Tweaks I'd still like to see:

1. TLTs 7 points.

2. Secondary weapon ignoring range bonus/penalty only applies to ordnance, not cannons or turrets (rationale: most ordnance is guided and is equally effective at all ranges while aiming affects cannons and turrets like primary weapons at short/long range).

3. Miranda's ability only works on primary weapons.

4. Sabine must be in range 1-3 of a bomb to affect it (or it should only work on bombs she drops).

4 hours ago, Hrathen said:

If we see a lot of mind link we are going to see a lot of stress mechanics. I can't wait to shoot my stress hog twice at something and give two stress to my opponents entire force.

Mindlink only stress the other ships with mindlink if they are unstressed, so only one stress can be distributed.

3 hours ago, ABXY said:

"Perform this attack twice" weapons cannot split fire - 2nd attack must be against original target.

He means the BTL, double tapping stresshogs, which can attack one target with their primary, and a different target with the TLT.

5 hours ago, Punning Pundit said:

I've been playing this list a fair bit recently:

Tansarii Point Veteran (17)
Attanni Mindlink (1)
"Mangler" Cannon (4)
"Heavy Scyk" Interceptor (Cannon) (2)

Tansarii Point Veteran (17)
Attanni Mindlink (1)
"Mangler" Cannon (4)
"Heavy Scyk" Interceptor (Cannon) (2)

Tansarii Point Veteran (17)
Attanni Mindlink (1)
"Mangler" Cannon (4)
"Heavy Scyk" Interceptor (Cannon) (2)

Serissu (20)
Attanni Mindlink (1)
"Mangler" Cannon (4)
"Heavy Scyk" Interceptor (Cannon) (2)

Total: 99

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

It's fun, effective, and can do a whole lot of work. And _just yesterday_, a friend suggested I swap Serissu for Manaroo. Because yesterday, Manaroo actually was a better choice than Serissu.

I don't think Mindlink is a problem in a 100 point game. It's an interesting card, that opens up some interesting interactions. Those interactions can combine to be very powerful. But it has a lot of built in limiters. I think those limiters are good enough for a 100 point match.

(I also think 8 mindlink Scyks would be terrifying in an Epic match.)

I keep meaning to try that squad except with Sarco Plank instead of the third TPV.

But...TLT was already nerfed enough! Why no one remember the attack-timing chart?

The only thing making TLTs better than all other turrets is that range 3. Once another range 3 turret is available and viable, you'll see fewer TLTs.

10 minutes ago, Mep said:

The only thing making TLTs better than all other turrets is that range 3. Once another range 3 turret is available and viable, you'll see fewer TLTs.

There's also the bit about a TLT attack having higher expected damage output than a 3 die primary attack (even at range 2). I'd be willing to bet that has something to do with how popular they are.

3 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

There's also the bit about a TLT attack having higher expected damage output than a 3 die primary attack (even at range 2). I'd be willing to bet that has something to do with how popular they are.

truth bombs. get em cheep.

6 hours ago, Hrathen said:

If we see a lot of mind link we are going to see a lot of stress mechanics. I can't wait to shoot my stress hog twice at something and give two stress to my opponents entire force.

Mindlink only passes a focus or stress if others with it don't already have a stress or focus. So you'll stress all of them but only once. That said, stressing an ML list is a very undesireable option for the list as at least one of them now has to clear stress to be passing focus tokens. So it does influence how they fly, what most people seem to do is fly one ship in the back to pass out focus (and also clear stress) which means they aren't usually using the full combat potential of the list every round. IMO mindlink is balanced around it's cost and the fact it replaces the EPT in the entire list (or at least those ships running the link). Paratanni's extra trick is Manaroo passing all her tokens PLUS the ML focus token to Asage. Still workable with the nerf to Manaroo (which I think was a little harsh myself) but would require flying big ships in formation.....

24 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

There's also the bit about a TLT attack having higher expected damage output than a 3 die primary attack (even at range 2). I'd be willing to bet that has something to do with how popular they are.

