 3/3/3/2/3/2 for 120 XP. She would then need to raise three Characteristics (Agility, Intellect, and Willpower) to 4 through Dedication to get to the values you suggested.
2 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:I don't think that you are correct. You suggested 3/4/4/x/4/x (x = unspecified, so likely 2). As a human, the best she could start with is 3/3/3/2/3/2 for 120 XP. She would then need to raise three Characteristics (Agility, Intellect, and Willpower) to 4 through Dedication to get to the values you suggested.
I did? Brawn 3, Agi 4, Willpower 4? Which state I suggested another 4 in? Let me check and come back, I might actually made a mistake there.
edit: Ah, typo, thanks for catching. I was thinking first about int 4 and change my mind to willpower 4 and 2 mechanics ranks instead. Though overstating her was intentional anyway, but not in that way. So, now without sarcasm: Glad you catched this.
Edited by SEApocalypseNumbers are what I do, both at work and when playtesting. In both situations, it gets really annoying to point out errors and then see those corrections ignored in the final presentation.
7 hours ago, GroggyGolem said:Speaking of that island, was that supposed to be foreshadowing to the end of TFA with Luke on one of Ach-To's islands?
That was my take on it.
2 hours ago, Blackbird888 said:
If you actually managed to read those in their entirety, then let none here doubt or question your courage in the face of such horrors.
Question your sanity perhaps, but not courage
On 3/8/2017 at 9:13 PM, GroggyGolem said:Kinda similar to how Finn, a Stormtrooper, is a fantastic gunner, decent with a lightsaber despite being an untrained non-Force sensitive, is a ranged weapons specialist yet he was a janitor that botched his first combat mission. Yep, only Rey has this issue in TFA...
Finn was a janitor because in training, despite being the most skilled member of his team, he showed too much sentiment by helping train up his teammates, not leaving troopers behind, evidencing mercy, and otherwise behaving like a great soldier but a terrible remorseless stormtrooper. (That's from the FN-2187 portion of Before the Awakening .)
So he got temporarily reassigned as punishment. Presumably, his otherwise excellent performance (in terms of marksmanship, tactics, and so forth) led to his being put back into a combat position.
On 3/8/2017 at 11:58 PM, SEApocalypse said:Luke was lousy in a fight, like was a pilot nerd and that's it.
Well, your Luke is different than the Luke we see in the movies, then. That Luke guns down stormtroopers, casually swings across chasms, and shoots out door controls from at least Medium range. Naturally, this makes sense because the high Agility he has for Piloting also makes him decently handy with a blaster, despite that not being his "main" skillset.
Similarly, we see Rey's fighting style early in TFA and it looks fairly Agility-based, like Ataru. So, while she's not a pilot first and foremost, she's able to do some basic piloting (albeit while crashing into things and taking more shots than a Russian soldier) due to her high Agility.
Edited by Benjan Meruna2 hours ago, Benjan Meruna said:So, while she's not a pilot first and foremost, she's able to do some basic piloting (albeit while crashing into things and taking more shots than a Russian soldier) due to her high Agility.
Rey's backstory, presented in Before the Awakening , explains that she scavenged flight simulation programs which included atmospheric craft, as well as freighters and starfighters. She practiced the scenarios, and ultimately mastered all of them, even on the most difficult settings. This is not the same as actual experience, to be certain, but she was no stranger to piloting.
Just now, Edgehawk said:Rey's backstory, presented in Before the Awakening , explains that she scavenged flight simulation programs which included atmospheric craft, as well as freighters and starfighters. She practiced the scenarios, and ultimately mastered all of them, even on the most difficult settings. This is not the same as actual experience, to be certain, but she was no stranger to piloting.
I remember hearing about that, and the movie alluded to it with the scene where she puts on the helmet IIRC.