1 hour ago, thecactusman17 said:

I'd like to see Rieekan's ability come with an opportunity cost of some sort. For example, only affecting ships and squadrons that have not activated yet. This prevents a pile of mobile corpses cluttering up the table and nullifying legitimate strategy, while still keeping true to his intended function. One example is that this would prevent complete lockdown of multiple squadrons by a single named Escort squadron for the duration of the round. If the player wants an effect to say on the board they'll have to delay activation as long as possible.

The inteded function of Rieekan is fine, but for too many ships and squadrons there is absolutely no downside. Ackbar and Sato have important caveats and trade-offs. Mon Mothma and Cracken offer a minor defensive buff globally. Dodanna has a cool effect, but it's unreliable. Garm only activates twice per game.

Rieekan has no negative. Lost a ship? Rieekan says don't worry about it. Squadrons are getting overrun? Throw Wedge in there and don't worry about it. Your strategy depends on ramming your own ships to death without any effort at preservation? Don't worry about it. Can't be bothered to try softening up a fleet ahead of your big assault? Don't worry about it.

Rieekan's got you covered, as long as you don't completely die until next turn.

The opportunity costs DO make up for it. You don't improve your ship's defenses or offensive ability, you just stay alive to get your turn, all for 30 points. You still die end of turn, but meanwhile precision strike and superior positions still hurt you. Mine those ships for points!

And you're still dead. You still get the points for the dead ship. Plus if the ship is dead, it can obstruct my own shots too, and clog up my own space lanes. Yes, things stay alive for longer, it just causes you to focus fire on ships to get them off the table.

I have not played a tournament and our local community is more casual even during tournaments than others here. I have not seen the issue with Armada that X-Wing has faced. Any tournament that you went to you would see 3-4 list by a large majority of the players, top tables would contain sometimes 100% of these list. It was not one ship with a title or a certain squadron ball, the same lists. With the tournament coverage I have seen there is not the same meta game with Armada, and even if there are things that are staples, it does not seem to be tilting the game the same as it was in X-Wing. The one thing I am not crazy about is how heavy squads are relied on in the game, but that is probably more personal as I want big ships fighting as a X-Wing player.

On 3/7/2017 at 2:22 AM, Blail Blerg said:

I have no idea how to make large ships have an easier time vs MSU lists of 6+ though.
And I still think 5 activations is pretty key in this meta.

Late to the topic, but I saw this post and wanted to respond. I actually had a thought the other day that would help balance high/low activation lists. Simply add the following rule:

"When it is your turn to activate a ship / pair of squadrons, if you have fewer unactivated ships / squadrons (respectively) than your opponent, you may pass."

I think it would really shake up the game, but in a good way. MSU lists would still have the advantage when deploying, but lists with just a couple large ships or a handful of elite fighters will be better able to coordinate and time their activations during he ship/squadron phases, as it should be.

@Snipafistwas telling me of the game last night he played where planetary ion cannon ate MSU for breakfast.

Combine that with Adv Gunnery and Superior Positions or Solar Corona and MSU is gonna have a bad time. I think it's largely a matter of objective choice there.

33 minutes ago, geek19 said:

The opportunity costs DO make up for it. You don't improve your ship's defenses or offensive ability, you just stay alive to get your turn, all for 30 points. You still die end of turn, but meanwhile precision strike and superior positions still hurt you. Mine those ships for points!

And you're still dead. You still get the points for the dead ship. Plus if the ship is dead, it can obstruct my own shots too, and clog up my own space lanes. Yes, things stay alive for longer, it just causes you to focus fire on ships to get them off the table.

This is why I migrated from Rieekan to Mothma for my MSU's. The only thing Rieekan actually does for your ships in absolute terms is keep them on the board a little longer. He doesn't directly increase offense, and he doesn't increase defense. You're paying 30 points to gain an extra round of activation for the affected ships--an effect that improved tactics will give you anyway, and that a defensive admiral will help you get while preserving the points. Rieekan -> Mothma is a trade up in terms of risk & reward.