Is 3 die primary still a thing? The real power is the second attack and stripping of tokens. The best you can do with a TLT is 2 face down damage. I one shotted a Whisper once with Fen Rau. Add in the doughnut hole and the two potential damage isn't nearly as powerful as a 3 range turret, especially against high agility ships. Sure on a good attack roll and bad defense roll you'll get a damage in on Whisper, but just the one.

22 minutes ago, Mep said:

Is 3 die primary still a thing? The real power is the second attack and stripping of tokens. The best you can do with a TLT is 2 face down damage. I one shotted a Whisper once with Fen Rau. Add in the doughnut hole and the two potential damage isn't nearly as powerful as a 3 range turret, especially against high agility ships. Sure on a good attack roll and bad defense roll you'll get a damage in on Whisper, but just the one.

A 3 die primary attack has a higher damage ceiling but it applies damage less consistently. Against targets with 2 and 3 agility, TLT attacks have an expected damage output closer to that that of a 4 die attack than they do a 3 die attack. TLTs will never put out 3 points of damage a round but they are also much less likely to put out 0 points of damage in a round.

Even if the defender has a focus a pair of focus tokens (so token stripping isn't a factor) the TLT has a higher expected damage output.

It's memorable when you throw hit,hit,crit and pull a Direct Hit when Whisper's dice crapped out and didn't cancel anything but it's not something that you can count on happening.

At a cost though. There is the range 1 doughnut hole. No burst damage so burning a focus or target lock at best gets you 1 damage. No criticals. So no, not a higher expected damage output. It does have a more consistent damage out put and a higher unmodified attack average damage output. 4 dice, a focus, a target lock and a direct hit crit can beat two TLTs. Burst damage is very important on high agility ships. This as all things in this game, is situational. The nice thing about TLT is they are easy mode. You don't have to line up the perfect shot. The down side is those flying them in easy mode can be beaten down due to the range 1 hole.

I'm not saying TLTs are bad but the only thing we can compare it to is primary turreted weapons when it comes to a range 3 turret. Sure the TLT has some advantages but it also has it draw backs. It's balanced. If there was some other range 3 turret available, then it could be better compared and ranked.

Wouldn't worry about TLT too much, Sabine will be more of a problem. K-Wings will be a cornerstone of the new meta for sure.

1 minute ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Wouldn't worry about TLT too much, Sabine will be more of a problem. K-Wings will be a cornerstone of the new meta for sure.

Can you post this 3K list?

1 minute ago, Blail Blerg said:

Can you post this 3K list?

Warden Squadron Pilot (23)
Extra Munitions (2)
Sabine Wren (2)
Cluster Mines (4)
Advanced SLAM (2)

Warden Squadron Pilot (23)
Extra Munitions (2)
Intelligence Agent (1)
Seismic Charges (2)
Cluster Mines (4)
Advanced SLAM (2)

Warden Squadron Pilot (23)
Extra Munitions (2)
"Chopper" (0)
Seismic Charges (2)
Cluster Mines (4)
Advanced SLAM (2)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

This is the extreme version that aims to wreck Defenders, but still also shuts down pretty much all two ship and most other 3 ship (Parattanni having been one of the few exceptions) lists. There are many variations, though, all of which have merit. Sabines K-Wing can be equiped with Proximity Mines to upgrade the IA to Cassian, for example. other lists drop one K-Wing down to a Y-Wing with a turret in order to equip turrets on all ships. And to combat single aces, a single K-Wing with Sabine and a Conner Net is very dangerous. This can be a Warden or Miranda.

Sabine is a very versatile and powerful card. I stopped taking her to game nights because she was too frustrating for my opponents once I started having the manouvers down. Counterplay has to happen 3 rounds in advance and might still not be successful, most players aren't used to that. It makes the game entirely about manouvers. It is great fun and learning the list is hard as you need to know exactly where your mines will end up, but once you get that down most difficulty is loaded on your opponent.

