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PS. I REALLY hope you don't go out "buy up" all of the product you can to create that artificial shortage which can then drive up prices. I can remember seeing OUTRAGEOUS prices for expansions ($30+ for a small ship) just because some of the local markets didn't have enough supply.
FFG produces enough now that it's really hard for an individual to do. Wave 2 it was possible and happened.
13 minutes ago, Blue Five said:FFG produces enough now that it's really hard for an individual to do. Wave 2 it was possible and happened.
I think it can still happen in some places and cases. "It" being unable to find something and it may be more prevalent in other parts of the world besides the USA. I do think that many who would have paid the outrageous prices are now less likely to jump all over something as there are now just so many more options if you don't happen to have something and also because there is more faith that FFG will reprint something when it runs low. To that last point I'm thinking a number of people may have come into X-Wing from some of those "collectable" games where if you didn't get something when you had the chance you may need to expect to pay a LOT more later.
The /X7 now works they way it should have from the start. It has not been "nerfed", it has been changed so that you require a little skill to get the benefit, or that a person who has used their own skill and blocked you, gets the benefit for doing so,
9 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:Or it was a broken, ubiquitous card, relied on as a crutch by many. (Or, as I personally believe, somewhere in the middle.)
Citation needed.
Non-sequitur.
Citations needed.
Out of curiosity, what have the exact results been of your testing? A W/L record will suffice, but I'd love more detail.
Broken card, really? Have we played the same game, because when you browse these forums, no one has suggested Palpatine was truly broken card before the errata. Strong, sure. But when you consider the resteictions, it´s not that bad.
You think you are funny with those "citation needed" comments? Palpatine was not dominating games. Just check the results, there´s your citation.
Of course I will try Palpatine after this, but I feel like I have been cheated. Just because of some forum-whiners got their way.
QuoteOf course I will try Palpatine after this, but I feel like I have been cheated. Just because of some forum-whiners got their way.
Fairly sure FFG looks more at tournament data than the forums. They wouldn't last long if they bent to every forum complaint.
1 hour ago, Blue Five said:Fairly sure FFG looks more at tournament data than the forums. They wouldn't last long if they bent to every forum complaint.
So is the intention to always kill the top builds? Then they have to do it regularly, as there always will be some cards that are stronger and more played than other. Palpatine was not dominating any tournaments.
14 minutes ago, Pretty Green said:So is the intention to always kill the top builds? Then they have to do it regularly, as there always will be some cards that are stronger and more played than other. Palpatine was not dominating any tournaments.
They're looking to balance the game, so if something is OBVIOUSLY too good, it gets nerfed.
I only wish FFG would buff 1 horrible card for every 1 god awful broken card they nerf.
26 minutes ago, Pretty Green said:So is the intention to always kill the top builds? Then they have to do it regularly, as there always will be some cards that are stronger and more played than other. Palpatine was not dominating any tournaments.
The intention is to kill builds that breed out of control so that a greater diversity of builds can flourish. It's not about where builds place as much as it is about their population. Firstly, Palpatine was ubiquitous in Imperial lineups. Secondly, if the Manaroo lists alone were killed off PalpAces would have simply retaken the top spot it had before the Jumpmaster plague. The goal of the aerrata would not have been truly met. Nerfing Palpatine was necessary to blast the meta wide open.
2 hours ago, Pretty Green said:Broken card, really? Have we played the same game, because when you browse these forums, no one has suggested Palpatine was truly broken card before the errata. Strong, sure. But when you consider the resteictions, it´s not that bad.
You think you are funny with those "citation needed" comments? Palpatine was not dominating games. Just check the results, there´s your citation.
Of course I will try Palpatine after this, but I feel like I have been cheated. Just because of some forum-whiners got their way.
Did you miss the disappearance of 2 dice ships from the meta? Ever since Palpatine was a thing they saw little use unless equiped with Crack Shot or as single blocker. Entire archetypes have been lost at the (engage sarcasm) imperial whiners that wanted to make their aces viable.
19 minutes ago, Blue Five said:The intention is to kill builds that breed out of control so that a greater diversity of builds can flourish. It's not about where builds place as much as it is about their population. Firstly, Palpatine was ubiquitous in Imperial lineups. Secondly, if the Manaroo lists alone were killed off PalpAces would have simply retaken the top spot it had before the Jumpmaster plague. The goal of the aerrata would not have been truly met. Nerfing Palpatine was necessary to blast the meta wide open.