This is a bit different for Rieekan's squadron game, so this is not a comment on squadrony Rieekan.

15 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

This is why I migrated from Rieekan to Mothma for my MSU's. The only thing Rieekan actually does for your ships in absolute terms is keep them on the board a little longer. He doesn't directly increase offense, and he doesn't increase defense. You're paying 30 points to gain an extra round of activation for the affected ships--an effect that improved tactics will give you anyway, and that a defensive admiral will help you get while preserving the points. Rieekan -> Mothma is a trade up in terms of risk & reward.

This is a bit different for Rieekan's squadron game, so this is not a comment on squadrony Rieekan.

Yup, completely agree with you. I'm still puzzling out my version of the Mothma swarm, but forcing rerolls on dice that don't want to be is MEAN. Wrecking hit plus crit black dice is the best Mothma ability.

Mon Mothma is the way to run rebel MSU imo. Her or Cracken. Rieekan is for squadrons. This is a guy who said "f*ck it, two xwings can totally protect an unarmed transport from a star destroyer"

2 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

Mon Mothma is the way to run rebel MSU imo. Her or Cracken. Rieekan is for squadrons. This is a guy who said "f*ck it, two xwings can totally protect an unarmed transport from a star destroyer"

Were they named squads? Because Rieekan would let them live until after the transports hyperspace retreat.

18 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

Mon Mothma is the way to run rebel MSU imo. Her or Cracken. Rieekan is for squadrons. This is a guy who said "f*ck it, two xwings can totally protect an unarmed transport from a star destroyer"

I don't dispute that Mon Mothma and Cracken can do fine with the archetype, but we have a local player who has done well at Regionals (he has literally never lost to the guy who won the Milwaukee Regional despite playing about a half dozen games against him) who runs a Rieekan MSU bum rush fleet with 6-7 activations (often 3+ CR90Bs with SW7s, 1-2 MC30s, 1-2 GR75s, sometimes additional Pelta and/or Salvation Neb-B and/or CR90A Jaina's Light, etc.) and it gives my preferred Ozzel MSU fleet trouble (I'd say I win more often than I lose against it, but it's two glass cannons just destroying one another) and tends to blow out most other players. Being able to pin enemy ships in place with a line of expendable CR90s while double-arcing and ramming like a madman causes levels of burst damage attrition that many fleets can't easily handle. It's not uncommon for turn 3 to end with 2/3 of the enemy fleet just wiped off the table and the others trying to limp away from the surviving Rieekan CR90 piranhas.

It also feels like Rieekan can run the Tycho+shara "bare minimum fighter coverage" group in addition to such a fleet pretty competently. It wont' stop a serious bomber fleet by any means, but it causes a fair amount of distraction for a low cost.

Again, I respect the @Ardaedhel-style no-squadrons MC30 nightmare Mothma fleet and the Cracken YT-2400 spam fleet as well. They're all pretty good archetypes. I just wouldn't discount the Rieekan MSU swarm when run well. That's not even getting to the ramstrosity version with Engine Tech CR90s everywhere...

29 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

I don't dispute that Mon Mothma and Cracken can do fine with the archetype, but we have a local player who has done well at Regionals (he has literally never lost to the guy who won the Milwaukee Regional despite playing about a half dozen games against him) who runs a Rieekan MSU bum rush fleet with 6-7 activations (often 3+ CR90Bs with SW7s, 1-2 MC30s, 1-2 GR75s, sometimes additional Pelta and/or Salvation Neb-B and/or CR90A Jaina's Light, etc.) and it gives my preferred Ozzel MSU fleet trouble (I'd say I win more often than I lose against it, but it's two glass cannons just destroying one another) and tends to blow out most other players. Being able to pin enemy ships in place with a line of expendable CR90s while double-arcing and ramming like a madman causes levels of burst damage attrition that many fleets can't easily handle. It's not uncommon for turn 3 to end with 2/3 of the enemy fleet just wiped off the table and the others trying to limp away from the surviving Rieekan CR90 piranhas.

