3 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

I never said it was a bad fleet. It's cheesy because it abuses ramming, which aren't good rules to begin with, and with Rieekan, you have no punishment for ramming. It's a solid fleet, but it circumnavigates a large portion of the strategy of the game, which is maneuvering and lining up shots.

And what if FFG knows the ramming rules suck and doesn't do anything stupid like forcing ships to ram?

Also, you can only have 1 Demo in your fleet. Not 8 undying CR90Bs that run into your face and double arc before hitting you for another UNPREVENTABLE 2 damage. It may be fun for you, but how in the world is it fun for anyone else to play against it? I consider this similar to non-engagement for 6 rounds just to launch your fighters forward to kill something for a 6-5. I don't want to play against it, not because it's hard to beat, but because the game is boring.

That said, I don't think your main focus should be on making sure your opponent is having fun, but rather the fun is derived from the ebb and flow of the game.

Maybe you feel its boring because ramming takes out the randomness of the dice of the equation. You cant blame peolpe for that when this game consist on deliver as much damage as possible. You are not doing it for free though. While an ISD properly equipped can oneshot any medium-small size rebel ship ensuring damage outputs with constant rerolls and equipment/commander(vader).

The problem is that the community tends to build the perfect fleet lowering the random factor to its best. The result was obvious. The only thing in armada that delivers 100% damage is sw7 and ramming. Maybe the solution for this is a change on the overlapping ships rules, maybe a change that make an overlapping ship move in contact to the opposite hullzone of the overlapped ship with its opposite overlapping hull. But then you imps would be complaining about how corvettes can so easily run out of your front hull. So I guess the change for you to be happy would be that overlapping just does not cause damage to anyone so you can free shoot anything everytime by just moving forward at speed 1. That does not sound boring at all.

30 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Great argument. :]

Also, great condescension.

43 minutes ago, xerpo said:

Maybe you feel its boring because ramming takes out the randomness of the dice of the equation. You cant blame peolpe for that when this game consist on deliver as much damage as possible. You are not doing it for free though. While an ISD properly equipped can oneshot any medium-small size rebel ship ensuring damage outputs with constant rerolls and equipment/commander(vader).

The problem is that the community tends to build the perfect fleet lowering the random factor to its best. The result was obvious. The only thing in armada that delivers 100% damage is sw7 and ramming. Maybe the solution for this is a change on the overlapping ships rules, maybe a change that make an overlapping ship move in contact to the opposite hullzone of the overlapped ship with its opposite overlapping hull. But then you imps would be complaining about how corvettes can so easily run out of your front hull. So I guess the change for you to be happy would be that overlapping just does not cause damage to anyone so you can free shoot anything everytime by just moving forward at speed 1. That does not sound boring at all.

What are you talking about? I never said I wanted ramming to deal no damage. I think ramming should be limited to 1 damage for both ships, regardless how many times you ram.

Yeah it seems really difficult for people to understand that we have no issue whatsoever with the idea of ramming. Everybody keeps making comments in the defense of ramming. It's just the ET double ram that's an issue.

1 hour ago, WuFame said:

Yeah it seems really difficult for people to understand that we have no issue whatsoever with the idea of ramming. Everybody keeps making comments in the defense of ramming. It's just the ET double ram that's an issue.

ET was not supposed to be used for ramming, as H9 was not supposed to be the must have for transport killing as it came out way before them, as minister Tua was not supposed to make gozantis almost immortal, and many other "unfair" combos that you can imagine. But hey, people make the best with what the game provides. If you think double ramming is unfair and should be changed then all things mentioned above should be changed aswell and we would have a game fitting the liking of 3 people that had a bad day facing an imaginative list, or maybe you should adapt and change your play style.

The most broken things in game are actually Rhymmer and Demolisher, their "game-changing rules" are utterly above everything in the game. Ive never faced from wave 3 on a single gladiator that was not Demolisher. In my my opinion for the cost of Rhymmer it should be adapted to give away its insane skill to bomber squadrons only as it makes no sense at all seeing regular ties sniping ships, with what? Extra precise long range green superlasers?

