21 minutes ago, FatherTurin said:

You know, that's a fair point. And discussing it rationally is always better than devolving into internet shouting matches over the definition of meta warping.

I would argue though, that powerful does not mean meta warping. Fat turrets (and bombers for that matter) have distinct weaknesses, but the dominant lists are hard counters to the lists that exploit those weaknesses. Did that make any sense?

In any event, when large ships continued to be very strong and prevalent in the meta, FFG changed the mob rules to make them still effective but less attractive so they didn't dominate the competitive scene. There's a constant fluidity to game development and responding to trends in the game. If bombers remain really good or too good, there will be adjustments.

Also worth noting is that in the 2016 worlds, 10 of the top 16 lists used one or more of the nerfed cards. No triple bomber lists made the cut, and only one Miranda list did. Oddly enough, a fat Han list made the cut as well.

The meta can, should, and always will be made up of powerful lists. When those lists cross the line into meta-warping that's when we have a problem. Palp/X7 managed to push out most other jousters, warping the game. Pretty much everything could/can prey on swarms/2-attack ships, which tend to be the kinds of things that would eat up turrets and bombers. To be fair to Fat Han, in addition to the scoring change, attack dice/attack dice modification finally caught up to the 3PO/Falcon Evade stack.

Sabine, IMO, is the current leading cause of pushing arc-dodgers out of the meta. BMST and bombs in general hurt their low health, but Sabine's bonus damage (once every round) is a little too much, making one-shots far too likely (seriously, why does 1/3 of a 4-point upgrade need a 25% chance of killing a 35-point ace?). I'm sure I'm a little biased because aces are some of my favorite ships to fly, but running into a powerful enemy squad is one thing, running into hard counters just plain sucks no matter what you're flying.

Quote

Palp/X7 managed to push out most other jousters, warping the game.

Does choking out direct competitors warp the metagame? I wouldn't describe the B-wing killing the X-wing back in Wave 4 to 6 as warping the metagame.

Palpatine was meta-warping in the same way the TIE phantom was: you had to be able to answer PalpAces's extreme defence. This resulted in the rapid discovery of the game's extreme offense lists effectively through natural selection. This cemented the distortion: everything in between died. Lists couldn't survive the TorpScout or Dengaroo firepower and penetrate PalpAces's defences.

The only solution was to clip both ends at once: remove extreme offense and extreme defence simultaneously. Removing one leads to the dominance of the other and accelerates finding another power list to compete. Remember the Howlrunner Swarm took until late Wave 2 to take off despite being present in the game since Wave 1.

5 minutes ago, Blue Five said:

Palpatine was meta-warping in the same way the TIE phantom was: you had to be able to answer PalpAces's extreme defence. This resulted in the rapid discovery of the game's extreme offense lists effectively through natural selection.

It also led to some creation of extreme offense. Because I believe -- no, I have no proof -- some of that was at the instigation of Organized Play (because it shortens games), I think dialing back the extreme offense is not going to happen.

I was planning on flying my first true Palp Aces list tonight, had the list made since last Thursday, but I'd been resistant since I disliked Palp because I found him really not fun to play against at all. Now rather than getting the joy of flying a Palpshuttle before the nerf, I get the joy of flying a Palpshuttle after the nerf

4 hours ago, FatherTurin said:

Woah, guys, I think we all need to take a breath. Miranda and other bombers were used in response to Palp/X7/Manaroo shenanigans all over the place. Sabine backed bombs became one of the only ways Rebel lists could reliably put damage onto x7 defenders and Palp backed fighters. These lists became prevalent BECAUSE of the dominance of Palp and x7 on the imperial side of the meta. Regen and high health (aka Miranda) was necessary due to the disgusting offensive punch of Dengaroo. Plus bombs didn't allow Dengar to shoot back.

Since these lists rose in response to the cards that were nerfed, they are a sign of the meta being warped, not the other way around. You didn't see (to my knowledge anyway) lists being designed around the threat of rebel bombers or even regen, because the reality is those lists were necessary to make it a fair fight.

