6 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Well yes. That's why I pointed out a situation where they rolled less than max hits, where you need less than max evades, but could still die if you don't roll enough

46 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Yeah I think /x7 Defenders are still probably the best Imp ship.

And, not so sure, but I think the Palpshuttle still is one of the best ship in his price, mathematically, the number of free "shields" or free crits that Palp could provide in a few turnos overly compensare the 28pts fee.

Maybe more even now, if your opponent underestimate the post nerf Palp effectiveness and therefore doesn't priorice his destruccion.

People are focusing on what has been lost, not on what is still there. It's not even a 'glass half full' it's more like a 'a bit has been spilled off the top'.

Palp and a ship with LWF. Just sayin'.

1 hour ago, phild0 said:

People will even praise players 6 months from now for winning with upgrades deemed "trash due to nerf" with comments like "he must have flown really well to make that nerfed Palp X7s list win a whole event." Same for Manaroo and the other changes.

Much more so for Manaroo, IMO. Palpatine, TIE/x7, and Zuckuss are all still very good upgrades. Manaroo was just nuked, and I will definitely be impressed if people continue to win with her.

1 hour ago, AlexW said:

Palp and a ship with LWF. Just sayin'.

I remember a thread about rolling the LWF die seperately and how it would only matter if the Imperials got something like a C-3PO effect. Now it matters.

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Definitely not going to leave it up to the whim of a madman.

...Not pointed at anyone, but it had to happen.

3 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

Not gonna happen. When have they changed a card and just reversed it later? These changes are here to stay. You might as well get used to it.

Let's hope so

I think we need to look at this "from a certain point of view". The stuff at the top took a hit. However, what is now valid again due to it?

I like the changes.

1 hour ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Much more so for Manaroo, IMO. Palpatine, TIE/x7, and Zuckuss are all still very good upgrades. Manaroo was just nuked, and I will definitely be impressed if people continue to win with her.

Zuckuss got nuked too. Nobody was using it before if they couldn't ignore the stress. What makes you think they'd start now?

7 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

Zuckuss got nuked too. Nobody was using it before if they couldn't ignore the stress. What makes you think they'd start now?

Because I believe people will stop comparing him to the completely, utterly broken version of himself and give him a look as the intended "only extremely good" version of himself.

Compared to Broken-Ass Zuckuss, Intended Zuckuss really does suck ... but only as compared to Broken-Ass Zuckuss.

Intended Zuckuss is a very good card. And good players will find places for him.

15 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

Zuckuss got nuked too. Nobody was using it before if they couldn't ignore the stress. What makes you think they'd start now?

Inspiring Recruit

2 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

Well yes. That's why I pointed out a situation where they rolled less than max hits, where you need less than max evades, but could still die if you don't roll enough

You've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?

7 hours ago, LunarSol said:

Palp's guesswork is very different from C-3PO. Beyond being able to affect other ships it also works reliably on most Agility stats than C-3PO and attacks for that matter. Even focused, if you feel you really need it on agility three it only "fails" a quarter of the time. It's just way, way more reliable than 3PO.

Now that is a fair point, though with focus and evade it "fails" ~85% of the time against 3 hits as in "was not needed" on SD-Soontir. Your clarification is a good one.

8 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Now that is a fair point, though with focus and evade it "fails" ~85% of the time against 3 hits as in "was not needed" on SD-Soontir. Your clarification is a good one.

Yup, there's a million "it depends" and learning how each of them works is going to be important to making the most out of the old guy. The evade token itself is a good example. If there's another shot lined up on Soontir it's not really wasted, as you get to keep your evade token should it not be needed to use later. Alternatively, if there's no other shots coming his way, you can just treat it like 2 hits and decide how badly you need to block them both (which likely will depend on whether one or more is a crit). The more experience you have with the card, the more efficiently you can use it. Fwiw, this does make the idea of FO's options with Comm Relay's kind of an interesting solution.

