1 hour ago, Lampyridae said:

Practical invulnerability? Corran can get smashed by two TIEs. Green dice blank out. At range 1, 6 dice will blast through 1 evade, 3 shields and 2 hull. I've had plenty of E-Wings blow up under me, trust me.

Regen doesn't help if you can't outrun your enemy. Regen doesn't help if you can't use it. Last night I was chasing down Kath Scarlett with PTL and Gonk, and my opponent wound up having to take white moves while stressed. Sure, it piled on 3 extra shields but at the end of the day that's like taking 3 evade actions. Regeneration is always a choice, and often not the best one.

It´s possible, sure. But if the only good chance to do it is get two ships at range one at a ship which has ptl and advanced sensors and moves after you, it´s like winning the lottery. No to mention that you would have to hit all and Corran blank all dice. And still he would fire before you.

Same goes for Poe and Miranda. I would like to have a single or even two TIE fighters have some kind of chance of winning against regeneration ships, but I´ve given up that long time ago. That said, I´ve not been crying for errata, unlike the Emperor-haters.

11 minutes ago, Pretty Green said:

It´s possible, sure. But if the only good chance to do it is get two ships at range one at a ship which has ptl and advanced sensors and moves after you, it´s like winning the lottery. No to mention that you would have to hit all and Corran blank all dice. And still he would fire before you.

Same goes for Poe and Miranda. I would like to have a single or even two TIE fighters have some kind of chance of winning against regeneration ships, but I´ve given up that long time ago. That said, I´ve not been crying for errata, unlike the Emperor-haters.

But its the exact same thing with imperial aces, 1 evade, one emperor and the single TIE has no more hope. A second TIE doesn't really change that when you can just wait and see if you also have focus. Green dice blank eventuall is a fallacy when you can conjure up 2 evades from thin air anyways at your whim.

1 minute ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

But its the exact same thing with imperial aces, 1 evade, one emperor and the single TIE has no more hope. A second TIE doesn't really change that when you can just wait and see if you also have focus. Green dice blank eventuall is a fallacy when you can conjure up 2 evades from thin air anyways at your whim.

Agreed, that´s something I would like to see changed. All ships should have some chance to win a one-on-one.

Not sure how that would be possible with the current play mechanics. Doesn´t Armada have some better way to handle damage? Of course that´s totally different game, but I wonder if some things could be adopted to X-Wing.

Just now, Pretty Green said:

Agreed, that´s something I would like to see changed. All ships should have some chance to win a one-on-one.

Not sure how that would be possible with the current play mechanics. Doesn´t Armada have some better way to handle damage? Of course that´s totally different game, but I wonder if some things could be adopted to X-Wing.

The system is vastly better I heard. They use tokens you can spend to avoid damage which get more effective the further away the enemy is. Certainly something for a possible second edition to consider. Evades are very problematic when they shut out damage entirely with no real downsides.

4 hours ago, Pretty Green said:

As I stated before, some cards will always be more competitive/popular than others. That´s no reason to errata them.

It is when they're 29 points minimum courtesy of needing to come on a Lambda.

Palpatine was an Imperial meta-warper: the durability benefit he provided was so great he choked out other options.

13 minutes ago, Blue Five said:

Palpatine was an Imperial meta-warper: the durability benefit he provided was so great he choked out other options.

Yeah, so much "meta warping", an example of few Imperial meta staple lists without Palpatine:

1) 3 Defenders

2) 2 Defenders & Ace

3) Decimator + Ace

4) TIE Swarm

As one can see, instead of Palpatine the one truly warping choice was new Defender.

Using your "logic" the same treatmant as to Palpatine should be used against Miranda Doni, if anything she is bigger meta-warper for Rebels.

And before /x7 came out, Imperial lists were basically palp/aces and TIE swarms. Trip Aces were definitely a thing but too prone to high variance to reliably make top tables.

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1) 3 Defenders

2) 2 Defenders & Ace

Reliant on x7 which also received an erratum.

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3) Decimator + Ace

4) TIE Swarm

Which are two archetypes that weren't exactly doing great in the previous meta.

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Using your "logic" the same treatmant as to Palpatine should be used against Miranda Doni, if anything she is bigger meta-warper for Rebels.

Do you know what a meta-warper is?

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

And before /x7 came out, Imperial lists were basically palp/aces and TIE swarms. Trip Aces were definitely a thing but too prone to high variance to reliably make top tables.

What is your point?

Because we can go back ad infinitum. Using your logic:

"And before Jumpmasters came out, Imperial Aces were outclassed by Rebel regen."

If anything your post (especially bold part) proves that Palpatine wasn't broken, quite the contrary - it was just a good card that gave Imperium competitive edge. Because that was needed to effectively run Imperial Aces at all.

My point is that since palp came out, he's been a disproportionately large part of the Imperial meta (he was often part of Deci/ace builds as well), and him being no longer brokenly overpowered means he will be less a part of the imperial meta, offering more variety in list building, and that's good.