It also feels like Rieekan can run the Tycho+shara "bare minimum fighter coverage" group in addition to such a fleet pretty competently. It wont' stop a serious bomber fleet by any means, but it causes a fair amount of distraction for a low cost.

Again, I respect the @Ardaedhel-style no-squadrons MC30 nightmare Mothma fleet and the Cracken YT-2400 spam fleet as well. They're all pretty good archetypes. I just wouldn't discount the Rieekan MSU swarm when run well. That's not even getting to the ramstrosity version with Engine Tech CR90s everywhere...

Your opinion is incorrect. Please re-evaluate and come back with a more correct opinion.

45 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

I don't dispute that Mon Mothma and Cracken can do fine with the archetype, but we have a local player who has done well at Regionals (he has literally never lost to the guy who won the Milwaukee Regional despite playing about a half dozen games against him) who runs a Rieekan MSU bum rush fleet with 6-7 activations (often 3+ CR90Bs with SW7s, 1-2 MC30s, 1-2 GR75s, sometimes additional Pelta and/or Salvation Neb-B and/or CR90A Jaina's Light, etc.) and it gives my preferred Ozzel MSU fleet trouble (I'd say I win more often than I lose against it, but it's two glass cannons just destroying one another) and tends to blow out most other players. Being able to pin enemy ships in place with a line of expendable CR90s while double-arcing and ramming like a madman causes levels of burst damage attrition that many fleets can't easily handle. It's not uncommon for turn 3 to end with 2/3 of the enemy fleet just wiped off the table and the others trying to limp away from the surviving Rieekan CR90 piranhas.

It also feels like Rieekan can run the Tycho+shara "bare minimum fighter coverage" group in addition to such a fleet pretty competently. It wont' stop a serious bomber fleet by any means, but it causes a fair amount of distraction for a low cost.

Again, I respect the @Ardaedhel-style no-squadrons MC30 nightmare Mothma fleet and the Cracken YT-2400 spam fleet as well. They're all pretty good archetypes. I just wouldn't discount the Rieekan MSU swarm when run well. That's not even getting to the ramstrosity version with Engine Tech CR90s everywhere...

Yeah, he does well with it. It helps that he's starting off even faster and crazier than the @Ardaedhel Mothma swarm. I've seen the CR90Bs rolling dice turn 2 in some cases. That's less than ideal for sure.

3 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

I'd like to see Rieekan's ability come with an opportunity cost of some sort. For example, only affecting ships and squadrons that have not activated yet. This prevents a pile of mobile corpses cluttering up the table and nullifying legitimate strategy, while still keeping true to his intended function. One example is that this would prevent complete lockdown of multiple squadrons by a single named Escort squadron for the duration of the round. If the player wants an effect to say on the board they'll have to delay activation as long as possible.

The inteded function of Rieekan is fine, but for too many ships and squadrons there is absolutely no downside. Ackbar and Sato have important caveats and trade-offs. Mon Mothma and Cracken offer a minor defensive buff globally. Dodanna has a cool effect, but it's unreliable. Garm only activates twice per game.

Rieekan has no negative. Lost a ship? Rieekan says don't worry about it. Squadrons are getting overrun? Throw Wedge in there and don't worry about it. Your strategy depends on ramming your own ships to death without any effort at preservation? Don't worry about it. Can't be bothered to try softening up a fleet ahead of your big assault? Don't worry about it.

Rieekan's got you covered, as long as you don't completely die until next turn.

Seriously? This is the same guy that was bemoaned as useless when he came out because you had to lose something for him to work. His opportunity cost is YOU HAVE TO DIE.

9 minutes ago, Truthiness said:

Seriously? This is the same guy that was bemoaned as useless when he came out because you had to lose something for him to work. His opportunity cost is YOU HAVE TO DIE.

Die Hard!

1 hour ago, Snipafist said:

I just wouldn't discount the Rieekan MSU swarm when run well.

Oh I agree, don't mean to say it's not good. There are things Rieekan can do that the others can't (parking a flotilla in an ISD front arc to enable the rest of the swarm flank shots, for example). I was just pointing out that there are drawbacks to using him--he's not just Jedi-mode.

