So when is Tel Trevura's nerf coming? =P There's clearly a systemic issue with the JumpMaster 5000 that has lead to: R4 Agromech nerf, Deadeye nerf, Zuckuss nerf, and Manaroo nerf. The first two are directly to address the Contracted Scout JM15k alpha strike, Zuckuss nerf is a direct nerf to Dengar, and obviously Manaroo is a direct nerf to Manaroo. It's clear (to me at least) that the ship itself is the problem, not the abilities and capabilities of the pilots of the ship. And in my opinion, it comes down to the white 2 left segnor's loop as the problem.

I find it very interesting that the first (and only) time they gave a white 4k, FFG (and Alex Davy specifically) was very cautious with making it OP, to such an extreme that it took 2 years and an Imp Vets package to make Defenders viable. And yet, the first (and only) time they introduced a white Sloop, which mind you was very shortly after introducing the sloop maneuver itself, they created a monster of a chassis that has been exploiting the meta for the past 18 months.

Let's review for a moment why the white sloop is critical to all of these nerfs. For the JM15k, the original nerf (which pretty much killed it from most top representations) allowed the lead JM5k to sloop out of the way, maintaining range on the opponent, and opening up the placement for #2 and #3 to both get shots in the second round. Ideally, you would have fired 5 torps between the first 2 rounds, and that was all due to the sloop allowing the lead guy to maintain range, arc, and still get his action. The R4 nerf shut this down by forcing you to move to OCR4, giving the lead guy a stress, preventing the R2 focus post white sloop. Had the sloop been red to begin with, there would not have been any issue with JM15k imo.

Then we move on to Zuckus/Dengar. The only reason that Dengar doesn't care at all about stress is that he can quickly turn around via his white sloop to keep everyone in arc. If the sloop was red, then Dengar w/ Zuckuss would have never been a thing as he couldn't afford to never turn around... Just look at the Decimator if you need proof that a PWT without a method to flip around struggles to keep anything in arc. The primary method for the Deci to do that is by utilizing its size and mandatory engine upgrade to boost out of combat and come around for another pass.

Finally, there's Manaroo. I actually don't have anything to say about Manaroo right now in terms of my white sloop argument, but I also thought she was pretty much fine as is, though I wouldn't have minded to see a R1-3 restriction on her. But the R1 is likely going to just kill her off of all viability.

Now, with all of these nerfs, I still maintain that the JM5k is a great ship. Dengar is still an awesome ace, and can make great use out of his crew, EPT, and droid slot now that they're not pre-determined anymore. His ability continues to be fearsome, and the white 2sloop allows him to not only sloop, but also then barrel roll afterwards. If my theory is correct, you're still going to see Dengar dominating the meta, but likely with Mindlink, providing him plenty of access to focuses... Or perhaps putting Bossk crew on him. Or both. With ML and Bossk, he can just stay away from green moves, and maintain at least one stress - he still gets around just as dangerously as before, but now he gets a focus via mindlink, and then a TL+F via Bossk if he doesn't push damage through. Perhaps you even put R4-B11 on him, so then if they attack him, he gets to reroll your greens anyways!

The point is, the JM5k still is a great ship, and it all comes down to the flexibility that the white sloop provides it. And all of these nerfs are a direct result of that maneuver.

Interesting argument. I think in general, though, a few points tacked on the JM5K across the board would've lessened if not invalidated the need for some/all of these nerfs. Sad that so many other cards had to feel the pain instead, but at least the playing field has been leveled in some way.

And arguably we've seen something similar on the white K-turn of the Defender, once it's overcosted basic chassis was addressed.

White flips come close to breaking fundamental 'rules' of the game flow.

The problem with the JM500 has nothing to do with its white sloop(although that is an issue that makes no sense lore wise). The problem is that it is grossly under-costed for the dial it has and the upgrade slots it can utilize. Just bump the base model up to 34 and give it no ept on the generics and you wouldn't have to "nerf" all these other cards. The best example is Deadeye. This card was never, ever used until trip scouts became a thing. Suddenly it was OP and had to be nerfed. Nope, it was the ship not the EPT.