3 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Warden Squadron Pilot (23)
Extra Munitions (2)
Sabine Wren (2)
Cluster Mines (4)
Advanced SLAM (2)

Warden Squadron Pilot (23)
Extra Munitions (2)
Intelligence Agent (1)
Seismic Charges (2)
Cluster Mines (4)
Advanced SLAM (2)

Warden Squadron Pilot (23)
Extra Munitions (2)
"Chopper" (0)
Seismic Charges (2)
Cluster Mines (4)
Advanced SLAM (2)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

This is the extreme version that aims to wreck Defenders, but still also shuts down pretty much all two ship and most other 3 ship (Parattanni having been one of the few exceptions) lists. There are many variations, though, all of which have merit. Sabines K-Wing can be equiped with Proximity Mines to upgrade the IA to Cassian, for example. other lists drop one K-Wing down to a Y-Wing with a turret in order to equip turrets on all ships. And to combat single aces, a single K-Wing with Sabine and a Conner Net is very dangerous. This can be a Warden or Miranda.

Sabine is a very versatile and powerful card. I stopped taking her to game nights because she was too frustrating for my opponents once I started having the manouvers down. Counterplay has to happen 3 rounds in advance and might still not be successful, most players aren't used to that. It makes the game entirely about manouvers. It is great fun and learning the list is hard as you need to know exactly where your mines will end up, but once you get that down most difficulty is loaded on your opponent.

I find it ironic that TLT actually seems to be a decent counter to 3 bomber ks, as they can just snipe you at range 3 for most of the fight.

3 minutes ago, TitaniumChopstick said:

I find it ironic that TLT actually seems to be a decent counter to 3 bomber ks, as they can just snipe you at range 3 for most of the fight.

Its a relatively balanced matchup slightly in favour of the TLTs. K-Wings can easily close the gap - when you are at range 3, unless you are perfectly straight ahead (they need at least one 3 bank), they will bomb you. It isn't a hard counter for sure. If the K-Wing player manages to engage from just beyond range 3, he wins no questions asked. If he doesn't, he still has a chance, but is at a disadvantage. He also must not try and force engagements, that is something he has to leave to the TLT player.

3 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Its a relatively balanced matchup slightly in favour of the TLTs. K-Wings can easily close the gap - when you are at range 3, unless you are perfectly straight ahead (they need at least one 3 bank), they will bomb you. It isn't a hard counter for sure. If the K-Wing player manages to engage from just beyond range 3, he wins no questions asked. If he doesn't, he still has a chance, but is at a disadvantage. He also must not try and force engagements, that is something he has to leave to the TLT player.

I wish I could watch this. No one around here really plays with Kwings or bombs in mass.

Just now, Blail Blerg said:

I wish I could watch this. No one around here really plays with Kwings or bombs in mass.

It is a rare list for sure because of the purchases required. 3 K-Wings isn't too unreasonable as that was a meta list wave 7, but gathering the Cluster Mines is a pain. You need a total of 6. One you get from the Ghost where you also need Sabine from. 1-2 you can get from Imperial Veterans, but for the rest you need Punishers. I have 4 and that is ridiculous. Most people will want to own one at max, and only for the upgrades.

9 hours ago, PremiumGoldLeaderDeluxe said:

Any good Rebel counters to TLT? I hate playing against it but don't play Imps or Scum.

Yup, anything with Autothrusters is a good start so A-Wings and T70s are in a good place. Anything else that provides a bonus to every defense roll is also good so Poe and Luke do well here. TLTs generally rely on plinking opponents to death so Regen works quite well as long as you avoid getting shot by multiple TLTs in one turn. Lastly, most TLT carriers are fairly lumbering so torpedoes to chew through them are not a bad bet.

Poe (potentially) matches 3 of the above criteria so with a Regen droid and Autothrusters, he will not have much to fear from TLTs. Assuming he has a Focus token, against 1 hit, he is safe. Against 2 hits, he would need to roll a double-blank to take damage and against 3 hits, he will still come out level provided he can regen. Your opponent would need consistently hot dice to threaten Poe with TLTs.

Haha unbelievable. Another nerf thread.