His errata also means that when he is present he's a lot less annoying to play against.

5 minutes ago, Blue Five said:

Which are two archetypes that weren't exactly doing great in the previous meta.

If you think that Decimator with Hotshot Copilot was doing bad in previous meta then in fact we can end our conversation.

5 minutes ago, Blue Five said:

Do you know what a meta-warper is?

I just used it in context of your own definition, to quote:

35 minutes ago, Blue Five said:

Palpatine was an Imperial meta-warper: the durability benefit he provided was so great he choked out other options.

Unless your definition of meta-warper changes from post to post you should understand what I wrote in earlier post. And yes, in context of your defnition of "meta-warper" Miranda Doni, or K-Wing for that matter, is much bigger meta warper than poor Emperor.

4 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

Unless your definition of meta-warper changes from post to post you should understand what I wrote in earlier post. And yes, in context of your defnition of "meta-warper" Miranda Doni, or K-Wing for that matter, is much bigger meta warper than poor Emperor.

I wouldn't disagree with you there; I'm a little surprised that Sabine didn't get hit with the nerf-bat as well.

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Unless your definition of meta-warper changes from post to post you should understand what I wrote in earlier post. And yes, in context of your defnition of "meta-warper" Miranda Doni, or K-Wing for that matter, is much bigger meta warper than poor Emperor.

That's called dodging the question. If you know what that definition is why not simply state it?

The simple answer being that you don't know and want to hide it.

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I wouldn't disagree with you there; I'm a little surprised that Sabine didn't get hit with the nerf-bat as well.

They've probably got an eye on her.

Then again, it's Sabine so maybe they've got buffs in the pipeline.

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If you think that Decimator with Hotshot Copilot was doing bad in previous meta then in fact we can end our conversation.

If you want to do that it's not as if anybody's forcing you to continue posting in this thread.

8 minutes ago, Blue Five said:

That's called dodging the question. If you know what that definition is why not simply state it?

The simple answer being that you don't know and want to hide it.

I just used "meta warper" exactly in the same meaning as you used it. To prove that you are wrong.

Do you really don't remember what you posted about hour ago? Even when quoted? You must be trolling or having really hard time on being proven wrong in discussion.

8 minutes ago, Blue Five said:

If you want to do that it's not as if anybody's forcing you to continue posting in this thread.

Learn to read with understanding - stopping conversation with you, for obvious reasons, doesn't mean stopping posting in given thread.

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I just used "meta warper" exactly in the same meaning as you used it. To prove that you are wrong.

Do you really don't remember what you posted about hour ago? Even when quoted? You must be trolling or having really hard time on being proven wrong in discussion.

If you are able to define meta-warper then define it. If you are not able to then admit it.

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Learn to read with understanding - stopping conversation with you, for obvious reasons, doesn't mean stopping posting in given thread.

Yet you appear to be continuing.

2 minutes ago, Blue Five said:

If you are able to define meta-warper then define it. If you are not able to then admit it.

I don't have to define what "meta waper" is. You already described it in your earlier post, I will quote again:

1 hour ago, Blue Five said:

Palpatine was an Imperial meta-warper: the durability benefit he provided was so great he choked out other options.

So to explain this to you as simple as I can:

I called out on your statement, proven that you are wrong - we weren't talking about definition of "meta warper" we were talking about Palpatine being meta warper in context you yourself described.

You really don't know what it means, do you?

2 minutes ago, Blue Five said:

You really don't know what it means, do you?

You really don't know what we are talking about, do you?

Just now, Embir82 said:

You really don't know what we are talking about, do you?

You said Mirandi Doni was a meta-warper, I asked you if you knew what a meta-warper was and now you're frantically prevaricating and trying to change the subject because you're unable to admit that you don't know.

Man, imagine if people fought this hard about getting fixes to awful cards instead of complaining about one of the 5 best cards in the game getting a slight rules change which forces them to actually think about how to best use the card now.

Maybe... we should try it.

*Goes to start thread*

Woah, guys, I think we all need to take a breath. Miranda and other bombers were used in response to Palp/X7/Manaroo shenanigans all over the place. Sabine backed bombs became one of the only ways Rebel lists could reliably put damage onto x7 defenders and Palp backed fighters. These lists became prevalent BECAUSE of the dominance of Palp and x7 on the imperial side of the meta. Regen and high health (aka Miranda) was necessary due to the disgusting offensive punch of Dengaroo. Plus bombs didn't allow Dengar to shoot back.

Since these lists rose in response to the cards that were nerfed, they are a sign of the meta being warped, not the other way around. You didn't see (to my knowledge anyway) lists being designed around the threat of rebel bombers or even regen, because the reality is those lists were necessary to make it a fair fight.