But thats ok, they crushed me a couple of times and now I know mostly how to deal with them, and understanding that new and casual players need something to have fun with too, as they dont require much of a headache to make them work.

Disclaimer: IMHO

If you read my post on page 4, I don't even necessarily know that ET double ram is warping the meta or even has the capability to warp the meta. The reason it should be changed is just because it's reached a point where I actually believe it's damaging to the game. Rhymer and Demo are being used for their intended purpose, but even still they should be evaluated if the meta is being warped around them. I personally believe in wave 2 the meta was being warped around Rhymer and Demo but I don't believe it is any longer. Demo got cut down a lot from activation spam thanks to flots, and the squadron game has just been completely shook up. In the end, there's also only one Demo and one Rhymer.

I don't believe the intended purpose of ET was to support a fleet where you double ram ISDs to death and that's why I would push harder for it to be errata'd than say Demo or Rhymer. Again, all things should be considered for errata if they begin to warp the meta. I personally think ET should be erratad now, before it begins to warp the meta. That's my main point. Allowing it to get to the point where someone gets to top 4 at World's with it just casts a silly light on an otherwise great game.

1 hour ago, WuFame said:

Yeah it seems really difficult for people to understand that we have no issue whatsoever with the idea of ramming. Everybody keeps making comments in the defense of ramming. It's just the ET double ram that's an issue.

Here's the thing, I, and others here, don't really have a problem with the ET double ram either. Like everything, this Rieekan ram swarm build has weaknesses that can be exploited. It just so happens that the current meta has shifted away from things that can give it trouble. There are tons of flotillas and small ships out there, but not a whole lot of larger ships. This is just another method of countering the flotilla crazed meta. Just because some people find it distasteful doesn't mean that those that enjoy it shouldn't get to take advantage of perfectly legitimate way of playing. It's not like you don't pay for it. A CR90B with ETs and RBDs costs more than a TRC90, which is arguably more effective against more things with a lot less risk.

20 minutes ago, Truthiness said:

Here's the thing, I, and others here, don't really have a problem with the ET double ram either. Like everything, this Rieekan ram swarm build has weaknesses that can be exploited. It just so happens that the current meta has shifted away from things that can give it trouble. There are tons of flotillas and small ships out there, but not a whole lot of larger ships. This is just another method of countering the flotilla crazed meta. Just because some people find it distasteful doesn't mean that those that enjoy it shouldn't get to take advantage of perfectly legitimate way of playing. It's not like you don't pay for it. A CR90B with ETs and RBDs costs more than a TRC90, which is arguably more effective against more things with a lot less risk.

At the end of the day, if you are fine with a competitive fleet in Armada being a demo derby, then we just have a fundamental difference in opinion, and I'm totally cool with that. We just won't agree. Nothing wrong with that.

As long as you understand that my point is that I feel ET-double ram, at it's core, is an unfun mechanic, not that it's not counterable, not that it's warping the meta; those are two things we all already agree should make something subject to change. To me, it's just an unfun mechanic that damages the game and it's only become problematic now because it's reached a point where it's a competative unfun mechanic.

Edit: As a TRC90 scumbag, I have had many conversations discussing whether or not TRCs are OP. I tend to lean toward yes.

Second edit: I feel like Dras hitting ctrl+i so often.

15 hours ago, TheCallum said:

To be honest, I'd like to see Demo been added to tournament ban list.

It would be nice seeing Gladiators be Gladiators and not Demolishers.

I feel there is a huge restriction on what the devs can do with black dice upgrades (for all slots) in world where Demo exists, removing that worry will open the field.

Then when the next campaign comes out, they can replace it with a different title.

From my cold, dead fingers.

Not that I actually tournament play anyway.

1 hour ago, WuFame said:

At the end of the day, if you are fine with a competitive fleet in Armada being a demo derby, then we just have a fundamental difference in opinion, and I'm totally cool with that. We just won't agree. Nothing wrong with that.