Is it really now open, we won´t see any similiar builds at the top? I´ll be looking forward to see Punishers and Starvipers in the meta.
I don´t agree in the slightest that Palpatine was a broken card before. It was very far from unbeatable.
Just now, Pretty Green said:I don´t agree in the slightest that Palpatine was a broken card before. It was very far from unbeatable.
Blue isn't suggesting it was broken, simply it was in every top Imperial list, and so it wasn't creating interesting or diverse builds. Because the choice of "I'm running imps, do I use Palpatine?" wasn't a choice at all. When you run into a situation like that, there's something wrong.
2 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:Did you miss the disappearance of 2 dice ships from the meta? Ever since Palpatine was a thing they saw little use unless equiped with Crack Shot or as single blocker. Entire archetypes have been lost at the (engage sarcasm) imperial whiners that wanted to make their aces viable.
I did, mine disappeared because of too strong rebel regeneration. You could not win Corran, Arc or Poe even with two TIE fighters.
The sarcasm is unnecessary as Imperial players have not whined about making their aces viable.
I hated the TLT but learned how to beat them. Hate them still, but I´m not crying for errata.
1 minute ago, Books McZaddy said:Blue isn't suggesting it was broken, simply it was in every top Imperial list, and so it wasn't creating interesting or diverse builds. Because the choice of "I'm running imps, do I use Palpatine?" wasn't a choice at all. When you run into a situation like that, there's something wrong.
As I stated before, some cards will always be more competitive/popular than others. That´s no reason to errata them.
1 minute ago, Pretty Green said:The sarcasm is unnecessary as Imperial players have not whined about making their aces viable.
Thats a joke, right? Where were you during wave 2 to 5? They complained until they got the convuluted mess that Autothrusters are, which created a lot more problems than they fixed.
2 hours ago, Pretty Green said:Broken card, really? Have we played the same game, because when you browse these forums, no one has suggested Palpatine was truly broken card before the errata. Strong, sure. But when you consider the resteictions, it´s not that bad.
You think you are funny with those "citation needed" comments? Palpatine was not dominating games. Just check the results, there´s your citation.
Of course I will try Palpatine after this, but I feel like I have been cheated.
Yeah, it was pretty broken.
For 8 points (steep, it would seem) you got about 6 to 10 guaranteed dice results over the course of a typical 100-point match. If only 3 uses of Palpatine result in a hit point being lost or saved, it pays for itself in Hull Upgrades (yours or theirs). But most of the time, you got 6 to 10 guaranteed evades and crits. You usually got much more out of that card than what you pay for it, and it shows in the tournament results.
You'll probably still get more than 3 good uses out of Palpatine even if you're not that good at knowing the best time to use him, so you're still getting your points' worth. He's fine now, really. He was embarrassingly easy to win with before.
58 minutes ago, Pretty Green said:Palpatine was not dominating any tournaments.
Maybe not, but when Imperials have showed up in the elimination rounds at tournaments over the past year and half, there's been about a 50% chance that Palpatine will be in their list. Very few cards have had such lasting popularity, and the reason is because it's easy to win games with it.
7 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:Thats a joke, right? Where were you during wave 2 to 5? They complained until they got the convuluted mess that Autothrusters are, which created a lot more problems than they fixed.
Not a joke, I´ve been around since wave 2, but posted for the first time now as this really pisses me off.
Yeah, there were problems without autothrusters, but nothing too serious. At least they FFG didn´t nerf the turrets to "balance" the play against them.
8 minutes ago, DagobahDave said:Yeah, it was pretty broken.
For 8 points (steep, it would seem) you got about 6 to 10 guaranteed dice results over the course of a typical 100-point match. If only 3 uses of Palpatine result in a hit point being lost or saved, it pays for itself in Hull Upgrades (yours or theirs). But most of the time, you got 6 to 10 guaranteed evades and crits. You usually got much more out of that card than what you pay for it, and it shows in the tournament results.
You'll probably still get more than 3 good uses out of Palpatine even if you're not that good at knowing the best time to use him, so you're still getting your points' worth. He's fine now, really. He was embarrassingly easy to win with before.
