I dont think Rebels need a nerf as much as Imperials need better or on par AA. Right now, without a heavy investment in a fighter screen. While I can see this true to form, I would still think a couple of squads going up against an ISD would be more fearful of the AA then what they currently are

4 minutes ago, Nostromoid said:

We're still talking about nerfs to key Imperial staples, yet Rebels appear to be pretty dominant at Regionals this year. I shudder to think what would happen if Imperials got nerfs to some of their OP units with nothing in return.

Honestly, I know that regionals are important to a lot of people. Yet a lot of people really don't care about the tournament scene.

For me, nerfs are important also to get things away from being no brainers and buffs are to be used to get people to use them. Like someone else said in this thread, how often do you see a gladiator that isn't the demolisher? How often do you see any imperial bomber build that doesn't revolve around some big Rhymer ball? Both of those are heads and shoulders above the generic versions. I happen to think that the gladiator isn't really that bad. It's a different version of the shrimp, and I love the shrimp. However, many imperial players don't seem to know how to use the gladiator or think it's trash when it isn't the demolisher. For me that's a problem and indicative that the title is too good (it also doesn't help that engine techs, ordinance experts and APTs go even further to get that thing to be an alpha striker).

Now, we can say that the imperials are already having problems or need those things to be competitive. If that's true, I think it's more that other imperial things need to be buffed while those two get nerfed rather than just keep the status quo.

While I agree with the fact that you see a lot of Glads that are Demo (I run non Demo all the time) I would contend that goes with many ships.

Bright Hope on a GR-75

Admo on a Satan Spawn I mean MC-30

Demo on a Glad

Yavaris on a Neb

Jaina's on a CR90

I don't think it is too bad.

7 minutes ago, Lukiki said:

Honestly, I know that regionals are important to a lot of people. Yet a lot of people really don't care about the tournament scene.

For me, nerfs are important also to get things away from being no brainers and buffs are to be used to get people to use them. Like someone else said in this thread, how often do you see a gladiator that isn't the demolisher? How often do you see any imperial bomber build that doesn't revolve around some big Rhymer ball? Both of those are heads and shoulders above the generic versions. I happen to think that the gladiator isn't really that bad. It's a different version of the shrimp, and I love the shrimp. However, many imperial players don't seem to know how to use the gladiator or think it's trash when it isn't the demolisher. For me that's a problem and indicative that the title is too good (it also doesn't help that engine techs, ordinance experts and APTs go even further to get that thing to be an alpha striker).

Now, we can say that the imperials are already having problems or need those things to be competitive. If that's true, I think it's more that other imperial things need to be buffed while those two get nerfed rather than just keep the status quo.

shrimp has acces to h9, gladiator doesnt. This makes mc30 very potent, and cracken gives it a really Good tank, what the ship lacks (Talking without titles) gladiator: For the granted acc you need jonus. It has an extra hull, but weaker shields. Many admirals can improve it, but It doesnt get as much benefit as the shrimp. Obviously this is Just my opinion.

11 minutes ago, Kikaze said:

"why the demolisher hate": because the demolisher title grants increased threat range to black dice, often bigger than red dice threat range, and black dice are not designed to have huge threat range. Rhymer, for example, gives LESS threat range to squadrons, and squadrons are designed to have huge threat range(move-shoot), yet he is good. but he adds something to an already good stat.

demolisher turns "black dice are lethal, but shorter range than blue dice" to "black dice are lethal and longer range than red dice". its not OP, but 10 points is way too low.

the fact that it covers for the gladiators' weaknesses doesnt excuse it.

I do agree, however, that buffs to weak cards are more important than nerfs to strong cards at this point.

Yea but how well has Demo done this season? And I'm asking a serious question. How many times has a Demo placed in top 4 compared to other big name upgrades like Yavaris and Defiance?