And as for the other poster who is trying to say that a single tie fighter should have a chance of taking down Poe, Corran or Miranda....are you serious? I mean, there is a chance, you even admitted that, but you seem to want an EVEN chance. A fully kitted out Miranda, Poe or Corran ends up being nearly half of a list. Less for Poe, of course, but the absolute most expensive imperial tie fighter (Howlrunner with a 4 point ept and a shield upgrade) is 26 points. Without upgrades, Corran is 35, Miranda is 29, and Poe is 31 or 33 depending on which flavor you want to run. OF COURSE A SINGLE TIE FIGHTER SHOULD NOT HAVE AN EVEN CHANCE AT TAKING OUT ONE OF THOSE SHIPS. I mean, Jesus.

Obviously you did not read or comprehend my post. I did not say even chance. But some chance instead of theoretical would be good. Why would I waste my points on a ship which at some point of the game can´t destroy my opponent´s ship? So in you mind the points determine which ship even should have the chance to take out a ship? By following that logic, no small ship should be able to take down Decimator or Upsilon on its own.

You probably now see the flaw in your comment. And as for the "You didn't see lists being designed around the threat regen", every competitive list is made so that they have a chance against that. Regeneration is far more better and cheaper than the Emperor ever was.

On 3/7/2017 at 9:45 AM, Nathan29292 said:

A secondary market is only good for any competitive game, so I'm not sure where your snarky response is coming from. Yes, I did get the palp on eBay, because I'm not stupid. If they want me to buy a card at retail, they can package it in an expansion that at least has the potential to see tournament play. I'm not aware of any rules that this breaks. Someone bought it, it's not like I decreased the number of palps in the world. If they want my money directly they can do what's best for the customers and not force someone to buy a $100 expansion for one single upgrade card.

The x7s came from retail. So thanks for your pointless and unhelpful comment.

Ironically, if there was no secondary market you would have never have bought the Raider, never been out the money for an errata'ed second hand card and we wouldn't have seen this post. I'm not seeing the upside to the secondary market.

IMO, if you look at all the changes to the cards from the latest FAQ they require you to fly smarter and better. I think these have been the best changes in a long time, I fly Imperials mainly and I felt that Palp was making the Imperials stale and boring. You didn't have to think too hard with him, pretty much he was do I need to kill something or avoid something. Now he requires a little more thought and I am finding all the whining about him laughable. The game has stepped up a bit and there is less of an easy mode. If you can only fly Palp as an Imperial, I suggest you may need to change to some other game, there are a lot of fantastic Imp ships out there that will hopefully get some play.

At least everyone at tournaments now will either be building for or against RAC-LO.....

18 hours ago, ObiWonka said:

The meta can, should, and always will be made up of powerful lists. When those lists cross the line into meta-warping that's when we have a problem. Palp/X7 managed to push out most other jousters, warping the game. Pretty much everything could/can prey on swarms/2-attack ships, which tend to be the kinds of things that would eat up turrets and bombers. To be fair to Fat Han, in addition to the scoring change, attack dice/attack dice modification finally caught up to the 3PO/Falcon Evade stack.

Sabine, IMO, is the current leading cause of pushing arc-dodgers out of the meta. BMST and bombs in general hurt their low health, but Sabine's bonus damage (once every round) is a little too much, making one-shots far too likely (seriously, why does 1/3 of a 4-point upgrade need a 25% chance of killing a 35-point ace?). I'm sure I'm a little biased because aces are some of my favorite ships to fly, but running into a powerful enemy squad is one thing, running into hard counters just plain sucks no matter what you're flying.

Like arc-dodging, bombing takes skill.

Lt. Blount has a 1 in 3 shot of killing Corran, a 45-point ace, with an AHM.

Bombs are nice but when you're facing a ghost or deci then you'll wish you'd brought something else. And so balance is brought to the meta.

