See, especially as a group, if people are being ill-intentioned, insulting and do it as a group, they are acting like bullies. And being condescending. So, here, as requested. (And its also old boys club behavior, which is particularly disgusting).

And also not responding to argument points.

This is also the errata thread. Where, people yknow, suggest changes to the game.

10 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

I've been having a lot of fun with ISD1's of late. The best part is, if you're frugal with your points, you can still fit in some pretty nice meat into the list with two of them.

ugh, i know. @Snipafist has convinced a solid 2/3 of our meta to adopt the ISD-I Murderbot (OE, H9, High capacity ion turbines). Pick an arc, dont be there else you gonna DIE.

Clearly ISDs are OP and need a nerf. Shmitty's data shows it, they're in 65% of lists! /sarcasm

Also next Regionals season I aim to improve those Rebel large ship numbers. I need a training montage first though!

Why no Tagge love here? I use him more often then most imperial admirals. As for order of imp admirals best to worst:

1: Jerjy: absolutely great guy here, as long as you have extra shields, you can keep spinning your vsds in circles.

2: Screed: nothing better than Demo going in a fleet with screed, and for his price he's just a good filler admiral if nothing else.

3: Tagge: really great for CC and arkittens. Also goes nice with anything else fast.

4: Motti: put the training wheels on and roll out. I like him but find him boring and often being a tank doesn't work as well as being a fine tuned attack force. But he's still great.

5: Tarkin: long live super-carriers, he's fun but too **** expensive.

6: Vader: haven't used him enough to be sure of making him so low on the list, but I haven't been too impressed.

7: Ozzel: raider MSU! Always fun but wouldn't try to use him competitively.

8: Konstantine: ugh, no...

this of course is just my opinion of admiral viability and favoritism?

3 minutes ago, geek19 said:

ugh, i know. @Snipafist has convinced a solid 2/3 of our meta to adopt the ISD-I Murderbot (OE, H9, High capacity ion turbines). Pick an arc, dont be there else you gonna DIE.

I'm unconvinced by that one. You're spending more than an ISD-II with SW-7s, and...I dunno, just doesn't feel as effective. Blue dice with SW-7s always do something. Although I confess high-capacity ions on an ISD-I are not something I had really thought of - adding blue dice where you otherwise wouldn't have them seems...handy enough. So expensive, though...and you need two Liberties to even have the option...

16 minutes ago, xanderf said:

I'm unconvinced by that one. You're spending more than an ISD-II with SW-7s, and...I dunno, just doesn't feel as effective. Blue dice with SW-7s always do something. Although I confess high-capacity ions on an ISD-I are not something I had really thought of - adding blue dice where you otherwise wouldn't have them seems...handy enough. So expensive, though...and you need two Liberties to even have the option...

The guaranteed accuracy from every hull zone backed by the hitting power of the ISD-I is quite swell at simply making smaller ships evaporate, even with the side arcs. The High Capacity Ion Turbines are what tie together with the H9s to make it possible and the Ordnance Experts to ramp up the damage for cheap. I don't dispute it is expensive at 130 points (plus any extras you wish to spend on title or officer) but it's less so than the usual decked-out ISD-II with Gunnery Teams, XI7s, ECMs and Leading Shots (144+). It's used a lot differently from an ISD-II, though. It needs to get in there and wreck some faces while swatting down the smaller fish trying to sneak away.

I prefer it with Jerry for the better maneuverability, if that helps any. You could run something similar with Vader or Motti, though.

Cheap ISD-Is are cool too.

That's a great ISD-1 build, one that I've recommended to some of our locals as well. I think one builds ISD-1s and 2s very different, and they end up with different fleet roles. I like the OE/H9/HCIT because now you're more invested in double-arcing a major target or just maximizing use out of your side arc if the opponent gives you that shot. One critical aspect of the build is that in a 6 round game it isn't merely about doing more damage, but doing exactly the damage you need exactly when you need it, and token mitigation in terms of at least one guaranteed accuracy is powerful.