6 hours ago, Mep said:

At a cost though. There is the range 1 doughnut hole. No burst damage so burning a focus or target lock at best gets you 1 damage. No criticals. So no, not a higher expected damage output. It does have a more consistent damage out put and a higher unmodified attack average damage output. 4 dice, a focus, a target lock and a direct hit crit can beat two TLTs. Burst damage is very important on high agility ships. This as all things in this game, is situational. The nice thing about TLT is they are easy mode. You don't have to line up the perfect shot. The down side is those flying them in easy mode can be beaten down due to the range 1 hole.

I'm not saying TLTs are bad but the only thing we can compare it to is primary turreted weapons when it comes to a range 3 turret. Sure the TLT has some advantages but it also has it draw backs. It's balanced. If there was some other range 3 turret available, then it could be better compared and ranked.

I'm not saying that TLT is unbalanced, I'm saying that your initial claim isn't accurate:

7 hours ago, Mep said:

The only thing making TLTs better than all other turrets is that range 3.

If you extend the ranges of all the other turret upgrades (other than Autoblaster Turret), the TLT would still come out on top for someone whose primary decision factor was based around damage. You may have more people taking Ion Turrets for control, or taking Dorsal Turrets because they are cheap as hell, but someone who is looking to up the damage output of their squad will take TLT.

TLT needs a nerf? since when? ywing tlt spam isnt a thing and that was the only time it was truely a problem.

5 hours ago, WWHSD said:

I'm not saying that TLT is unbalanced, I'm saying that your initial claim isn't accurate:

If you extend the ranges of all the other turret upgrades (other than Autoblaster Turret), the TLT would still come out on top for someone whose primary decision factor was based around damage. You may have more people taking Ion Turrets for control, or taking Dorsal Turrets because they are cheap as hell, but someone who is looking to up the damage output of their squad will take TLT.

My statement is an opinion as is yours. Those opinions have accuracy depending on the situation. Over all TLT is the best turret in the game because it hits from range 3. Yes the other turrets also suck on damage output but they are really limited by range. TLT isn't that different from autoblaster, save the range, which is why autoblaster isn't usable. If Ion cannon was range 3 you would see a lot of them. If you take away the focus requirement and added in range 3 on blaster turret, I am sure it would see play. Even a range 3 dorsal turret becomes interesting. The fact is, for turret upgrades, it is TLT or bust, because of the range. People do downgrade to one of the others due to cost of the turret.

Until we have another range 3 upgrade turret it is hard to really say TLT is good as it has no competition, well, save for ships that have them by default. Falcons, super dash and the recently deceased jumpmasters saw a lot of play in their time. Yes the TLT has a gimmick that people like but range 3 turrets themselves do pretty good. So, no, I don't think one can say the TLT is good because of its gimmick when all the other upgrade turrets just suck but ships with a range 3 turret by default do very well for themselves.

1 minute ago, Mep said:

My statement is an opinion as is yours. Those opinions have accuracy depending on the situation. Over all TLT is the best turret in the game because it hits from range 3. Yes the other turrets also suck on damage output but they are really limited by range. TLT isn't that different from autoblaster, save the range, which is why autoblaster isn't usable. If Ion cannon was range 3 you would see a lot of them. If you take away the focus requirement and added in range 3 on blaster turret, I am sure it would see play. Even a range 3 dorsal turret becomes interesting. The fact is, for turret upgrades, it is TLT or bust, because of the range. People do downgrade to one of the others due to cost of the turret.

Until we have another range 3 upgrade turret it is hard to really say TLT is good as it has no competition, well, save for ships that have them by default. Falcons, super dash and the recently deceased jumpmasters saw a lot of play in their time. Yes the TLT has a gimmick that people like but range 3 turrets themselves do pretty good. So, no, I don't think one can say the TLT is good because of its gimmick when all the other upgrade turrets just suck but ships with a range 3 turret by default do very well for themselves.

The math tells us that TLTs are good. A TLT attack has an expected damage output against 3 agility targets that is better than a three dice attack and almost as good as a 4 dice attack.