1 hour ago, LunarSol said:

I'd rather just have an official app that lets me play using digitally updated cards, personally.

Yeah, except the LFL license for stuff is so archaic that PDF releases of their Star Wars RPG count as electronic games (or how ever it's parsed) and couldn't be released - actually printing the rules for the game in an app would probably require some kind of agreement with EA on that end.

3 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

To all those upset by the increase in pen and ink changes in this FAQ:

Errata sucks. It is annoying to own cards that no longer contain accurate information. Nobody likes it when their current list becomes less powerful because of some updated .pdf file on the interwebs. But, consider the alternative. If FFG is not willing to make these changes, X-wing will die much more quickly than you might believe possible. Yes, your Palpatine card is not worth as much as it was a week ago. If enough players leave the game due to poor balance, your Palpatine card will be worth zero moneys.

With that said, I would very much like to see an effort made to get updated copies of some of these cards into players' hands.

After reading 14 pages of reaction, I think this is probably the best post I have read out of many fine posts.

Overall, I think the changes are all OK.

X7 = this fix is utterly fine. You get -2 pts for the ship and you still get a free Evade token. You just have to not bump or be stressed. What's so terrible about this? The only thing I can think of is that it's not super Over Powered broken, so of course the tournament players hate it.

Palpatine = Completely reasonable fix. He's no longer utterly OP by letting you wait to see what you roll. You have to make decision as to when to use it. Still no range limit and still works for any die roll. Many people say that you know when you are going to use it most of the time. It just takes away the ability to roll and wait to see if you really really need it. It's still good, but just not OP broken anymore. Yes, it was OP and broken.

Manaroo = I agree that this is harsher than I thought it would be, but I don't think it's horrible. I was just listening to Mynock Squadron and they were saying with the Barrel Roll, the Jumpmaster is really maneuverable. So....maybe staying in R1 isn't quite as hard as one would think?

Zuckuss = is anyone really surprised by this one?

They all seem pretty common sense and bring balance to the game.

The award for Most Bombastic comment out of 14 pages goes to.......

16 hours ago, MalusCalibur said:

I can't help but feel that these changes are a response to a vocal minority of complaints, since they seem so laser-guided to the things that so often get whinged and moaned about (mostly baselessly), and not one of them feels right.

The Palpatine change is madness - forcing the player to make the call beforehand makes for a card that is not worth 8pts and two crew slots any longer, and baffles me since Palpatine is a much rarer sight at top tables than he used to be and certainly doesn't feel an overbearing presence on the meta at the moment.

/x7 has been hit too hard - making it cancellable by collisions, I understand (though I don't agree), but making it an action as well takes it too far. There were already a fairly strict set of conditions on that evade (have to go fast enough, lose out on two upgrade slots) on a still very expensive ship, and it was still just a token which is already vulnerable to so many other things. My worry now is that, with efficiency as cut-throat as it is and how little there is between the current Defender and the pre-Veterans joke of a ship, it might be veering closer to be being back there.

Manaroo really didn't need a range limit - her weakness is an almost total lack of contribution in firepower for the 30-odd points spent on her (it's a rare list that gives her the title) - but giving her one so strict again strikes me as overdoing it.

Zuckuss, a card that has only ever been problematic in one build (that being Dengar/Manaroo) goes over to being probably not worth taking on any ship at all besides the C-ROC, since it's unlikely to compete with the other Scum crews for such a situational effect. Adding a cap to how much stress you could have before using it, fine (though again, I argue that it isn't needed), but once again, the solution goes too far.

Meanwhile the most common meta-list at the moment, Mindlink Ventress/Fenn/*insert third ship here* remains untouched, as it can (and does) function perfectly well without Manaroo, and arguably better since it's not dependant on her.

With how awkward, overly punishing, and coincidentally specific all of these changes are, I fear they are more a result of kneejerk sledgehammering than careful consideration of balance and the overall game state, and genuinely don't think they improve anything since Mindlink will remain at the top whereas common counters are severely hampered.

Oh, and the belief that a small minority of people on the forums that complained loud enough is the reason for these changes is hogwash. The majority of players....not just tournament players...agrees with there being a problem with all 4 cards.

35 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

the laminations of their women would be unbearable.

That's my fetish.

I think all of this points to pretty poor playtesting and development of the JM5K. This expansion and its cards have required way more continued support and have caused way more imbalance than they ever should have.