Nerfing Demo would basically neuter Imps black dice ship. Where as Admo is a staple for Rebel fleets and can go with literally any fleet composition. Get a large ship/bomber fun and toss in Admo for 90 points because you have the extra room. Rieekan? Great, it's an MC30. Dodonna? It's got APT. Ackbar? Cool, tossing 7 dice out the side arcs now. Mothma? Good luck killing Admo with bombers. Madine? Extra yaw at speed 4. Cracken?Obstruction AND cancelling a die AND Evades. Garm? Kind of meh, but banking a Nav and CF token is good. Sato? Long range APT that rivals Demo.

I just don't see Demo as a problem. I think the Rebels have a better selection of commanders so people tend to run Screed, JJ, Vader or Ozzel, all of which pair well with Demo.

Rhymer is not nearly as terrifying as before. I consider Norra more of a pain in the ass than Rhymer ever was, simply because Norra can get a speed boost via AFFM and FCT, and Yavaris double taps with a another crit option is hard to deal with.

Maybe I live in the clouds but I don't really see a need to hit anything in Armada at this time as let's be honest there is not a single list that wins hands down and intruth how often do you ever play a mirror list. Armada is super healthy right now we're as sadly xwing became dull to the point that unless you played one or two list it was a bit of a up hill struggle. There is nothing stopping people using any of the units we have in the game currently, yes there are more popular choices but they are not broken in anyway.

i agree that the game is more balanced than x-wing. i just think that demolisher is bad for the game-it is only balanced (and it is balanced) because black dice ship strategies, and glads especialy, are "meh". once demolisher is toned down(more like, get its cost fixed) then gladiators can be buffed (thats how i see it) so they can play without titles. i am open even to giving them +1-2 hull or whatever, something crazy.

i just dont think "super threat range" is the design intent for black dice ships, no matter how balanced it is in the current meta. the thing is, design intent -> all imho.

23 minutes ago, Coldhands said:

shrimp has acces to h9, gladiator doesnt. This makes mc30 very potent, and cracken gives it a really Good tank, what the ship lacks (Talking without titles) gladiator: For the granted acc you need jonus. It has an extra hull, but weaker shields. Many admirals can improve it, but It doesnt get as much benefit as the shrimp. Obviously this is Just my opinion.

Which is why the glad is cheaper. Note that the points cost opens up different options to customize your glad(s) and/or the rest of your fleet. For the price of 2 mc30s with their titles you can get two glads and demo title with 20 points to spare.

25 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

While I agree with the fact that you see a lot of Glads that are Demo (I run non Demo all the time) I would contend that goes with many ships.

Bright Hope on a GR-75

Admo on a Satan Spawn I mean MC-30

Demo on a Glad

Yavaris on a Neb

Jaina's on a CR90

I don't think it is too bad.

I'm not arguing how usable it is. My issue is more that there is a strong perception that if you want to use a gladiator you have to use the demolisher title, otherwise the ship is trash. I'm not saying everyone thinks that way, but from what I've seen that thought process much more for the demolisher then probably for every other ship title combined. I think that's a testament to how fundamentally it changes the ship for the better.

this is not the "what is more OP" thread imho, because nothing is OP at the moment.

though admonition is clearly superior to demolisher in this meta.

in my point of view, if an errata happens, it is to develop "design space". admonition is powerful, but doesnt alter mechanics as much as demolisher, so even though demolisher is weaker in this meta, it is a big threat for the future of armada .

I hear you, and I think FFG has introduced SO many things that make nerf Demo without nerfing Demo. It is kind of funny to hear any kind of Demo is OP talk right now.

No nerfing.

Only buffing.

And a Gladiator, is NOT trash. We've been seeing a lot more plain Glad2s around here...

1 hour ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

I hear you, and I think FFG has introduced SO many things that make nerf Demo without nerfing Demo. It is kind of funny to hear any kind of Demo is OP talk right now.

No nerfing.

Only buffing.