1 hour ago, JJFDVORAK said:

The problem with the JM500 has nothing to do with its white sloop(although that is an issue that makes no sense lore wise). The problem is that it is grossly under-costed for the dial it has and the upgrade slots it can utilize. Just bump the base model up to 34 and give it no ept on the generics and you wouldn't have to "nerf" all these other cards. The best example is Deadeye. This card was never, ever used until trip scouts became a thing. Suddenly it was OP and had to be nerfed. Nope, it was the ship not the EPT.

34? Then it would be basically the worst ship in Scum. Scum already has too many terrible ships.

Let's compare it to its closest relative, the Wild Space Fringer, which comes it at a point cost of 30, with a pilot skill of 2, the same exact Action bar, a crew slot, a missile slot, and a cannon slot. The dial has all the base maneuvers except the 5 forward, and the only red on the dial is a 4K. Greens at the 1 banks, 1 straight, 2 straight. 5 Hull, 5 shields, 2 Agility, PWT 2.

1. Remove 1 Shield (-3 points): The Shield upgrade card is worth 4, but is deliberately over costed. The more accurate number is 3.

2. Remove Missile and Cannon Slot (-1 point): This is more difficult to predict, but from other cards like Sabine's Masterpiece and the Virago title, it seems that FFG prices 2 slots for 1 point.

3. Gain 2 Torp Slots, 1 Illicit Slot, 1 Salvaged Astromech slot (2 points): Using the same logic as above

4. ALL speed 1 and 2 maneuvers to the left are green. Add a WHITE left-sloop, and a Red-Right sloop. (2? Points) This is more difficult to tell, but considering Nien Numb is 1 point, and the Millenium Falcon Title is 1 point, or R2 Astromech is 1 point, or Unhinged is 1 point, I think it is fair to say that the addition of the sloop and the greens to the dial (with only losing the 1 Green bank to the right, and the 3 hards), is a darn good deal, and worth at least 2 points (kind of like a better Falcon title (1.5) plus half a R2 astromech (.5). So 2 seems reasonable.

5. Gain 1 PS (1 point)

6. Gain the EPT slot (1 point)

Based on the Wild Space Fringer, and nothing else, I think it would be reasonable to price the PS3 Contracted Scout, as is, at 32 points. Now, to be fair, that is probably a little overcosted (who played Wild Space Fringers?) and the Outrider was designed to take the title and a Cannon, so, let's give a discount, call it the "Wild Space Fringer Sucks" discount. -2 points.

This leaves us with a 30 point ship, that for all of its options, is still quite good, but not spammable the way it is. I also believe wholeheartedly that the lowest cost generic should never have an EPT, but hey. So if it was 30 points, for the same cost as a Fringer, you are losing 1 shield and two difficult to use slots, for 4 amazing slots that synergize really well with each other, an amazing dial upgrade, 1 PS (that gets you out of Predator territory) and an EPT. That's a darn good deal if you ask me. Oh, wait, it actually costs 25.

As a further point from what I just said, imagine if the Wild Space Fringer was 25 points. You could put three in a list with Heavy Laser Cannons, and still have 4 points to play with. Or you could put a Mangler on one of them and put APL and IA on it to make it a bumpmaster, so to speak. Regardless, with the HLC version, that would be 3 4 die attack ships that are extremely maneuverable. Would it be the best ever? Maybe not, but in the hands of the right player it could wreck face. AND, if you get out of their arc, they still have a turret to plink you away as they get turned around (easy to do for that ship). Man, I kind of want to play this now!

1 hour ago, tortugatron said:

34? Then it would be basically the worst ship in Scum. Scum already has too many terrible ships.

Yeah, 34 was just so you couldn't fly 3 in one list. And Scum already has too many terrible ships? Are we even playing the same game?