As long as you understand that my point is that I feel ET-double ram, at it's core, is an unfun mechanic, not that it's not counterable, not that it's warping the meta; those are two things we all already agree should make something subject to change. To me, it's just an unfun mechanic that damages the game and it's only become problematic now because it's reached a point where it's a competative unfun mechanic.

Edit: As a TRC90 scumbag, I have had many conversations discussing whether or not TRCs are OP. I tend to lean toward yes.

Guess we just have a fundamental difference of opinion then. I can't see myself running the full ram-spam myself, but who am I to judge what someone else enjoys? How is that any different than the people who hate squadrons being prevalent because "if they wanted that, they'd just play X-Wing"? It's a preference and opinion. I've started including a couple rammers in my list for utility and you know what? I had a lot of fun with it. So did my opponents. This comes down to wanting to nerf something proactively because of an opinion of the tactic.

And God no TRC90s aren't OP, and I hardly use them.

6 minutes ago, Truthiness said:

This comes down to wanting to nerf something proactively because of an opinion of the tactic.

It's almost like from the very beginning I made that extremely clear.

Quote

All that aside, my main opinion, which I understand by it's nature is subjective, is that the mechanic itself is just not a fun mechanic and it makes the game look bad to both people outside of the game and inside of the game.

20 minutes ago, Truthiness said:

And God no TRC90s aren't OP, and I hardly use them.

I actually flip flop a lot on this topic. I think if they are OP at all, it's just barely so.

A lot of this just stems from the fact that I've brought TRC90 swarms to 3 regionals and ranked well at all of them, and I don't really consider myself an exceptional player. TRCs just carry me well.

That said, they are really only great on CR90s, which are pretty fragile ships so that balances it. Like I said, I flip flop a lot on them.

What I find ironic about this circular debate is the amount of OPINIONS being treated as facts. WuFame and I clearly are of the opinion that ET being used as ram machines are boring, unfun, and should be nerfed so we don't play Star Wars demo derby (ha! a pun). And yet people are claiming Demo and Rhymer need to be nerfed because how "broken" they are, in their opinion. I think neither are broken nor need to be nerfed because they were designed specifically for their purpose - Demo gets to attack after moving and Rhymer gets to increase bombing range. ET, however, was likely not designed to be used as a battering ram. Since it came out in wave 1, I'd assume FFG meant it to be used to increase the maneuverability of ships. I could be wrong. Maybe FFG meant for ET to be used as rams with Rieekan, in which case I question where FFG is trying to take the game.

I think part of the dissonance is coming from the fact that you guys can see the ram spam as POTENTIALLY competitive, and others (myself among them) just can't really see it in execution.

These are valid, differing opinions. I personally think that running a ramming list is not particularly fun to play with or against. I also don't think it could possibly reach competitive levels.

That being said, I don't play in "real" tournaments and no one I have ever played even owns enough CR90s to field it. So I don't know if it would work in a competitive environment or not.

Ultimately, my take on it is similar to fortressing in X-Wing. It's lame and against the nature of the game. It has not exploded on the scene to take the game by storm for a multitude of reasons. If an opponent tried to drop a ram spam list against me, my reaction might very well be the same as against someone who dropped a fortress list in X-Wing: pack up, go home, and play some Horizon: Zero Dawn. My entertainment hours are limited, and I'm not going to play against someone who is trying to play a different game than me.

I guess what I'm saying is that in sum and substance I agree with @WuFame and @Undeadguy. I just don't think it's at the point where it needs a preemptive nerf. I'd be totally fine with one, I just don't think it's needed.

And those are differing opinions, and that's cool.

7 minutes ago, FatherTurin said:

I think part of the dissonance is coming from the fact that you guys can see the ram spam as POTENTIALLY competitive, and others (myself among them) just can't really see it in execution.

These are valid, differing opinions. I personally think that running a ramming list is not particularly fun to play with or against. I also don't think it could possibly reach competitive levels.