7 minutes ago, xanderf said:

I'm unconvinced by that one. You're spending more than an ISD-II with SW-7s, and...I dunno, just doesn't feel as effective. Blue dice with SW-7s always do something. Although I confess high-capacity ions on an ISD-I are not something I had really thought of - adding blue dice where you otherwise wouldn't have them seems...handy enough. So expensive, though...and you need two Liberties to even have the option...

But, are you only taking SW-7's on that ISD2? That ISD1 build not only makes you super deadly out that front arc at close, but also makes the side arcs deadly for flotillas, corvettes, and serious business for anything with just one ________ token. It makes double arcs way nastier, too, by forcing tough decisions for ECM-users or ships that don't want to burn tokens (so... everything).

54 minutes ago, Jukey said:

Why no Tagge love here? I use him more often then most imperial admirals. As for order of imp admirals best to worst:

It's not just here. There's not a lot of Tagge love anywhere according to shmitty's data.

The game really needs two things,

You can only reroll the same die once, like in x-wing.

If an opponent has more activations than you, you may pass, like imperial assault and was auto-included in Destiny from the very beginning.

5 minutes ago, Mep said:

The game really needs two things,

You can only reroll the same die once, like in x-wing.

If an opponent has more activations than you, you may pass, like imperial assault and was auto-included in Destiny from the very beginning.

I'm not sure if the game needs those things, but I'd be extremely interested to see how those things affect the game. The activation war does tend to bore me. Dice rerolling... eh. I'm fine with it really. I do think like 3 BCC rerolls is lawlsy but I also think paying for 3 BCCs is lawlsy so you might as well get your money's worth.

6 minutes ago, WuFame said:

I do think like 3 BCC rerolls is lawlsy but I also think paying for 3 BCCs is lawlsy so you might as well get your money's worth.

Yup, what I've been feeling. If I'm investing 52 points in 2 BCCs plus the 130 odd points in squadrons, it's enough mitigation that being able to reroll twice is fair.

@pt106 you make Tagge shine, I will work on Konstantine.

Konstantine rules.

8 minutes ago, Mep said:

The game really needs two things,

You can only reroll the same die once, like in x-wing.

If an opponent has more activations than you, you may pass, like imperial assault and was auto-included in Destiny from the very beginning.

I disagree on both points, but I'd be interested to hear your justification...?

You pay points for both. For the former, you get diminishing returns on linearly-scaling upgrade costs--generally inefficient, though can be built for. For the latter, any fleet can pay at most 23 points for a pass. That's a fantastic way to implement the pass mechanic, IMO.

1 minute ago, Ardaedhel said:

but I'd be interested to hear your justification...?

Don't do it, it's a trap!

Just now, Ginkapo said:

@pt106 you make Tagge shine, I will work on Konstantine.

Konstantine rules.

I've been trying with Konstantine. I love playing with him, I just don't have the time to get in a lot of games right now so I haven't made a lot of progress...

I'm convinced you guys are only playing Konstantine and Tagge to be rebels... in which case you could just play Rebels.

1 minute ago, geek19 said:

Yup, what I've been feeling. If I'm investing 52 points in 2 BCCs plus the 130 odd points in squadrons, it's enough mitigation that being able to reroll twice is fair.

If they changed the rule to a source can only allow you to reroll once (so no rerolling from a same named upgrade) then you only need invest in one. Then you aren't spending those extra points, if you still want 2, in case one goes down, then your paying points for redundancy and reliability

2 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

You pay points for both. For the former, you get diminishing returns on linearly-scaling upgrade costs--generally inefficient, though can be built for. For the latter, any fleet can pay at most 23 points for a pass. That's a fantastic way to implement the pass mechanic, IMO.

However MSU lists ALSO only need pay 23 points to further offset the activation advantage.

4 minutes ago, WuFame said:

I'm convinced you guys are only playing Konstantine and Tagge to be rebels... in which case you could just play Rebels.

I am a jerk.

There is nothing better in life than destroying your opponents ships by making them fly of the table. You thought ramming was bad....

Konstantine interdictors tractors strategic slicers all come together to control a game. Its the equivalent of taking your ball home and refusing to play with the other kids

9 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

I disagree on both points, but I'd be interested to hear your justification...?