3 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Rieekan --he's not just Jedi-mode.

Don't let Blail and Norse hear that

1 hour ago, Undeadguy said:

Don't let Blail and Norse hear that

He is Jedi mode. He's great. =) I use him all the time. I use the best admirals. Trust me.

--

Also, I'm getting tired hearing both of us be the butt of your condescension. Please stop that. Your jest here is not in good intentions.

5 hours ago, geek19 said:

The opportunity costs DO make up for it. You don't improve your ship's defenses or offensive ability, you just stay alive to get your turn, all for 30 points. You still die end of turn, but meanwhile precision strike and superior positions still hurt you. Mine those ships for points!

And you're still dead. You still get the points for the dead ship. Plus if the ship is dead, it can obstruct my own shots too, and clog up my own space lanes. Yes, things stay alive for longer, it just causes you to focus fire on ships to get them off the table.

Your logic has holes: Yes, Mothma and Garm do actively increase value on a ship, however, Rieekan does also. By zombifying, you can usually guarantee 2-4 extra WHOLE attacks you'd otherwise not get, this can be anywhere between 3-5 dice each) and is a significant objective/measured increase in jousting value.
With those objectives, they are also best exploited by squadrons (or APTS for MSU) and rarely are able to be used against the Rieekan player who tends to use those archetypes.

Therefore, you should reconsider your statement.

You also haven't talked about how it makes 2nd player much stronger, reduces the need to bid (measurable points saved), and allows you to construct a much harder to combat battle plan. These are the actual benefits of Rieekan. Not this: "You don't improve your ship's defenses or offensive ability, you just stay alive to get your turn"

That's not even getting to Rieekan's use with squadrons, allowing you to tie entire swaths down with one zombie. And they stay on the board clogging up the ability to engage other squadrons. This is used to great effect in the 5 ship bomber list and we have table time to attest to that. Table experience, as opposed to theoretical blabbing.

Now this has increased to include the "generic unique" squadrons, which are great for their extra 1 point of tax ANYWAY.

Second, being dead isn't really that much of a deterrent. Because you get the value from it. Also, most of the time, that dead ship is also clogging up your opponents movement, ESPECIALLY if played correctly. And can be used as a boxing tactic a la Wave 2.

Please consider these points.

2 hours ago, Madaghmire said:

Die Hard!

Prepare to open the energy shield. Yippy Kiyay mother ******.

4 hours ago, Herowannabe said:

Late to the topic, but I saw this post and wanted to respond. I actually had a thought the other day that would help balance high/low activation lists. Simply add the following rule:

"When it is your turn to activate a ship / pair of squadrons, if you have fewer unactivated ships / squadrons (respectively) than your opponent, you may pass."

I think it would really shake up the game, but in a good way. MSU lists would still have the advantage when deploying, but lists with just a couple large ships or a handful of elite fighters will be better able to coordinate and time their activations during he ship/squadron phases, as it should be.

Only once per turn please/

Have you tested this? How is it from both sides? How does MSU feel about this? I'd be kind of irritated to have to get 7 ships to get first and last vs 5 activations.

10 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Only once per turn please/

Have you tested this? How is it from both sides? How does MSU feel about this? I'd be kind of irritated to have to get 7 ships to get first and last vs 5 activations.

I have not tested it, but I'd like to try it sometime. And as long as you have more ships than your opponent (and you're first player) you'd still get first and last activations. You can only pass if you have FEWER unactivated ships than your opponent. If you have the same amount then you can't pass, regardless of whether it's limited to one pass per turn or not.

Limiting it to once per turn makes for some interesting possibilities. You could make it an upgrade card rather than an errata'd rule. Something like

•Chief Tactitian

You may exhaust this card instead of activating a ship or squadron.

Could breath some new life into the interdictor (with the title), too, giving you 2 passes per round instead of one.

41 minutes ago, Herowannabe said:

I have not tested it, but I'd like to try it sometime. And as long as you have more ships than your opponent (and you're first player) you'd still get first and last activations. You can only pass if you have FEWER unactivated ships than your opponent. If you have the same amount then you can't pass, regardless of whether it's limited to one pass per turn or not.