13 minutes ago, JJFDVORAK said:

Yeah, 34 was just so you couldn't fly 3 in one list. And Scum already has too many terrible ships? Are we even playing the same game?

K-Fighter, StarViper, G1-A, Scyk (which is a bit better now I guess). And now the YV and Jumpmaster have taken a major hit (but both are still fairly good). Zs are a bit rubbish, Y's aren't all that great. HWKS are at least decent for Scum. Sprays are better than Imps but still suck. Brobots are no longer all that great... At least they still have Fenn and Asajj.

5 hours ago, Khyros said:

So when is Tel Trevura's nerf coming? =P There's clearly a systemic issue with the JumpMaster 5000 that has lead to: R4 Agromech nerf, Deadeye nerf, Zuckuss nerf, and Manaroo nerf. The first two are directly to address the Contracted Scout JM15k alpha strike, Zuckuss nerf is a direct nerf to Dengar, and obviously Manaroo is a direct nerf to Manaroo. It's clear (to me at least) that the ship itself is the problem, not the abilities and capabilities of the pilots of the ship. And in my opinion, it comes down to the white 2 left segnor's loop as the problem.

I find it very interesting that the first (and only) time they gave a white 4k, FFG (and Alex Davy specifically) was very cautious with making it OP, to such an extreme that it took 2 years and an Imp Vets package to make Defenders viable. And yet, the first (and only) time they introduced a white Sloop, which mind you was very shortly after introducing the sloop maneuver itself, they created a monster of a chassis that has been exploiting the meta for the past 18 months.

Let's review for a moment why the white sloop is critical to all of these nerfs. For the JM15k, the original nerf (which pretty much killed it from most top representations) allowed the lead JM5k to sloop out of the way, maintaining range on the opponent, and opening up the placement for #2 and #3 to both get shots in the second round. Ideally, you would have fired 5 torps between the first 2 rounds, and that was all due to the sloop allowing the lead guy to maintain range, arc, and still get his action. The R4 nerf shut this down by forcing you to move to OCR4, giving the lead guy a stress, preventing the R2 focus post white sloop. Had the sloop been red to begin with, there would not have been any issue with JM15k imo.

Then we move on to Zuckus/Dengar. The only reason that Dengar doesn't care at all about stress is that he can quickly turn around via his white sloop to keep everyone in arc. If the sloop was red, then Dengar w/ Zuckuss would have never been a thing as he couldn't afford to never turn around... Just look at the Decimator if you need proof that a PWT without a method to flip around struggles to keep anything in arc. The primary method for the Deci to do that is by utilizing its size and mandatory engine upgrade to boost out of combat and come around for another pass.

Finally, there's Manaroo. I actually don't have anything to say about Manaroo right now in terms of my white sloop argument, but I also thought she was pretty much fine as is, though I wouldn't have minded to see a R1-3 restriction on her. But the R1 is likely going to just kill her off of all viability.

Now, with all of these nerfs, I still maintain that the JM5k is a great ship. Dengar is still an awesome ace, and can make great use out of his crew, EPT, and droid slot now that they're not pre-determined anymore. His ability continues to be fearsome, and the white 2sloop allows him to not only sloop, but also then barrel roll afterwards. If my theory is correct, you're still going to see Dengar dominating the meta, but likely with Mindlink, providing him plenty of access to focuses... Or perhaps putting Bossk crew on him. Or both. With ML and Bossk, he can just stay away from green moves, and maintain at least one stress - he still gets around just as dangerously as before, but now he gets a focus via mindlink, and then a TL+F via Bossk if he doesn't push damage through. Perhaps you even put R4-B11 on him, so then if they attack him, he gets to reroll your greens anyways!

The point is, the JM5k still is a great ship, and it all comes down to the flexibility that the white sloop provides it. And all of these nerfs are a direct result of that maneuver.