Yea I'm surprised by the calls to nerf Demo. I'd rather nerf Rebels or buff Imps so they are on the same playing field.

but how can you buff imperials(the black dice variety i mean) when you are TERRIFIED of giving any buff to demolisher? from a designer perspective, the title must be infamous. "**** we had designed this upgrade or that upgrade to help VSD Is or Raiders etc, but it is just too dangerous to buff demolisher by adding it to the game".

see? the concept of "design space" that i talked about.

15 minutes ago, Kikaze said:

i agree that the game is more balanced than x-wing. i just think that demolisher is bad for the game-it is only balanced (and it is balanced) because black dice ship strategies, and glads especialy, are "meh". once demolisher is toned down(more like, get its cost fixed) then gladiators can be buffed (thats how i see it) so they can play without titles. i am open even to giving them +1-2 hull or whatever, something crazy.

i just dont think "super threat range" is the design intent for black dice ships, no matter how balanced it is in the current meta. the thing is, design intent -> all imho.

In truth demo got a lot of its teeth knocked out the second DCO was released as losing the crit effect lost the ability to take down those capital ships and let's be honest demo is so point heavy that's it's main strength was killing a ISD or MC80 which has now become a lot harder as you can't afford to sacrifice it for anything else

All I'm hearing is a lot of people wanting cards that they lose to all the time nerfed (I say as nicely as possible, without trying to start a flame war). There's no problems with TRCs, Nora, Yavaris, Rhymer, or BCC stacking.

Yes, there's strong archetypes, but each one of those things has its own counter. Yavaris has weak side arcs, rhymer/Nora need escorts to keep them alive (and snipe exists now too), and bomber command center stacking is fine as that's 52 points minimum to get the chance to reroll a bomber dice potentially twice. TRCs don't need to be a modification, you're already giving up a defense token to use them.

I have my own opinion on nerfing and buffing Demolisher, but as a Rebel only player I will fully admit that opinion is based around wanting to win more games. I'll let others comment for me on that. I will say that for all the "can't take h9s argument" I always hear, I just wish that FFG had released a bomber squadron who provided a free accuracy to other ships in range.

As for fighting it because it's "too good," Rieekan, Mon Mothma, the assault MC80 loaded with everything including RBD, etc. Demo can die, you just need to fight smartly.

As a matter of fact, in my experience it is A LOT more rare to see a Neb without a title. Salvation and Yavaris all over the place but few non title nebs.

I will say that Armada is in an incredible place right now. For every option there is something you fear or want to add.

Want H-9s on a Glad2? Capitan Jonas has something for you...

Bringing Cap J and Demo? Oh snap they have Rieekan and Defiance with blast doors...

On the plus side I think the fact that we are all saying positive and negative things about the same cards shows how healthy this game is as if it really did need a errata we would all be for the part on the same page...

4 minutes ago, Lukiki said:

I'm not arguing how usable it is. My issue is more that there is a strong perception that if you want to use a gladiator you have to use the demolisher title, otherwise the ship is trash. I'm not saying everyone thinks that way, but from what I've seen that thought process much more for the demolisher then probably for every other ship title combined. I think that's a testament to how fundamentally it changes the ship for the better.

So... the Glad is trash without Demo, so we should ban Demo... and use get to play with a trash ship...

The problem with Demo is the current perception of it. We are all exposed to how great it is to move n shoot, instead of shoot n move. The perception is if you can't move n shoot with a Glad, it's no longer a good ship which is not true. I have a dual Glad fleet with both titles and it works amazing. Not because of Demo, but because if you focus on Demo, Insidious WILL get behind you and toss black dice at medium.

Ironically, people think black dice with a greater threat range is scary and both Glad titles do that hahaha.

3 minutes ago, Kikaze said:

but how can you buff imperials(the black dice variety i mean) when you are TERRIFIED of giving any buff to demolisher?

see? the concept of "design space" that i talked about.

See, you are talking about buffing black dice. I am talking about Imps as a whole. Imp commanders suck compared to the Rebels.

