Playtesting can often miss something, that is something we all understand in designing games.

But are you seriously telling me that FFG, with now years of x wing design experience suddenly fails so spectacularly to hit the mark?

Let's not be naive. They made amazing cards. Everyone ran to buy scum. Now they nerf them and get to keep the cash.

Don't tell me you couldn't see zuckuss issues from a mile away during playtesting. The extent to which some cards were hit just shows how off they were by design.

No, it's not a coincidence.

EDIT: I used zuckuss as one example to reduce the text. But the x wing forum echo chamber as usual was unable to look at the issue from the whole perspective, so let me help you: theres also manaroo, palp and defenders (yikes! that was ESPECIALLY hard to predict! 1 ship + 1 title combo! very complex! Im sure they missed it!)

You give FFG too much credit.

Just look at stuff like Kihraxz, G1-A, U-wing wtc.

Is FFG also designing horrible stuff they don't want to sell on purpose ?

They probably had the party bus in mind. But Dengaroo? I doubt it.

Plus, Zuckuss is still a really good card!

He lets you force rerolls on any number of opposing green dice. He's still only one point!

The idea that Zuckuss was the only reason people bought a G1-A is laughable.

Just now, PhantomFO said:

Plus, Zuckuss is still a really good card!

He lets you force rerolls on any number of opposing green dice. He's still only one point!

The idea that Zuckuss was the only reason people bought a G1-A is laughable.

Agreed, 4LOM is also in there

Really?

*sigh*

Just play casually with the rules on the cards if it bugs you so much, or run your own tournament. Seriously, try list building. The meta is so open right now, I can honestly say I haven't liked the look of the game so much since wave 3!

13 minutes ago, haritos said:

No, it's not a coincidence.

Yeah actually, it is.

8 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

You give FFG too much credit.

Just look at stuff like Kihraxz, G1-A, U-wing wtc.

Is FFG also designing horrible stuff they don't want to sell on purpose ?

This.

FAQ'ing everything also looks bad. They'd rather get it right the first time. So yes, it is playtesting.

4 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

Agreed, 4LOM is also in there

Wait, there was a whole ship that came with those crew?

if they didnt have playtesting the jm5k would have had a 3sloop. They originally wanted it to be only a 3speed maneuver, but noticed the unhinged astro would absolutely break that dial even more than it is if its sloops were 3speed.

You cant release perfect stuff every time. In fact majority of the scum releases were pretty crap prior to Aggressors and even then theyre not over the top. JM5K is the only over the top expansion (crew and pilots alike). If you take that expansion out of the picture, Scum suddenly have 0 insanely broken shenanigans. Even with the Lancer/Protectorate, as theyre mostly elevated to stupid levels because of attani/manaroo. On their own, theyre pretty well rounded.

I even hate to add to this thread with an eye roll smiley face. The idea that FFG purposely made broken cards to sell lots of product, and then nerf the cards, is just stupid.

22 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

You give FFG too much credit.

Just look at stuff like Kihraxz, G1-A, U-wing wtc.

Is FFG also designing horrible stuff they don't want to sell on purpose ?

The Kihraxz comes with the widely used Crack Shot and Predator upgrades.

G1-A is the only source for Zuckuss crew, so maligned it was nerfed.

The flaming pile of hot garbage that is the amazing looking Starviper probably has sold more copies of Autothrusters to Imperial Players than Starvipers have hit the table total.

U-Wing is the only current source of Expertise, which was a discussion hotbed.

I mean, I am not saying he's right, but you don't make a compelling argument with that list. Better to have listed the Scyk I think. I mean, unless Flechette Cannons suddenly became good while I wasnot looking.

If this were the case FFG wouldn't design DoA (dead on arrival) ships. Balancing X-Wing is hard. FFG screws up occasionally.

Yes, no doubt they package desirable cards with powerful effects in huge ships to sell them, same reason they package content for Standard in there. But they don't deliberately make cards meta-warping because killing their game's reputation is bad for business in the long run.

I don't even believe the negatives of the distribution method are deliberate: for Wave 1's release it makes sense without appearing harmful.

A card like Zuckuss can slip through playtesting. It took LW, Overclocked, Manaroos ability, and Dengar's ability to make that card just ridiculous. A party bus was tough, but not broke.

What shouldn't slip through playtesting is an entire ship like the scout. The second that was previewed, the entire board saw the problem with having three of them, which means FFG should have seen the problem, but they released it anyways. There is no way they didn't see that coming.

Paratanni is just a cumulation of the right ships and upgrades and like Dengaroo, can easily slip through playtesting because of the million possible combinations and Old Para just happened to be the one to come across it and do well with it and it all clicked. FFG does not have a million people playtesting, so certain combinations will always slip through the cracks.

Maybe you should consider a Star Wars chess set. Each of those pieces have had quite a bit of playtesting.

47 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I even hate to add to this thread with an eye roll smiley face. The idea that FFG purposely made broken cards to sell lots of product, and then nerf the cards, is just stupid.

It really, really is.

There is a lot that FFG does that I openly and vocally disagree with. But I know for a fact that the designers and playtesters do not set out to produce unbalanced products. Period. It is, in fact, exactly the opposite.

Any assertion to the contrary is crackpot-ism and embrace of "alternative facts."

1 hour ago, PhantomFO said:

Plus, Zuckuss is still a really good card!

He lets you force rerolls on any number of opposing green dice. He's still only one point!

The idea that Zuckuss was the only reason people bought a G1-A is laughable.

I bought the G1-A only for Zuckuss. Oh wait I don't play in tournaments, I play for casual fun and theme. I used to buy expansions for cards and theme.