Limiting it to once per turn makes for some interesting possibilities. You could make it an upgrade card rather than an errata'd rule. Something like

•Chief Tactitian

You may exhaust this card instead of activating a ship or squadron.

Could breath some new life into the interdictor (with the title), too, giving you 2 passes per round instead of one.

I love this. Especially instead of making a new rule. 3 pts? =)

Large ship only.

Do we need a passing mechanic though? Jerry won Milwaukee with a large base and 5/6 activations and squadrons. Like, I acknowledge that having to go before 2-3 enemy ships get to go can be annoying, but through deployment and moving well you can start shooting them and killing them.

Isn't the natural balance of MSU their low health? If you can fly well and put damage into them, their ships explode. Intel officer and Xi7s didn't stop being good, especially against flotillas and mc30s/cr90s/gladiators. A decently kitted out Liberty can crack 2 ships a turn...

6 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Do we need a passing mechanic though? Jerry won Milwaukee with a large base and 5/6 activations and squadrons. Like, I acknowledge that having to go before 2-3 enemy ships get to go can be annoying, but through deployment and moving well you can start shooting them and killing them.

Isn't the natural balance of MSU their low health? If you can fly well and put damage into them, their ships explode. Intel officer and Xi7s didn't stop being good, especially against flotillas and mc30s/cr90s/gladiators. A decently kitted out Liberty can crack 2 ships a turn...

I rarely see MSU make a mistake of activation order anymore. And he had 5 activations?? That means almost no fighter cover. You simply can't fit everything. Try it In the builder. You'd lose hard to mass squadrons. STILL have a hard time vs MSU.

Yes. a 3pt unique crew for large ships only would be great.

It competes heavily against SFO and Intel Officer.

Tycho, 2 a wings, 3 z95s iirc, and a 14/15 point bid. And it's not about activation order when that Liberty is right in your face turn 2/3. Considering he won the Regional with it....

And you already have DCO to fight MSU. Most MSU have crit effects, that cancels them. You're not really answering my posed question, though, about their lower health. Put some decent tech on a Liberty, like Intel officer and xi7s, and you're able to hit flotillas and other small ships that depend on their redirects to live. Even without a bid, park your liberty where you're threatening several ships. One can move and get away, but the others are taking a solid blast to the face. Same applies with an ISD-I with high capacity ion turbines and h9s. Threaten several ships, don't just try to take away the advantage of playing MSU because it's harder to fight.

Just now, Blail Blerg said:

I rarely see MSU make a mistake of activation order anymore. And he had 5 activations?? That means almost no fighter cover. You simply can't fit everything. Try it In the builder. You'd lose hard to mass squadrons. STILL have a hard time vs MSU.

Yes. a 3pt unique crew for large ships only would be great.

I don't know man, I wouldn't hold my breath... I really still think this is the intended function of flotillas, and they already do it admirably; why do we need another mechanic to do the same thing?

And a whole extra activation for 3 points + officer slot is a pretty big deal. Kind of a no-brainer in some cases. Keep in mind that this would trivialize certain aspects of list building, because it's not the same thing as just adding activations. It's adding non-mandatory activations. One of the big drawbacks of high-activation fleets is their vulnerability to losing activation advantage to forking: if I have six actual activations in my fleet and four are under immediate existential threat, I can't save at least two of them. This obviates that weakness of actual high ship-count fleets.

I think people just need to get over the distaste for "wasted" points spent on flotillas. If you need activations in your fleet, you're going to have to accept the need to down-convert some ships to smaller ones, whether that's ISD -> VSD + Raider, or CR90A -> 2*GR-75. Otherwise, just figure out how to tactically mitigate activation disadvantage. It's not easy, but at that point you're consciously accepting a weakness in one dimension of your build (activation count) in exchange for a strength in another (ship survivability, coolness, whatever), and it's on you to figure out how to leverage your fleet's strengths while mitigating its weaknesses.