TLT is the only turret thats worth it. If you nerf it you just stop seeing secondary turrets other than autoblaster on ghost.

Yes, which is why the scumlife lists used TLT and not the shadowcaster because ...... errr, nope. And those lists can even generate the focuses needed to fuel the TLTs and a few list do take advantage. Yes, the math on the unmodified dice rolls would favor TLTs on a population of games, but those rolls aren't always unmodified nor does it tell anything about an individual game. Most people would rather have 4 dice at range one with crits than a dead ship at range one. A calculator doesn't give you any insight into a game with far too many variables to track. The situation dictates if the TLT is good or trash. Criticals are also very important in this game. I am very happy to get hit by a TLT in a low agility ship. When you are staring at a hit and two crits on an attack roll when you rolled a blank on your one green, taking the one face down damage card almost feels like cheating on your part, doesn't it?

I understand the math but you also need to account for the chaos of the game. The TLT gimmick is great, in certain situations. Yes the math works in its favor under those situations, otherwise, not so much. If only those 3 agility ships would stay at range 3 and not have autothrusters.

So what imperial builds beat triple K?

6 minutes ago, Lobokai said:

So what imperial builds beat triple K?

Maybe a Fat Kirk? He is the only thing the Imps have that can trade dice somewhat well with them at range 3 without the need to ever get in close to those bombs. By Fat Kirk I mean Lone Wolf, Ysanne and maybe Palp if you still like him. Otherwise Kylo and another random crew might be nice since you can blind 1 k and then hopefully just tank another ks shot with your evade token and 1 AGI. Id probably suggest an SF as the wingman, since they can also fly away from the ks and just shoot at them out the back.

44 minutes ago, Mep said:

Yes, which is why the scumlife lists used TLT and not the shadowcaster because ...... errr, nope. And those lists can even generate the focuses needed to fuel the TLTs and a few list do take advantage. Yes, the math on the unmodified dice rolls would favor TLTs on a population of games, but those rolls aren't always unmodified nor does it tell anything about an individual game. Most people would rather have 4 dice at range one with crits than a dead ship at range one. A calculator doesn't give you any insight into a game with far too many variables to track. The situation dictates if the TLT is good or trash. Criticals are also very important in this game. I am very happy to get hit by a TLT in a low agility ship. When you are staring at a hit and two crits on an attack roll when you rolled a blank on your one green, taking the one face down damage card almost feels like cheating on your part, doesn't it?

I understand the math but you also need to account for the chaos of the game. The TLT gimmick is great, in certain situations. Yes the math works in its favor under those situations, otherwise, not so much. If only those 3 agility ships would stay at range 3 and not have autothrusters.

You've lost me. I have no idea what taking a Shadowcaster instead of TLTs has to do with TLTs being better than other turrets for more than just the ability to attack at range three.

If there were a 6 point turret upgrade that made a regular three dice attack at range 2-3, no one would take it over a TLT unless they had some pilot or upgrade effect that needed crits or multiple points of damage being pushed through during a single attack.

Aren't the original designers on record as saying that they wish they had priced the TLT at 7 points? If I am remembering correctly, I would think that should squash any arguments that claim that the TLT is perfectly balanced.

I'd personally like too see them remove the spend-focus restriction from Blaster Turret. Then keep TLT at 6 points but require you to spend a Target Lock to perform the double-attack with it.

I think we got quite enough changes for right now. Sabine, Biggs and TLT may need looked at in the future but I think TLT is the least of the problem in that group. If they do feel like they need to change TLT it should be that you cannot modify your attack dice. That would make it still decent but not nearly as reliable.

1 hour ago, WWHSD said:

You've lost me. I have no idea what taking a Shadowcaster instead of TLTs has to do with TLTs being better than other turrets for more than just the ability to attack at range three.

If there were a 6 point turret upgrade that made a regular three dice attack at range 2-3, no one would take it over a TLT unless they had some pilot or upgrade effect that needed crits or multiple points of damage being pushed through during a single attack.

Of course not. That 6pt turret would have some other gimmick and probably be range 1-3. That is my point, we don't have that turret to compare TLT too, so in a vacuum, TLT appears to be good. Compared to ships with built in 1-3 range turrets, well those see more play than TLTs. Apples to oranges or not, it is still the only comparison to be made and I would rather have an apple or an orange than a piece of crap which is what the other turrets are. What is the one fault those other turrets share? No range 3. If TLTs are such wonderful turrets, Kavil would be the auto include in the scumlife lists and not the shadowcaster. If Dorsal turret was range 1-3, how much more interesting would Kavil be? If Autobaster turret was range 1-3, we aren't even having this conversation. It's that range 3 that makes the TLT the only viable turret to equip.

There is this other math problem you can solve. How much area can be attacked at range 2-3 compared to range 1-2? Doubling the area one can make an attack against is huge, more so than plinking away for 1 or 2 points of damage a turn.

9 hours ago, Lobokai said:

So what imperial builds beat triple K?

Double Decimator has lots of hull for that task, swarms offer too many targets and can remove K-Wings quickly. And they can block any possible bombing vectors. I don't know wether x7 will continue to dominate the 7 TIEs with 4 Cracks swarm, but it might return because of a good matchup to K-Wings and PS-killing rebel swarms.

Swarms vs K-Wings also have the advantage that blocking prevents the K-wings from dropping Action bombs.