You pay points for both. For the former, you get diminishing returns on linearly-scaling upgrade costs--generally inefficient, though can be built for. For the latter, any fleet can pay at most 23 points for a pass. That's a fantastic way to implement the pass mechanic, IMO.

This game isn't nearly played as much as other games so it doesn't get the maturity some of the others do. The rerolling the dice until you get the result you want kinda makes having dice pointless. However having that one reroll is fine when paid for. As for the activations, well that is a huge problem with this game, and more activations just means longer drawn out games. Simply put, is bad for game play, bad for support of this game by stores and really makes for an unbalanced game. Imperial Assault needed it and it didn't even have the time or space problems. Having an extra activation just cause it is cheap and gives a game advantage can be discouraged by removing the game advantage. Then that activation needs to be worth something, not just a delay tactic in a game too long for game stores to want to support as is.

5 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

I am a jerk.

There is nothing better in life than destroying your opponents ships by making them fly of the table. You thought ramming was bad....

Konstantine interdictors tractors strategic slicers all come together to control a game. Its the equivalent of taking your ball home and refusing to play with the other kids

I played around with him a lot when Wave 4 first hit and tried to do similar things but it just never felt right. I love being proved wrong though.

24 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

I've been trying with Konstantine. I love playing with him, I just don't have the time to get in a lot of games right now so I haven't made a lot of progress...

Ard who is the guy in our group who plays Tagge?

4 minutes ago, Mep said:

This game isn't nearly played as much as other games so it doesn't get the maturity some of the others do. The rerolling the dice until you get the result you want kinda makes having dice pointless. However having that one reroll is fine when paid for. As for the activations, well that is a huge problem with this game, and more activations just means longer drawn out games. Simply put, is bad for game play, bad for support of this game by stores and really makes for an unbalanced game. Imperial Assault needed it and it didn't even have the time or space problems. Having an extra activation just cause it is cheap and gives a game advantage can be discouraged by removing the game advantage. Then that activation needs to be worth something, not just a delay tactic in a game too long for game stores to want to support as is.

Rerolling dice is fine. You pay multiple times to reroll multiple dice. Ironically, having stable dice will speed the game up since you are killing things.

Long drawn out games happne because players don't know what they are doing. I'm a pretty quick player. My games tend to last about 90 minutes or shorter if we both know what we are doing. I just started playing an MSU with 2 Comms Nets and I realized my games take longer because I need to plan out how I need to activate and pass tokens around. Since my highest command is 2, it's important I have the correct tokens going to ships and I still am learning how to do that. Practice will make games go quicker, and having an activation passing mechanic will not resolve the time length issue.

Plus, IA is a different game that had its own problems with the 4x4 list or whatever. I have yet to see an issue where having less than 4 activations is impossible to play. One outcome of this is people take less ships and take my squads since they can pass. Squads tend to be the longest part of the game.

I'm not convinced the activation thing is a problem, and even if I was, I don't think a passing mechanic is the way to go.

Just now, TallGiraffe said:

Ard who is the guy in our group who plays Tagge?

Michael. Just played him the other day. He used him well. With an Interdictor, no less.

3 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Disagree: The main problem is that large ship fleets and multiple large ship fleets have TWO meta weaknesses that can't be partially mitigated in list building, to MSU and to mass squadron.

And a reminder that loading up on enough squadrons to beat a dedicated 134 bomber list with tons of squadron helping upgrades neuters your list against squadron light lists.

At some point you start to notice you're losing considerable ship firepower, again neutering your list against other threats.

I really wouldn't hate it if they created errata to let the 'swarm' keyword work with anti-ship attacks, too. Suddenly the 6-or-so TIE squadrons you need to bring to have a prayer of dealing with Rebel fighter superiority actually have SOME value once the enemy fighters are gone.

This is the REAL problem the Empire faces at the moment - if you do strong anti-squadron...you are crap at anti-ship. You go strong anti-ship...you've got poor squadron defense. Trying to go 50/50 means you just fail at both. Rebels just bring X-Wings, with a small handful of varied wingmen, and both topics are 100% covered.

Frustrating!