I don't know whether to be encouraged at the steps taken to right the wrong or disgusted that uboats, Dengaroo, and Parattani all dominated the meta so heavily and have required repeated rule changes... why did this expansion lack any real quality control/understanding of meta impact?

Just now, Lobokai said:

I think all of this points to pretty poor playtesting and development of the JM5K. This expansion and its cards have required way more continued support and have caused way more imbalance than they ever should have.

I don't know whether to be encouraged at the steps taken to right the wrong or disgusted that uboats, Dengaroo, and Parattani all dominated the meta so heavily and have required repeated rule changes... why did this expansion lack any real quality control/understanding of meta impact?

Wasn't jump so poerful simply because scums have been really, really underwhelming before JM5K release? Genuine question, I only started playing Xwing couple of months after jumps release.

2 minutes ago, Voitek said:

Wasn't jump so poerful simply because scums have been really, really underwhelming before JM5K release? Genuine question, I only started playing Xwing couple of months after jumps release.

It's very possible. Scum had been the red headed stepchild of competitive x-wing from launch until JM5k. Odds are they tried to give Scum something really good.

3 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

To all those upset by the increase in pen and ink changes in this FAQ:

Errata sucks. It is annoying to own cards that no longer contain accurate information. Nobody likes it when their current list becomes less powerful because of some updated .pdf file on the interwebs. But, consider the alternative. If FFG is not willing to make these changes, X-wing will die much more quickly than you might believe possible. Yes, your Palpatine card is not worth as much as it was a week ago. If enough players leave the game due to poor balance, your Palpatine card will be worth zero moneys.

With that said, I would very much like to see an effort made to get updated copies of some of these cards into players' hands.

My plan is to simply print out the current cards, which FFG has very nicely provided on the update (I saved all the images to HD) and slip them into the card protector with the original.

Those of a more frugal bent could do a similar thing with a handwritten sticky note.

7 minutes ago, Voitek said:

Wasn't jump so poerful simply because scums have been really, really underwhelming before JM5K release? Genuine question, I only started playing Xwing couple of months after jumps release.

There is this argument, along with the fact that 2 attack large base PWTs had largely flopped up to this point. One can conclude that they felt a need to get one out that was usable. Clearly they went overboard.

12 minutes ago, Lobokai said:

I think all of this points to pretty poor playtesting and development of the JM5K. This expansion and its cards have required way more continued support and have caused way more imbalance than they ever should have.

I don't know whether to be encouraged at the steps taken to right the wrong or disgusted that uboats, Dengaroo, and Parattani all dominated the meta so heavily and have required repeated rule changes... why did this expansion lack any real quality control/understanding of meta impact?

Yeah. How could they design something that failed. It's like they were the first to do it.

49 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

[Laminations of women.]

That's my fetish.

You must be a plastic fantastic lover.

48 minutes ago, Lobokai said:

I think all of this points to pretty poor playtesting and development of the JM5K. This expansion and its cards have required way more continued support and have caused way more imbalance than they ever should have.

Yes, the JM5K was a mistake. Designers and playtesters are human. News at 11.

Quote

I don't know whether to be encouraged at the steps taken to right the wrong or disgusted that uboats, Dengaroo, and Parattani all dominated the meta so heavily and have required repeated rule changes... why did this expansion lack any real quality control/understanding of meta impact?

First, it didn't actually require "repeated rule changes." That's an FFG choice. FFG could have fixed it with a broad-based change: +2 to JM5K costs across the board, -2 to PO title, Jankymech moved from base chassis to PO title. For various reasons that I personally believe to be dysfunctional and non-sustainable, FFG chooses to correct symptoms, piecemeal and ad hoc, rather than correct the actual problems that come up. That's also not news ... ******* Large-Boost is still a problem waiting dormant to break the meta again.

But, to be fair, if they had corrected the actual problems, you would see just as much bitching ... just from different people.

As for "why" we screwed up the JM5K, I can only speak for myself (and to a limited extent for my group): I simply didn't see all of the possible combinations in the vast number of upgrade slots the JM5K has. The strongest of those combinations, combined with the JM5K's durability and maneuverability, broke the ship. It's simply too cheap for what it is does, and as more and more Jankymechs, Illicits, and Crew are released, other broken combos using the JM5K are sure to be discovered. And, FFG being FFG, unfortunately they'll be dealt with piecemeal, too.