Tarkin is over priced and benefits only if you can spend the tokens every turn or have high command ships, which eats a lot of points.
Tagge signals you will attack round 3 n 5.
Konstatine needs medium and large ships, of which there are 3. Vics want JJ, ISDs want Vader or Motti, and Interdictors don't have the bunching power of the previous 2. And all 3 are quite expensive.

Ozzel is meh IMO. 20 points is fine for a double speed change.

Vader is quite expensive and is utilized best on large battery ships.
JJ is pretty good. He is my favorite Imp commander because of the utility he offers and cheap price.
Motti is solid too, but doesn't give much to small ships.
Screed is great with Demo.

You have to remember that any change to black dice ships will also change MC30s and Raiders. I'd say Admo terrifies me more than Demo. I don't even both attacking Admo anymore because it's a waste of time. So yes, buff Demo so I can kill Admo.

Targeting Beacons: 2nd player places all four tokens. Muahaha!

Demo needs a points adjustment or some text change. It stifles design space and is an Imperial crutch (in my limited experience).

In 9 regionals matches I faced 4 Imperials and 3 ran Demolishers. Of those 3 only one guy actually did meaningful damage with the rest of his fleet. The other two matches amounted to a nearly unstoppable suicide run with Demo that always traded up. Then the rest of their fleets did absolute jack. I still won, but Demo's ability to roll up, one shot a small ship, then activate first and move over to one-shot another small ship, was all the players could do. No Admonition can do that.

Besides Demo, I would like to see a rewording or recosting of older titles.

I say we get to Wave 10 first... Then look back at Cards.

1 hour ago, Undeadguy said:

Why so much Demo hate? I can't pull up the huge spreadsheet, but I didn't think it was winning anymore than MC80s or Yavaris

My Demo suggestion was borne out of my feeling that its mere existance is preventing fun upgrades from existing, more than it being unbeatable.

There are two or three ship types on either side that are losing out because one card plays so differently.

8 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

I say we get to Wave 10 first... Then look back at Cards.

Certainly a valid point, that cards that people don't use now may have a ship in the future, or cards that are too good now may get a counter.

38 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

So... the Glad is trash without Demo, so we should ban Demo... and use get to play with a trash ship...

The problem with Demo is the current perception of it. We are all exposed to how great it is to move n shoot, instead of shoot n move. The perception is if you can't move n shoot with a Glad, it's no longer a good ship which is not true. I have a dual Glad fleet with both titles and it works amazing. Not because of Demo, but because if you focus on Demo, Insidious WILL get behind you and toss black dice at medium.

Ironically, people think black dice with a greater threat range is scary and both Glad titles do that hahaha.

See, you are talking about buffing black dice. I am talking about Imps as a whole. Imp commanders suck compared to the Rebels.

Completely not what I said. I don't want to ban it, I just think it needs to be brought back down. I also personally think the gladiator is fine. Hell, I run 2 shrimp all the time without the titles and usually run Madine, so don't use Rieekan. What I do know is that I've seen the line "the gladiator is trash without the demolisher title" so many times as to think something is up. Actually, I think that other thread where that guy shows which titles are used most and the only title used nearly as much as the demolisher was the bright hope. I think this is significant considering how much the demolisher title costs. We can also talk about the Bright Hope and Yavaris titles if you want (I think BH is fine while Yavaris could use a slight nerf as well with relay being out). That doesn't change what I think about the demolisher.

However, I strongly feel that Rhymer and Norra need to be limited to a set number of squadrons every turn. It really shouldn't be affecting everything within range 1. At least Norra only affects bombers and you need that crit to get it off (she's still good, don't get me wrong). Rhymer just affects all squadrons and it's always in effect. I think Rhymer was fine before intel, just as I think Yavaris was fine before relay. I think Rhymer and Norra are a bigger issue then the demolisher right now given the current meta and squadron game.