Maybe not, but when Imperials have showed up in the elimination rounds at tournaments over the past year and half, there's been about a 50% chance that Palpatine will be in their list. Very few cards have had such lasting popularity, and the reason is because it's easy to win games with it.
You make it sound that Palpatine was used without a ride. No, you have to put him in a otherwise a useless ship, or a very expensive one. That limits your options dramatically what to field. So a minimum of 29 points. Not cheap for a support function.
So, it was popular. So what? If you agree it wasn´t broken, why nerf it just because it was popular? Not auto-win, or even easy.
9 minutes ago, Pretty Green said:I did, mine disappeared because of too strong rebel regeneration. You could not win Corran, Arc or Poe even with two TIE fighters.
Yeah 24 points should be at a disadvantage versus 35+ points. However lets compare the "too strong" Corran Horn to any Palpatine-backed ace. You have 3 dice with evade and focus protecting 5 hitpoints versus 3 hitpoints, with Autothrusters common on the 3 hitpoints. Then you have one guaranteed hit being canceled, either at the end of the turn (where you might not get) or exactly when you need it. Exactly when you need it is a lot stronger than at a point where you might be dead and the effect can be added to any ship in your squadron. Palpatine is demonstrably stronger than any regen effect.
New Palpatine still can be, provided you can evaluate which attack is most likely to hurt (which you can do after you know how many hits your opponent got) you or you only have 1 incoming. The lessened certainty and room for error now brings them roughly to the same level, with Palpatine being only so slightly weaker.
Just now, Pretty Green said:You make it sound that Palpatine was used without a ride. No, you have to put him in a otherwise a useless ship, or a very expensive one. That limits your options dramatically what to field. So a minimum of 29 points. Not cheap for a support function.
So, it was popular. So what? If you agree it wasn´t broken, why nerf it just because it was popular? Not auto-win, or even easy.
The 21-point OGP is one of the most cost-effective ships in the game, with or without Palp. The DoomShuttle remains fairly popular, too. It's a great ship in the early game -- stop maneuver, wide 3-attack forward arc, slow rolls with the best of them. Decimators are awesome all day and have the room to spare. Having to put Palp on those ships isn't a drawback.
8 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:Yeah 24 points should be at a disadvantage versus 35+ points. However lets compare the "too strong" Corran Horn to any Palpatine-backed ace. You have 3 dice with evade and focus protecting 5 hitpoints versus 3 hitpoints, with Autothrusters common on the 3 hitpoints. Then you have one guaranteed hit being canceled, either at the end of the turn (where you might not get) or exactly when you need it. Exactly when you need it is a lot stronger than at a point where you might be dead and the effect can be added to any ship in your squadron. Palpatine is demonstrably stronger than any regen effect.
New Palpatine still can be, provided you can evaluate which attack is most likely to hurt (which you can do after you know how many hits your opponent got) you or you only have 1 incoming. The lessened certainty and room for error now brings them roughly to the same level, with Palpatine being only so slightly weaker.
Disadvantage is something else than practically invulnerability. Corran with push the limit and regeneration could not lose even to two 2 attack TIE fighters.
Imperials on the other hand suffer every hit, even if hits don´t come that often with Palpatine. And even then you had a decision to be made.
Green dice always fail at some point. So no, I don´t agree with you on that Palpatine is stronger than regeneration. Especially when you compare the price you pay. And once your opponent gets behind Lambda, it´s done.
New Palpatine reminds me of ship-restricted, overpriced C-3PO who you might not end up even using that often.
20 minutes ago, DagobahDave said:The 21-point OGP is one of the most cost-effective ships in the game, with or without Palp. The DoomShuttle remains fairly popular, too. It's a great ship in the early game -- stop maneuver, wide 3-attack forward arc, slow rolls with the best of them. Decimators are awesome all day and have the room to spare. Having to put Palp on those ships isn't a drawback.
The 21 point OGP is statistically a pretty efficient ship, but i've never seen a lambda that didn't hold Palp in forever. The problem with the OGP is the red turn- it's very difficult to get dice value with that limitation, especially if the low PS 3-attack ships that can and were very efficient are driven out of the meta anyway. Palp does require an investment of more than his base cost. Obviously it was worth it before but the change in how he works significantly changes his value proposition for the worse. He might still be great, we'll see soon enough.