That being said, I don't play in "real" tournaments and no one I have ever played even owns enough CR90s to field it. So I don't know if it would work in a competitive environment or not.

Ultimately, my take on it is similar to fortressing in X-Wing. It's lame and against the nature of the game. It has not exploded on the scene to take the game by storm for a multitude of reasons. If an opponent tried to drop a ram spam list against me, my reaction might very well be the same as against someone who dropped a fortress list in X-Wing: pack up, go home, and play some Horizon: Zero Dawn. My entertainment hours are limited, and I'm not going to play against someone who is trying to play a different game than me.

I guess what I'm saying is that in sum and substance I agree with @WuFame and @Undeadguy. I just don't think it's at the point where it needs a preemptive nerf. I'd be totally fine with one, I just don't think it's needed.

And those are differing opinions, and that's cool.

Re: Ram Spam Competitive Viablity

While I would agree in that I don't believe it wins big enough (MoV) to make a cut at say a nationals/worlds/large regionals, it did in fact win Pittsburgh regionals. So I think viability in a vast majority of situations you are like to see it in is proven.

As long as we're offering opinions, I hate ram fleet.

And also I am of the opinion that my opinion is just a fantastic opinion. The best. Top notch.

I have it on the best authority that @Madaghmire has the best opinions. They are fantastic opinions, really, and he has the best words.

#MakeArmadaGreatAgain

16 hours ago, Gadgetron said:

I think Devastator needs to be retooled entirely, or slash its points significantly. Right now Vaders personal Star Destroyer doesn't even see use in thematic games its so atrocious! If rather than discarded defense tokens, it were exhausted defense tokens, it MIGHT see use. If you could voluntarily exhaust those tokens, it WOULD see use.

I think Rieekan needs looking at, his ability is just too much, I mean destroying a ship is the most central part of this game, and he just says no. If not outright changed, at least make it only effect ships other than the one hes on, and only WHILE he's alive.

Akbars ability might need restricting to once per ship activation, especially if rebels are going to get (looking to the future) a combat flotilla.

Rhymer should probably be restricted to only fighters with the bomber keyword (it's both less broken, and more themey.)

You can total nerf ackbar by simply staying in the front arc. I dont use ackbar anymore due to cost and a smart opponent can aviod those side arcs

Well the good thing is FFG have made it pretty clear by their actions in Xwing that they aren't scared of fixing the game if they aren't happy with it.

6 hours ago, mobow213 said:

You can total nerf ackbar by simply staying in the front arc. I dont use ackbar anymore due to cost and a smart opponent can aviod those side arcs

That's pretty easily said, its pretty difficult to avoid the giant broadsides that are rebel ships. The reality of Akbar is that hes basically a 4 die upgrade to all ships at a minimal cost.

8 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

What I find ironic about this circular debate is the amount of OPINIONS being treated as facts. WuFame and I clearly are of the opinion that ET being used as ram machines are boring, unfun, and should be nerfed so we don't play Star Wars demo derby (ha! a pun). And yet people are claiming Demo and Rhymer need to be nerfed because how "broken" they are, in their opinion. I think neither are broken nor need to be nerfed because they were designed specifically for their purpose - Demo gets to attack after moving and Rhymer gets to increase bombing range. ET, however, was likely not designed to be used as a battering ram. Since it came out in wave 1, I'd assume FFG meant it to be used to increase the maneuverability of ships. I could be wrong. Maybe FFG meant for ET to be used as rams with Rieekan, in which case I question where FFG is trying to take the game.

I also don't want Rhymer or Demolisher changed. #ArmadaIsAlreadyGreat #LeaveMahShitAlone

If they were going to errata stuff like Rhymer, Demo, Yavaris etc. I think that would have happened a long time ago.

Which makes me think Armada doesn't really warrant any errata atm, but the X-wing article got me thinking.

What IF we get errata. What would it be?