1 hour ago, Voitek said:

Wasn't jump so poerful simply because scums have been really, really underwhelming before JM5K release? Genuine question, I only started playing Xwing couple of months after jumps release.

Thug Lyfe and Brobots were both very good before JM5K.

Okay, I think my legit question was regarded as snark.

I'm serious. Why was the JM5K such a train wreck? What about this expansion ran wild?

was it using a mechanic so subtle that it required a massive sample set to be revealed? Was it a set of special abilities that it's reasonable to have missed their stacking effects? Because post-mortem the runaway OPness seems obvious. Most of this came from the same expansion it came right out of the gate and it crescendoed to an almost identical build running away.

Yes, cute, others have made mistakes before. So we ignore it and give it no reflection? I'm wanting to stay on the blimp even after the Hindenburg burned. I'd like a little thought as to what caused the crash.

1 hour ago, LordBlades said:

It's very possible. Scum had been the red headed stepchild of competitive x-wing from launch until JM5k. Odds are they tried to give Scum something really good.

Little doubt. The problem is, with only ~3 ship slots in a 100 point list, X-Wing is an incredibly fragile game when it comes to using new ships to change the game. One ship, even slightly above the curve, can easily replace all ships. The unique dot is really the game's only defense against this unfortunately, but the system really only uses this for characters. :\

1 hour ago, LordBlades said:

It's very possible. Scum had been the red headed stepchild of competitive x-wing from launch until JM5k. Odds are they tried to give Scum something really good.

Yeah, you have to go back in time and remember that other than IG-88, and Thug life, Scum had nothing. Scyk (sucked), Kiracjsjkdhkjfhgs (sucked) Star Viper (overcosted with one good pilot, I mean, sucked). All of these ships FFG was waaaay overly cautious with, which led to the Scum having really nothing outside of Brobots and TLT spam. I am convinced that this track record gave FFG a stilted view of the Jumpmaster when they were playtesting it, as they desperately wanted Scum to be competitive. Well, they definitely succeeded, boy did they ever, by creating a ship that is at least 3 point undercosted, you bet your butt they are competitive. Plus arguably the best dial in the game, plus only the second large base ship to see a barrel roll (arguably the best action on a big based ship) plus a crazy upgrade bar and the only lowest generic pilot in the game to also get an EPT!!!! (Even the A-wing title is restricted from the lowest) It's almost like a fan-made ship designed to be OP, but was officially released. I still can't believe it, but everyone makes mistakes, and like I said, at the time, Scum had been given dud after dud (even the slaver was a joke before Zuckuss), so pity for Scum clouded their judgement. My concern is that the fundamental problem with the jumpmaster still remains, and Triple Jumps with Attanni Mindlink or Paratanni with a Torp Boat replacing Fenn become the new norm. The ship is still possibly the best buy in the game for what it has.

2 minutes ago, SirCormac said:

Yeah, you have to go back in time and remember that other than IG-88, and Thug life, Scum had nothing. Scyk (sucked), Kiracjsjkdhkjfhgs (sucked) Star Viper (overcosted with one good pilot, I mean, sucked). All of these ships FFG was waaaay overly cautious with, which led to the Scum having really nothing outside of Brobots and TLT spam. I am convinced that this track record gave FFG a stilted view of the Jumpmaster when they were playtesting it, as they desperately wanted Scum to be competitive. Well, they definitely succeeded, boy did they ever, by creating a ship that is at least 3 point undercosted, you bet your butt they are competitive. Plus arguably the best dial in the game, plus only the second large base ship to see a barrel roll (arguably the best action on a big based ship) plus a crazy upgrade bar and the only lowest generic pilot in the game to also get an EPT!!!! (Even the A-wing title is restricted from the lowest) It's almost like a fan-made ship designed to be OP, but was officially released. I still can't believe it, but everyone makes mistakes, and like I said, at the time, Scum had been given dud after dud (even the slaver was a joke before Zuckuss), so pity for Scum clouded their judgement. My concern is that the fundamental problem with the jumpmaster still remains, and Triple Jumps with Attanni Mindlink or Paratanni with a Torp Boat replacing Fenn become the new norm. The ship is still possibly the best buy in the game for what it has.