11 minutes ago, Pretty Green said:Disadvantage is something else than practically invulnerability. Corran with push the limit and regeneration could not lose even to two 2 attack TIE fighters.
Imperials on the other hand suffer every hit, even if hits don´t come that often with Palpatine. And even then you had a decision to be made.
Green dice always fail at some point. So no, I don´t agree with you on that Palpatine is stronger than regeneration. Especially when you compare the price you pay. And once your opponent gets behind Lambda, it´s done.
New Palpatine reminds me of ship-restricted, overpriced C-3PO who you might not end up even using that often.
Corran runs 42+ points. He costs like 3.5-4 TIE fighters depending on the build. He shouldn't have a problem dispatching two TIEs, or he'd pretty much lose most of his value.
I mean, if you want to talk about annoying regen ships, Miranda is almost impossible to catch.
6 minutes ago, Pretty Green said:Disadvantage is something else than practically invulnerability. Corran with push the limit and regeneration could not lose even to two 2 attack TIE fighters.
Imperials on the other hand suffer every hit, even if hits don´t come that often with Palpatine. And even then you had a decision to be made.
Green dice always fail at some point. So no, I don´t agree with you on that Palpatine is stronger than regeneration. Especially when you compare the price you pay. And once your opponent gets behind Lambda, it´s done.
New Palpatine reminds me of ship-restricted, overpriced C-3PO who you might not end up even using that often.
Practical invulnerability? Corran can get smashed by two TIEs. Green dice blank out. At range 1, 6 dice will blast through 1 evade, 3 shields and 2 hull. I've had plenty of E-Wings blow up under me, trust me.
Regen doesn't help if you can't outrun your enemy. Regen doesn't help if you can't use it. Last night I was chasing down Kath Scarlett with PTL and Gonk, and my opponent wound up having to take white moves while stressed. Sure, it piled on 3 extra shields but at the end of the day that's like taking 3 evade actions. Regeneration is always a choice, and often not the best one.
Just my two cents. I think such topics are quite pointless.
I have not played the game for almost 2 months now and last game before January was July, but it feels based on the first post, that I should start "blaming" FFG that X-wing was fun before, but now I wasted a lot of money into ships I do not play at all so I have no fun.
Changes happen and as a competitave game - "alancing happens. Unless I am mistaken, the Game of Thrones got some cards "outdated" and banned from use.
I am not sure what the next waves will bring, but I really hope they would slow down a little after this major change and see what happens.
14 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:I'm genuinely baffled by the negative reaction. Have folks really never played games that used errata before? If so, how is this so unbelievably shocking?
And look, again, I am not an FFG fanboy. (Well, except for their customer service, which is fantastic ... until it gets ruined by bragging thieves.) I disagree with what they do frequently, strongly, and vocally. I don't even think they're doing errata properly, because they're using a buckshot approach to fix an expansion (JM5K), instead of, you know, actually fixing the ship.
But I'm baffled by how shocked and appalled some people are by the idea that a company issues errata in the sincere (whether misguided or not) effort to make a game better. I'm not being condescending ... I genuinely don't understand the reaction.
Let's cut OP some slack here. It's not fun if you buy stuff to collect a certain list and then the rules change in such a way that the list you originally envisioned is no longer as powerful. In a more extreme form, this happened with a lot of new GW codexes (codices?). This can happen even if the changes are for the sake of the quality of the game.
In this case...well, Palpatine and x7 still do roughly the same thing but with more downsides attached. Their functions in a given squad haven't changed dramatically. That still doesn't make OP a whiner, but the nature of these changes makes the alarmism unnecessary.
However, if I had bought two Jumpmasters+extra stuff just so I could play Dengaroo, literally minutes before the FAQ dropped, then I suppose I'd be disappointed. Dengaroo is still possible, I guess, but at the very least it has to be flown very differently.
So I can understand the emotion, even if I don't think it's justified re: Palpatine and x7.
Dengaroo as originally conceived (use Lone Wolf and Manaroo passing tokens to get full mods whilst nuking every positive defence dice that is rolled against you with Zuckuss forever) no longer works at all. It's not that it has to be flown differently it's that the two key components (Manaroo and Zuckuss) now work SO differently as to completely invalidate the list.
And that's totally 100% fine, it was probably the least fun list in the game to fly against.