1 hour ago, Green Knight said:

What IF we get errata. What would it be?

Well played, Mr. Knight. The circle is now complete.

What I'd like to know is: "What would @Worthington FFG III do?"

8 hours ago, FatherTurin said:

I think part of the dissonance is coming from the fact that you guys can see the ram spam as POTENTIALLY competitive, and others (myself among them) just can't really see it in execution.

These are valid, differing opinions. I personally think that running a ramming list is not particularly fun to play with or against. I also don't think it could possibly reach competitive levels.

That being said, I don't play in "real" tournaments and no one I have ever played even owns enough CR90s to field it. So I don't know if it would work in a competitive environment or not.

Ultimately, my take on it is similar to fortressing in X-Wing. It's lame and against the nature of the game. It has not exploded on the scene to take the game by storm for a multitude of reasons. If an opponent tried to drop a ram spam list against me, my reaction might very well be the same as against someone who dropped a fortress list in X-Wing: pack up, go home, and play some Horizon: Zero Dawn. My entertainment hours are limited, and I'm not going to play against someone who is trying to play a different game than me.

I guess what I'm saying is that in sum and substance I agree with @WuFame and @Undeadguy. I just don't think it's at the point where it needs a preemptive nerf. I'd be totally fine with one, I just don't think it's needed.

And those are differing opinions, and that's cool.

I agree with you, but I think proactive erratas can help protect the game, instead of retroactive errata after the damage is done, like what X-wing just went through. How much damage would an ET nerf really do to the game? CR90s can no longer ram lifeboat flotillas in 2 turns. Demo can no longer double ram for the kill. CR90 ram swarm is no longer viable. QS can no longer double ram.

I'd like to see Rieekan's ability come with an opportunity cost of some sort. For example, only affecting ships and squadrons that have not activated yet. This prevents a pile of mobile corpses cluttering up the table and nullifying legitimate strategy, while still keeping true to his intended function. One example is that this would prevent complete lockdown of multiple squadrons by a single named Escort squadron for the duration of the round. If the player wants an effect to say on the board they'll have to delay activation as long as possible.

The inteded function of Rieekan is fine, but for too many ships and squadrons there is absolutely no downside. Ackbar and Sato have important caveats and trade-offs. Mon Mothma and Cracken offer a minor defensive buff globally. Dodanna has a cool effect, but it's unreliable. Garm only activates twice per game.

Rieekan has no negative. Lost a ship? Rieekan says don't worry about it. Squadrons are getting overrun? Throw Wedge in there and don't worry about it. Your strategy depends on ramming your own ships to death without any effort at preservation? Don't worry about it. Can't be bothered to try softening up a fleet ahead of your big assault? Don't worry about it.

Rieekan's got you covered, as long as you don't completely die until next turn.

50 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

I'd like to see Rieekan's ability come with an opportunity cost of some sort. For example, only affecting ships and squadrons that have not activated yet. This prevents a pile of mobile corpses cluttering up the table and nullifying legitimate strategy, while still keeping true to his intended function. One example is that this would prevent complete lockdown of multiple squadrons by a single named Escort squadron for the duration of the round. If the player wants an effect to say on the board they'll have to delay activation as long as possible.

The inteded function of Rieekan is fine, but for too many ships and squadrons there is absolutely no downside. Ackbar and Sato have important caveats and trade-offs. Mon Mothma and Cracken offer a minor defensive buff globally. Dodanna has a cool effect, but it's unreliable. Garm only activates twice per game.

Rieekan has no negative. Lost a ship? Rieekan says don't worry about it. Squadrons are getting overrun? Throw Wedge in there and don't worry about it. Your strategy depends on ramming your own ships to death without any effort at preservation? Don't worry about it. Can't be bothered to try softening up a fleet ahead of your big assault? Don't worry about it.

Rieekan's got you covered, as long as you don't completely die until next turn.

Interesting.

In fact, that's what they're errataing stuff for in X-wing - too great a range and not having an opportunity cost and/or real counterplay.