And as for the other poster who is trying to say that a single tie fighter should have a chance of taking down Poe, Corran or Miranda....are you serious? I mean, there is a chance, you even admitted that, but you seem to want an EVEN chance. A fully kitted out Miranda, Poe or Corran ends up being nearly half of a list. Less for Poe, of course, but the absolute most expensive imperial tie fighter (Howlrunner with a 4 point ept and a shield upgrade) is 26 points. Without upgrades, Corran is 35, Miranda is 29, and Poe is 31 or 33 depending on which flavor you want to run. OF COURSE A SINGLE TIE FIGHTER SHOULD NOT HAVE AN EVEN CHANCE AT TAKING OUT ONE OF THOSE SHIPS. I mean, Jesus.

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And as for the other poster who is trying to say that a single tie fighter should have a chance of taking down Poe, Corran or Miranda....are you serious? I mean, there is a chance, you even admitted that, but you seem to want an EVEN chance.

Haven't read the post in question but I'd assume they mean a proportional chance. It's fairly straightforward to make a ship invunerable to a 2 die attack in the current state of the game hence the turn towards maximising defence or maximising offense.

The nerfs to Imperial faction cards go a long way to alleviating this. Palpatine proportionally added a large amount of damage mitigation to ships that could reliably arc dodge and TIE/x7's previous state allowed Defenders to reliably stack tokens without sacrificing maneuverability. PalpAces' damage mitigation warped the metagame severely, propelling things like TorpScouts to dominance because that level of raw damage output was needed to break through. Any list that couldn't take on Extreme Defence and Extreme Offense died out.

The raw power of Manaroo and Zuckuss had to be dealt with but without dealing with Extreme Defence the meta would simply tend to the next most powerful Extreme Offense list. They'd once again kill anything that couldn't deal with both off and we'd be back where we started. Both extremes needed clipping. It remains to be seen if it'll be enough.

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

I wouldn't disagree with you there; I'm a little surprised that Sabine didn't get hit with the nerf-bat as well.

It's the only thing I've ever wanted.

1 hour ago, FatherTurin said:

Miranda and other bombers were used in response to Palp/X7/Manaroo shenanigans all over the place. Sabine backed bombs became one of the only ways Rebel lists could reliably put damage onto x7 defenders and Palp backed fighters.

I'm going to stop you there because this was the same argument people used to say Fat Han was "OK" back in the day. It didn't matter that his insane damage mitigation (at the time) helped push stuff out of the meta, because people were "only using him in response to the Phantom menace". It wasn't a good argument then and it's not a good argument now, because once the problem lists (Phantoms, Palp Defenders) were gone or nerfed, their counters remain just as powerful.

Just now, ObiWonka said:

It's the only thing I've ever wanted.

I'm going to stop you there because this was the same argument people used to say Fat Han was "OK" back in the day. It didn't matter that his insane damage mitigation (at the time) helped push stuff out of the meta, because people were "only using him in response to the Phantom menace". It wasn't a good argument then and it's not a good argument now, because once the problem lists (Phantoms, Palp Defenders) were gone or nerfed, their counters remain just as powerful.

You know, that's a fair point. And discussing it rationally is always better than devolving into internet shouting matches over the definition of meta warping.

I would argue though, that powerful does not mean meta warping. Fat turrets (and bombers for that matter) have distinct weaknesses, but the dominant lists are hard counters to the lists that exploit those weaknesses. Did that make any sense?

In any event, when large ships continued to be very strong and prevalent in the meta, FFG changed the mob rules to make them still effective but less attractive so they didn't dominate the competitive scene. There's a constant fluidity to game development and responding to trends in the game. If bombers remain really good or too good, there will be adjustments.

Also worth noting is that in the 2016 worlds, 10 of the top 16 lists used one or more of the nerfed cards. No triple bomber lists made the cut, and only one Miranda list did. Oddly enough, a fat Han list made the cut as well.

Just now, ObiWonka said:

It's the only thing I've ever wanted.

I'm going to stop you there because this was the same argument people used to say Fat Han was "OK" back in the day. It didn't matter that his insane damage mitigation (at the time) helped push stuff out of the meta, because people were "only using him in response to the Phantom menace". It wasn't a good argument then and it's not a good argument now, because once the problem lists (Phantoms, Palp Defenders) were gone or nerfed, their counters remain just as powerful.

You know, that's a fair point. And discussing it rationally is always better than devolving into internet shouting matches over the definition of meta warping.

I would argue though, that powerful does not mean meta warping. Fat turrets (and bombers for that matter) have distinct weaknesses, but the dominant lists are hard counters to the lists that exploit those weaknesses. Did that make any sense?

In any event, when large ships continued to be very strong and prevalent in the meta, FFG changed the mob rules to make them still effective but less attractive so they didn't dominate the competitive scene. There's a constant fluidity to game development and responding to trends in the game. If bombers remain really good or too good, there will be adjustments.

Also worth noting is that in the 2016 worlds, 10 of the top 16 lists used one or more of the nerfed cards. No triple bomber lists made the cut, and only one Miranda list did. Oddly enough, a fat Han list made the cut as well.