R4 agromech was a soft nerf to uboats, but ALSO something that should have happened with the timing changes in the TFA rule book regardless. Zuckuss was a nerf to dengaroo. Not dengar specifically (he can be used in other builds without zuckuss) and also affects the party bus. And a cost increase wouldn't have bothered dengaroo, you could easily get into the low 90s before anyway.

Manaroo's nerf has NOTHING to do with the platform and is entirely based on her ability. It would have been just as good on a z95 as it is on the jump master.

3 hours ago, JJFDVORAK said:

The problem with the JM500 has nothing to do with its white sloop(although that is an issue that makes no sense lore wise). The problem is that it is grossly under-costed for the dial it has and the upgrade slots it can utilize. Just bump the base model up to 34 and give it no ept on the generics and you wouldn't have to "nerf" all these other cards. The best example is Deadeye. This card was never, ever used until trip scouts became a thing. Suddenly it was OP and had to be nerfed. Nope, it was the ship not the EPT.

At 34 points the contracted scout would be literally unplayable as a remotely competitive ship. It IS possible to cost something between the two extremes

1 hour ago, SirCormac said:

Let's compare it to its closest relative, the Wild Space Fringer, which comes it at a point cost of 30, with a pilot skill of 2, the same exact Action bar, a crew slot, a missile slot, and a cannon slot. The dial has all the base maneuvers except the 5 forward, and the only red on the dial is a 4K. Greens at the 1 banks, 1 straight, 2 straight. 5 Hull, 5 shields, 2 Agility, PWT 2.

1. Remove 1 Shield (-3 points): The Shield upgrade card is worth 4, but is deliberately over costed. The more accurate number is 3.

2. Remove Missile and Cannon Slot (-1 point): This is more difficult to predict, but from other cards like Sabine's Masterpiece and the Virago title, it seems that FFG prices 2 slots for 1 point.

3. Gain 2 Torp Slots, 1 Illicit Slot, 1 Salvaged Astromech slot (2 points): Using the same logic as above

4. ALL speed 1 and 2 maneuvers to the left are green. Add a WHITE left-sloop, and a Red-Right sloop. (2? Points) This is more difficult to tell, but considering Nien Numb is 1 point, and the Millenium Falcon Title is 1 point, or R2 Astromech is 1 point, or Unhinged is 1 point, I think it is fair to say that the addition of the sloop and the greens to the dial (with only losing the 1 Green bank to the right, and the 3 hards), is a darn good deal, and worth at least 2 points (kind of like a better Falcon title (1.5) plus half a R2 astromech (.5). So 2 seems reasonable.

5. Gain 1 PS (1 point)

6. Gain the EPT slot (1 point)

Based on the Wild Space Fringer, and nothing else, I think it would be reasonable to price the PS3 Contracted Scout, as is, at 32 points. Now, to be fair, that is probably a little overcosted (who played Wild Space Fringers?) and the Outrider was designed to take the title and a Cannon, so, let's give a discount, call it the "Wild Space Fringer Sucks" discount. -2 points.

This leaves us with a 30 point ship, that for all of its options, is still quite good, but not spammable the way it is. I also believe wholeheartedly that the lowest cost generic should never have an EPT, but hey. So if it was 30 points, for the same cost as a Fringer, you are losing 1 shield and two difficult to use slots, for 4 amazing slots that synergize really well with each other, an amazing dial upgrade, 1 PS (that gets you out of Predator territory) and an EPT. That's a darn good deal if you ask me. Oh, wait, it actually costs 25.

When's the last time you saw the WSF played? Its wildly overcosted. You can't cost a ship based on the comparison to an old, overpriced ship and expect it to be playable. You cost it based on how it should ACTUALLY be costed, regardless if it makes an old ship look even worse. See the protectorate star fighter compared to the StarViper.

34 minutes ago, JJFDVORAK said:

Yeah, 34 was just so you couldn't fly 3 in one list. And Scum already has too many terrible ships? Are we even playing the same game?