You also need to remember the first wave of expansions for Scum (wave 7), which brought the Kihraxz (DOA) and the YV-666 (which only began to shine after wave 8 released some more good Scum crew)

7 hours ago, Voitek said:

Because Autothrusters are the last thing that keeps us away from TLT spammed hell.

The U-boats did a pretty good job, but they got nerfed, and nerfed again, and again.

1 minute ago, Marinealver said:

The U-boats did a pretty good job, but they got nerfed, and nerfed again, and again.

Jumpmasters with Attanni Mindlink aren't:

Maybe FFG can hire John Cleese to kill them off for good!

12 minutes ago, Lobokai said:

Okay, I think my legit question was regarded as snark.

I'm serious. Why was the JM5K such a train wreck? What about this expansion ran wild?

was it using a mechanic so subtle that it required a massive sample set to be revealed? Was it a set of special abilities that it's reasonable to have missed their stacking effects? Because post-mortem the runaway OPness seems obvious. Most of this came from the same expansion it came right out of the gate and it crescendoed to an almost identical build running away.

Yes, cute, others have made mistakes before. So we ignore it and give it no reflection? I'm wanting to stay on the blimp even after the Hindenburg burned. I'd like a little thought as to what caused the crash.

OK, fair enough. You did reference my second graphic, however

My completely unfounded opinion: design was so focused on the uniqueness of the imbalanced dial (which absolutely no one talks about as a weakness) that they let the rest of the ship's abilities run heavier on the side of capability. And since the dial does not actually hinder it as planned in terms of maneuvering predictability, the ship does really (read "too") well.

Gimme your best shot back.

16 minutes ago, SirCormac said:

... only lowest generic pilot in the game to also get an EPT!!!! (Even the A-wing title is restricted from the lowest) ...

The Scum Firespray has an EPT on its lowest PS (and only) generic.

The Aggressor beat it to having an EPT available to every pilot.

7 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

My completely unfounded opinion: design was so focused on the uniqueness of the imbalanced dial (which absolutely no one talks about as a weakness)

That's because the "weak" side of the dial is what many ships call "average".

22 minutes ago, Lobokai said:

Okay, I think my legit question was regarded as snark.

I'm serious. Why was the JM5K such a train wreck? What about this expansion ran wild?

was it using a mechanic so subtle that it required a massive sample set to be revealed? Was it a set of special abilities that it's reasonable to have missed their stacking effects? Because post-mortem the runaway OPness seems obvious. Most of this came from the same expansion it came right out of the gate and it crescendoed to an almost identical build running away.

Yes, cute, others have made mistakes before. So we ignore it and give it no reflection? I'm wanting to stay on the blimp even after the Hindenburg burned. I'd like a little thought as to what caused the crash.

I think Dengaroo was something that got missed. It took a while for it to really show its face.

Manaroo with Mindlink was always pretty good but I think that it really needed the Scum ships from Wave 9 to become dominant.

I think that the impact of U-Boats was definitely underestimated. Just one of them in a squad wasn't bad. Against squads that could deal with the alpha strike, even a triple U-Boat list wasn't too bad. It's the larger effect on the meta that caused U-Boats to be problematic, and that's something that you can't really play test for.

13 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

The Scum Firespray has an EPT on its lowest PS (and only) generic.

The Aggressor beat it to having an EPT available to every pilot.

The Firespray is weird because, overall, the lowest generic is the Bounty Hunter for the imperials, at pilot skill 3. A pilot skill 5 with an EPT isn't as egregious.

IG88s are obviously a unique case, but since none of them are generic, it's fine.

If there is a 10 Commandments of X-Wing design, one them should read:

"Thou shalt not give the lowest generic of a particular ship an EPT".

Breaking this rule was one of the major problems with contracted scouts.

6 minutes ago, SirCormac said:

The Firespray is weird because, overall, the lowest generic is the Bounty Hunter for the imperials, at pilot skill 3. A pilot skill 5 with an EPT isn't as egregious.

IG88s are obviously a unique case, but since none of them are generic, it's fine.

If there is a 10 Commandments of X-Wing design, one them should read:

"Thou shalt not give the lowest generic of a particular ship an EPT".

Breaking this rule was one of the major problems with contracted scouts.

I think that's a dumb rule, especially when there's only a single generic pilot for a ship. I'd like to see more pilots with EPT slots, not less.