instead of hijacking other threads I will reply to these comments here.

Staton:
"Also I just don't get how everyone seems to think that Outfox would be the worst thing to ever happen to LCG!"

Stag Lord
"Why anyone would think Plot cancel would be a bad thing is beyond me."

Death Jester
"There needs to be a plot cancel."

Let me clear up a few misconceptions.

First I am not against plot cancel. What I *am* against is simply reprinting an old stand-by. Dormouse really presents this argument the best in Mathlete's new thread and I will take the liberty of quoting him for why I am opposed to re-printing Outfox in a general sense:

Dormouse:

"The various calls for fixes to the environment almost exclusively ignore the new direction of the LCG (NSTAAFL) and ask for the cream of the crop CCG cards back which were easy and required little commitment, or effort for a major effect. I think it is pretty clear these kinds of cards aren't coming back. I think the LCG is actually more tactical because you have more to manage, and have to work harder to get a similar payoff."

Outfox in my opinion is exactly that, it is easy, requires little thought in deck construction and little commitment.

To simplify what bothers about Outfox in particular: It is a biased Counter against When Revealed plots. There are many passive effect plots that are bit as powerful as When Revealed plot effects. If there "needs" to be Plot Cancel then I firmly believe that any Plot Cancel NEEDS to able to affect ANY plot effect not just When Revealed plots.

I would prefer Plot Cancel to not just be another plot which, IMO, over simplifies the deck building process and just homogenizes plot decks across Houses in a bland manner.

I already presented some of my ideas in the other thread but basically if Plot Cancel effects are instituted I would prefer them done in a different manner for each House reflecting that House's mechanics. Or a neutral character like that this:

Archmaester Marwyn (neutral)

3(or 4) Gold

2 Str with Int, Pow icons

Plot Phase: Discard Archmaester Marwyn to cancel the printed effect of any single player's plot card.

or maybe

Plot Phase: Kneel Archmaester Marwyn to cancel printed effect of any single player's plot card and force them to reveal a new plot card.

LaughingTree said:

if you have this option you have to change it to opponent's or else city plots just got really really really nasty....

on a side note, you might have to fix your templetaing a bit, does that cancel passives that happen in other phases? say the challenge phase or the standing phase?

I'd be fien with Staton's altenrate Plot. I would be fine if Outfox stayed on the Legacy shelf. I just want there to be a downside to Valar - a Plot I was already sick of in 2004.

When Outmaneuver was still legal.

Your character isn't bad - but you still have to draw or Summon him. I think a Plot is more of a deterrent.

See I don't like characters or locations or pretty much any non-plot plot cancel. That just means that someone will somehow find an easy repeatable way to cancel all your plots. I agree that just reprinting Outfox would be pretty lame. Just for reference here's my idea.

Outwit

2/2/1

Cancel each opponent's first "when revealed" plot this round. Then each opponent who has had a plot canceled this way may reveal a new plot.

Also what if we have another plot for passive cancels? Forgotten Path or something right? We could print a new plot like that. Then it would make deck building slightly more decisive because you'd have to choose one or the other. or just include both but then run the risk of having two plots be useless.

Staton said:

I don´t think that we´ll see a plot like that one you suggested. it isn´t bad idea, but remember taht gathering storm and outmaneuver was banned from the format because this plot were said to be to complicated for a melee game. I can´t see how Outwit would become less complicated.

Forgotten plans was the name of the plot that canceled the revealed gametext of a plot, forgotten path was a cool starl location which costs 2 gold and allows an additional military challenge (I&F block). However Forgotten plans was a very rare addition to most decks, the best plot it could cancel was a good god´s own kiss and the 5/7/1 vanilla plots. I don´t think that a reprint would be welcome since we already have a strong and dominat "when revealed cycle" with the city plots.

Well the only reason that Gathering was banned in multi was because of the way you could keep a chain going. So people could reveal like three or four new plots in a single phase. But I put the restriction of canceling only the first plot revealed by each player.