^^^
I've done this with Blount, to both a Corran and a Whisper. Both times I had to very purposely explain what I was doing, because... well nobody flies Blount, and nobody uses AHM.

I didn't even feel bad about it, because these were pre-nerf Phantoms, and hay-day Corran. It was the sweetest schadenfreude.

58 minutes ago, Lampyridae said:

Like arc-dodging, bombing takes skill.

Lt. Blount has a 1 in 3 shot of killing Corran, a 45-point ace, with an AHM.

Bombs are nice but when you're facing a ghost or deci then you'll wish you'd brought something else. And so balance is brought to the meta.

Problems start occurring if there is either too much that preys on Ghosts/Decis (case in which their numbers decrease and bombs dominate) or too little (case in which Ghosts/Decis dominate)

1 hour ago, Lampyridae said:

Lt. Blount has a 1 in 3 shot of killing Corran, a 45-point ace, with an AHM.

Pretty sure it's not 1/3. There are only 7 Direct Hits in the deck, add 3/8 * 2 Major Explosions, and that should be 23.5% at best.

Lt. Blount is a bit of a one-trick pilot, too, and the threat range is only range 2, not anywhere-bombs-can-reach-including-after-SLAM. Yes, he's cheap, but he can't continue bombing after his one shot, or continue dishing out 1 automatic damage per round.

2 minutes ago, ObiWonka said:

Pretty sure it's not 1/3. There are only 7 Direct Hits in the deck, add 3/8 * 2 Major Explosions, and that should be 23.5% at best.

Lt. Blount is a bit of a one-trick pilot, too, and the threat range is only range 2, not anywhere-bombs-can-reach-including-after-SLAM. Yes, he's cheap, but he can't continue bombing after his one shot, or continue dishing out 1 automatic damage per round.

Ah right. I was counting all the "extra damage" cards together.

6 hours ago, ObiWonka said:

Pretty sure it's not 1/3. There are only 7 Direct Hits in the deck, add 3/8 * 2 Major Explosions, and that should be 23.5% at best.

Lt. Blount is a bit of a one-trick pilot, too, and the threat range is only range 2, not anywhere-bombs-can-reach-including-after-SLAM. Yes, he's cheap, but he can't continue bombing after his one shot, or continue dishing out 1 automatic damage per round.

Still, if someone said would you take a 24% shot at killing a 40pt Ace outright would you take it? I am pretty sure everyone would, especially from a cheap ship like Blount.

6 hours ago, ObiWonka said:

Pretty sure it's not 1/3. There are only 7 Direct Hits in the deck, add 3/8 * 2 Major Explosions, and that should be 23.5% at best.

Lt. Blount is a bit of a one-trick pilot, too, and the threat range is only range 2, not anywhere-bombs-can-reach-including-after-SLAM. Yes, he's cheap, but he can't continue bombing after his one shot, or continue dishing out 1 automatic damage per round.

Blount used to be a lot more useful, back when Stealth Device was much more common. There was a time (pre-Palp) when my local meta would staple SD on the likes of Soontir and his buddies. Blount was 17pts of insurance against that. R3 through two rocks at a tokened up Fel? No problem. GG stealth device.

Now, though, his usefulness is confined to Armada.

8 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:

Still, if someone said would you take a 24% shot at killing a 40pt Ace outright would you take it? I am pretty sure everyone would, especially from a cheap ship like Blount.

Obviously you'd take that shot, that's a huge return on the investment. Thing is, it happens once, maximum.

10 minutes ago, ObiWonka said:

Obviously you'd take that shot, that's a huge return on the investment. Thing is, it happens once, maximum.

True, but that's just for instant death. Damaged Cockpit, Damaged Engine ... those are pretty good, too. (And hull can't be regenerated.) It's definitely a good anti-Corran weapon, but a really good target for it isn't in every list.

Oh, and I'm a little bemused by Stealth Device being especially good pre-Palp. Stealth Device's value kicked up a lot because of Palp (and Autothrusters).