1 hour ago, haritos said:

Playtesting can often miss something, that is something we all understand in designing games.

But are you seriously telling me that FFG, with now years of x wing design experience suddenly fails so spectacularly to hit the mark?

Let's not be naive. They made amazing cards. Everyone ran to buy scum. Now they nerf them and get to keep the cash.

Don't tell me you couldn't see zuckuss issues from a mile away during playtesting. The extent to which some cards were hit just shows how off they were by design.

No, it's not a coincidence.

I really have to call BS on this. Compare the limited number of playtesters vs the number of players and add in the limited amount of time for play testing before stuff goes to printing and you have a good recipe for an OP combo sneaking through. Players' are really good at sniffing out great combinations. Especially when there's no deadline looming over them.

I can see an OP combo being detected after something has gone to the printer when it's too late to make changes. To meet deadlines it's released and then FAQ'd later.

Of course, FFG could slow the releases to allow for more play testing unless they are somehow contracted to put out so many per year. And with the new movies coming out each year they need to have the new stuff ready for those in a timely manner. You can also bet that Disney releases info to FFG at the last possible moment to reduce the amount of leaked info available.

1 hour ago, haritos said:

They made amazing cards. Everyone ran to buy scum. Now they nerf them and get to keep the cash.

Don't tell me you couldn't see zuckuss issues from a mile away during playtesting. The extent to which some cards were hit just shows how off they were by design.

No, it's not a coincidence.

OMG!! THIS IS SO TRUE. . .I CAN'T BELIEVE I DIDN'T SEE IT UNTIL NOW.

LET'S BUILD A WALL AROUND MINNESOTA AND MAKE FFG PAY FOR IT. HECK, THEY GOT ALL OUR CASH AT THIS POINT!!!!!!

OP should help out the playtesters and make a checklist of all the things he wants them to test new abilities and upgrades against based on the type of interactions they might have. Then post it here so we can nod in agreement.

Its so cute how all of you defend so blatantly wrong balance decisions

You mean Defenders were hard to playtest too right? Who would have thought what the implication of getting a free evade token mean! It requires serious skills!

Who would have thought of putting a range 3 on Manaroo and Palp? (or 2, whatever). Really cute how you find the x wing creators uncapable of making that call. REALLY cute you think its coincidence that incredibly powerful cards people have been crying for years over came with a 90$ price tag.

I see people asking "lol why would they do that, its dumb". How is it dumb they make a bucketload of money from people who rush to buy 3x scouts because OMG ITZZZZ SO STRONK I READ IT FOR?UMS!!

Its the same business model used in videogames like LoL. Release new hero. Build the hype. People buy him. Nerf.

As I said, missing the mark occasionally is absolutely fine. Missing the mark by such a large margin? I call bull. WE ARE BEING SCAMMED BROTHERS.

You mean I can't run my 3 Zuckuss list anymore? **** FFG why did you have to nerf the Clone Wars!!!!

Quote

Its so cute how all of you defend so blatantly wrong balance decisions

Quote

eally cute how you find the x wing creators uncapable of making that call. REALLY cute you think its coincidence that incredibly powerful cards people have been crying for years over came with a 90$ price tag.

You seem to think the word "cute" is a perjorative.

I'm intrigued as to why.

3 hours ago, Gibbilo said:

FAQ'ing everything also looks bad. They'd rather get it right the first time. So yes, it is playtesting.

Right. Because time and experience make games immune to FAQ.

D&D: 30+ years ,5+ editions, millions of hours of playtesting. Still putting out errata.

SFB: 30+ years, multiple editions, millions of hours of playtesting. Still putting out errata.

Warhammer: ditto

Warmachines, Call of Cthulhu...

Exactly what "perfect" game company is FFG meant to be emulating?

3 minutes ago, Democratus said:

Right. Because time and experience make games immune to FAQ.

D&D: 30+ years ,5+ editions, millions of hours of playtesting. Still putting out errata.

SFB: 30+ years, multiple editions, millions of hours of playtesting. Still putting out errata.

Warhammer: ditto

Warmachines, Call of Cthulhu...

Exactly what "perfect" game company is FFG meant to be emulating?

That wasn't the point, it was that FFG would prefer not to FAQ (rather errata), so intentionaly broken designs aren't desireable.

The idea that FFG is so short-sighted they'd want to make a quick buck by wrecking the consumers trust in their product is ridiculous. They surely aren't the best game designers out there, but they have learned that a quality product sells a lot better and more consistently than a faulty one. Early FFG games were very mixed. They always knew how to get art down, but the games sometimes had mindbogeling inconsistencies. X-Wing sits right at the end of that era. The initial design came with some critical flaws, the impacts of which still echo through todays work. It really is not easy to get through this patchwork of a game.

1 minute ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

That wasn't the point, it was that FFG would prefer not to FAQ (rather errata), so intentionaly broken designs aren't desireable.

The idea that FFG is so short-sighted they'd want to make a quick buck by wrecking the consumers trust in their product is ridiculous. They surely aren't the best game designers out there, but they have learned that a quality product sells a lot better and more consistently than a faulty one. Early FFG games were very mixed. They always knew how to get art down, but the games sometimes had mindbogeling inconsistencies. X-Wing sits right at the end of that era. The initial design came with some critical flaws, the impacts of which still echo through todays work. It really is not easy to get through this patchwork of a game.

Seriously. We're 10 waves in, and FFG is still trying to figure out the whole, "How can we make T-65s as good as the TIE Fighter?" thing.