3 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

Yup, there's a million "it depends" and learning how each of them works is going to be important to making the most out of the old guy. The evade token itself is a good example. If there's another shot lined up on Soontir it's not really wasted, as you get to keep your evade token should it not be needed to use later. Alternatively, if there's no other shots coming his way, you can just treat it like 2 hits and decide how badly you need to block them both (which likely will depend on whether one or more is a crit). The more experience you have with the card, the more efficiently you can use it. Fwiw, this does make the idea of FO's options with Comm Relay's kind of an interesting solution.

Jup, if you have benefits from the evade token, you emp use is only wasted half the time. Still, as the usual Palpatine carrier, the lambda shuttle is dead in two to three turns … you might end up with a lot of games where Palp is used purely a bait and just changes the result on attacks against his shuttle in hope to survive three instead of two turns of combat.

The whole power of Palpatine, his ability to change the outcome of an event in the most beneficial way possible is still gone. The emperor is dead. long live Kylo Ren. ;-)

3 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Much more so for Manaroo, IMO. Palpatine, TIE/x7, and Zuckuss are all still very good upgrades. Manaroo was just nuked, and I will definitely be impressed if people continue to win with her.

She's still a J5K though. I don't think you'll see her nearly as often and certainly not as the centerpiece of lists as she has been in the past. But when compared to the baseline of her undercosted chassis her ability is only being priced at 2 pts and frankly it's well worth that. So while she's probably been bumped down from tip top tier 1 to tier 1.5 there's an argument to be made for using her in any list you were going to use a U-boat in anyways so I don't think she'll completely disappear off the table.

9 minutes ago, Makaze said:

She's still a J5K though. I don't think you'll see her nearly as often and certainly not as the centerpiece of lists as she has been in the past. But when compared to the baseline of her undercosted chassis her ability is only being priced at 2 pts and frankly it's well worth that. So while she's probably been bumped down from tip top tier 1 to tier 1.5 there's an argument to be made for using her in any list you were going to use a U-boat in anyways so I don't think she'll completely disappear off the table.

That's a fair point. (Less than 2 points, really, as she is PS 4. Say 1.67 points.) I keep running the Manaroo nerf through my own filter of "how the JM5K should be fixed," and through that filter it's a serious nuking. On a (still) unfixed JM5K, though, she's reasonable, as you point out.

4 minutes ago, Makaze said:

there's an argument to be made for using her in any list you were going to use a U-boat in anyways

By that you mean a Scum list?

I'm one of the players that AlexW has referred to in his discussions with long-time Defender players. In my own testing, I've noticed a fairly minor power drop with the new x7 title. The main difference has been that my pre-title (or /D title) tactics are getting pulled out a little more often. With old x7 it's easy to get lazy and just ram the Defender in their at full speed and let dice sort it out. New x7 encourages the use of the bailout move to avoid the main shot, K-turn, and come back at the fight. Stay On the Leader is totally correct, though, in that all they've still got tremendous power. X7 preserves the Defender when it is most vulnerable and lets it use its action to set up Target Locks or Barrel Roll and still have some defense agaisnt the odd shot.

Good Defender play, in my experience, has always involved using asteroids to slice off portions of the opponent's squad so it is difficult to concentrate fire and using the Defender's K-turn and high power:footprint ratio to concentrate fire more effectively than the opposing squad. The new x7 title leans on those tactics a little more than the old x7 title, but actually relying on tactics is good for the game.

2 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

That's a fair point. (Less than 2 points, really, as she is PS 4. Say 1.67 points.) I keep running the Manaroo nerf through my own filter of "how the JM5K should be fixed," and through that filter it's a serious nuking. On a (still) unfixed JM5K, though, she's reasonable, as you point out.

Yeah she's no longer a unique support vehicle, but she's still 'Contracted Scout: Collectors Edition'

7 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Because I believe people will stop comparing him to the completely, utterly broken version of himself and give him a look as the intended "only extremely good" version of himself.

Compared to Broken-Ass Zuckuss, Intended Zuckuss really does suck ... but only as compared to Broken-Ass Zuckuss.