Kihraxz. Scyk (on release). StarViper. G1A is hardly used either. YV666 saw basically no use before zuckuss and dengar came out. Fire spray is hardly ever used. Scum barely had anything competitive before wave 8 came out. They could barely get by with brobots and quad tlt, that was about it. 2 ships in the entire faction before wave 8. And one of those was stolen from the rebels

7 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

When's the last time you saw the WSF played? Its wildly overcosted. You can't cost a ship based on the comparison to an old, overpriced ship and expect it to be playable. You cost it based on how it should ACTUALLY be costed, regardless if it makes an old ship look even worse. See the protectorate star fighter compared to the StarViper.

This. The JM5K is almost certainly a result of the dev team being overly aggressive in pricing it, as a result of the Wild Space Fringer being such a flop. The result is hardly ideal, but at least they didn't make the same mistake twice (three times if you count the outer rim smuggler). Hopefully they learn from the JM5K as well, and any future ships of a comparable nature will strike a balance.

30 minutes ago, Squark said:

This. The JM5K is almost certainly a result of the dev team being overly aggressive in pricing it, as a result of the Wild Space Fringer being such a flop. The result is hardly ideal, but at least they didn't make the same mistake twice (three times if you count the outer rim smuggler). Hopefully they learn from the JM5K as well, and any future ships of a comparable nature will strike a balance.

To be fair, I did mention that Wild Space Fringers are overcosted, and gave a 2 point reduction because of it. Regardless, the general sense of the community is that the JM5K probably should cost somewhere between 28 and 30, (aka it is 3-5 points undercosted) so my analysis still stands, even if it at the high end of that price market. On the subject of the WSF, there actually was someone who made good use of a HLC, WITHOUT THE TITLE, Space Fringer with some Zs and a Y recently, which is pretty crazy. The good news is that FFG is finally willing to get down and dirty and change card text. The bad news is that they aren't quite at the point of changing costs yet, which I hope with this recent set of FAQ, they start to do. If the text on the card is completely wrong, what does it matter if the cost of the ship is correct? At the least, I am still holding out hope for a Major Rhymer errata, -3 points. That guy could be competitive. Amazing what 3 points will do.

5 minutes ago, SirCormac said:

The bad news is that they aren't quite at the point of changing costs yet, which I hope with this recent set of FAQ, they start to do. If the text on the card is completely wrong, what does it matter if the cost of the ship is correct?

I agree with you, strongly, but there is a genuine difference: when checking squadron costs, TOs are checking point values, not card text.

(That said, this is by absolutely no means a stopper, IMO. First, players should use squadron sheets or builder printouts. Second, most TOs will be just as aware of point changes as they will be of text/mechanical changes.)

20 minutes ago, SirCormac said:

To be fair, I did mention that Wild Space Fringers are overcosted, and gave a 2 point reduction because of it. Regardless, the general sense of the community is that the JM5K probably should cost somewhere between 28 and 30, (aka it is 3-5 points undercosted) so my analysis still stands, even if it at the high end of that price market. On the subject of the WSF, there actually was someone who made good use of a HLC, WITHOUT THE TITLE, Space Fringer with some Zs and a Y recently, which is pretty crazy. The good news is that FFG is finally willing to get down and dirty and change card text. The bad news is that they aren't quite at the point of changing costs yet, which I hope with this recent set of FAQ, they start to do. If the text on the card is completely wrong, what does it matter if the cost of the ship is correct? At the least, I am still holding out hope for a Major Rhymer errata, -3 points. That guy could be competitive. Amazing what 3 points will do.

The community thinks it's 3-5 points undercostwr? Most people I've seen talk about it have said ~2 points. I'm not even convinced on that at this point. I don't think I've ever seen anyone suggest it was 5 points too cheap that wasn't making a horrible comparison to the WSF (which I think is probably more then 2 points overcosted).

Is love to see rhymer price drop