Intended Zuckuss is a very good card. And good players will find places for him.

I'm genuinely curious what places will these 'good players' find for Zuckuss.

So far only idea I've come up with is treating him as a discard-on-use card on alpha strike Bossk (zuckuss your missile shot as needed, any additional use you might get out of it is a bonus).

Regarding using Zuckuss with Inspiring Recruit on the Party Bus: what you're getting is a strictly worse version of the old Party Bus, a ship that was good, but not meta-dominant. I think it's going to be decent, but nothing to write home about (or win the next Worlds with). It's also not entirely unlikely a different crew combination will make a better Party Bus than Zuckuss+Inspiring Recruit.

8 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

I'm genuinely curious what places will these 'good players' find for Zuckuss.

So far only idea I've come up with is treating him as a discard-on-use card on alpha strike Bossk (zuckuss your missile shot as needed, any additional use you might get out of it is a bonus).

Regarding using Zuckuss with Inspiring Recruit on the Party Bus: what you're getting is a strictly worse version of the old Party Bus, a ship that was good, but not meta-dominant. I think it's going to be decent, but nothing to write home about (or win the next Worlds with). It's also not entirely unlikely a different crew combination will make a better Party Bus than Zuckuss+Inspiring Recruit.

I agree with everything you said.

Zuckuss was very good for the cost, no doubts there. However he was mainly used with dengar and party buses. Dengar was abusive with it, especially because of the double tap, party bus was very strong but also very beatable through focus fire or outmaneuvering the huge blind spot in the rear.

He was amazing for me as a way to counter all the high agility ships with token stacking and other defensive modifiers in the game currently, but it was pretty unfair against more "normal" ships.

I actually had a pretty good idea for a zuckuss fix, but it would have been very wordy. Basically something like, for every stress you have, you have one less dice you can force a reroll on. So for instance if you had one stress, you couldn't force a reroll on a 1-agility ship, but you could do 1 reroll on a 2-agility ship or 1-2 rerolls on a 3-agility ship, and so on.

Otherwise I would have just preferred a stress cap on it..maybe 3 or so. Or a cost increase. Along with only allowing it to be used once a round.

1 hour ago, markcsoul said:

I agree with everything you said.

Zuckuss was very good for the cost, no doubts there. However he was mainly used with dengar and party buses. Dengar was abusive with it, especially because of the double tap, party bus was very strong but also very beatable through focus fire or outmaneuvering the huge blind spot in the rear.

He was amazing for me as a way to counter all the high agility ships with token stacking and other defensive modifiers in the game currently, but it was pretty unfair against more "normal" ships.

I actually had a pretty good idea for a zuckuss fix, but it would have been very wordy. Basically something like, for every stress you have, you have one less dice you can force a reroll on. So for instance if you had one stress, you couldn't force a reroll on a 1-agility ship, but you could do 1 reroll on a 2-agility ship or 1-2 rerolls on a 3-agility ship, and so on.

Otherwise I would have just preferred a stress cap on it..maybe 3 or so. Or a cost increase. Along with only allowing it to be used once a round.

Dengaroo was a problem, and one of the things that should never have existed in this game IMO (alongside giant token stack Palp aces, U-boats and Sabine bomb spam ; all these stretch some mechanics to the limit and beyond).

With Zuckuss IMO FFG took the easy way out: they nuked the card so they don't have to account for the possibility to design a stress-immune Zuckus build with every single ship they release from now on.

4 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

Dengaroo was a problem, and one of the things that should never have existed in this game IMO (alongside giant token stack Palp aces, U-boats and Sabine bomb spam ; all these stretch some mechanics to the limit and beyond).

With Zuckuss IMO FFG took the easy way out: they nuked the card so they don't have to account for the possibility to design a stress-immune Zuckus build with every single ship they release from now on.

Zuckuss is still worth 1 point. Just... not more than that.

And inspiring plus zuck is still good.

--

Palp though. really isnt that good anymore.