Staton said:

Sure. I´m also not with that original FFG reasoning, i thought it would just be consequent to avoid multi plot reveal to make the game easier. In the worst case every player except the one that played Outwit has to reveal a new plot card, at least that could be a little confusing for players which are new to the game.

LaughingTree said:

Templating aside (for example, you cannot have a triggered "cancel" effect that is not a Response), how do these statements jive for plots like Song of Summer, Winds of Winter, Threat from the North and other constant effect plots? There are some effects - many of them on plots - that just cannot be canceled. The timing structure of the game doesn't allow for it.

I'd suggest looking into text blanking possibilities if you truly feel that if something can stop the effects of one plot, it should be able to stop the effects of all plots.

ktom said:

Thats exactly what I was going towards as I do firmly believe that "When Revealed" plots should not be easy to cancel without passive plots facing the same effect.

Instead of a "plot cancel" I would prefer a way of text blanking a plot card, that way it is balanced against any plot card.

LaughingTree said:

Does this feeling extend to other types of cards and effects, too? For example do you feel there is something wrong with the fact that it is much easier to cancel a triggered character ability than a passive one, which is easier to cancel than a constant one? I'm just curious if this belief is specific to plots or extends to cancels in general.

What I don't understand is why you want plot cancel/blanking to be draw deck based instead of plot deck based. Why is that better?

ktom said:

ktom said:

Its in relation to the current discussion revolving around the "need for a plot cancel". Personally I don't any "need" for a plot cancel for When Revealed plots but if there is something implemented, then I feel every plot effect should be vulnerable to being cancelled/blanked as many passive plots are just as strong as the few When Revealed plots that people feel justify a plot cancel for When Revealed. While some posters may feel that some When Revealed plots are too good and need a cancel my experience is the reverse where some of the very good passive plot effects have hurt me. If When Revealed's require a cancel then I believe passive effects do as well (such as the Fury's plots passive effect which for some Houses is amazingly strong).

I don't see the distinction between passive and triggered as relevant with the current cardpool for characters and locations since in gameplay situations the ways to control character and location usually just remove the card from play or like Milk of the Poppy takes care of both triggered abilities and passive character abilities thus making it irrelevant whether the potent ability is active or passive.

kpmccoy21 said:

For one, because that is a mechanic that hasn't been fully explored therefore it is new and offers new possibilities instead of going back to the "same old, same old". I am not saying that it is objectively better solution but it is a different solution and I don't think it is objectively worse either. Just different.

Additionally I am more interested in making sure that any Plot Negation targets ANY plot effect, When Revealed or Passive, and is not biased against When Revealed plots.

I'm with you that plot blanking cancel would be better hitting all plots instead of When revealed effects only. I thought Forgotten Plans was a great card that got rotated too soon.

I am of the persuasion that only plots should cancel plots and no other card should be immune to plots. But obviously Nate doesn't share this view.

LaughingTree said:

The relevance is for cancels. None of the character/location control you mention actually cancels anything and essentially requires you to stop your opponent from having the opportunity to use the card in the first place. Cancels allow you to avoid the effects after they have been triggered. (This, BTW, is a potential limitation of cancels; they don't actually help your in-game position. However, as far as plots are concerned, that's why some people like the idea of "when revealed" plot cancel; with no advance warning, you can't use control to avoid them.)

My question was effectively trying to figure out if you thought cancels in general were narrow, or if it was simply cancels as applied to plots. It's a characteristic of cancels - they can only stop something with a point of initiation. And many of them actually specify "cancel an effect just triggered" or "cancel a triggered effect," which means they can't cancel passive abilities, even if the passive does have a point of initiation. Essentially, I'm asking the general question "are cancels inequitable as a general rule, or do the problems only surface when applied to plot effects?"

ktom said:

Ah, I guess using the word "cancel" was not accurate. It should be more 'counters in general' that I am talking about. I am not talking about the draw deck at all just the plot deck.

For plots, I believe any "plot cancel" should be a plot text blank effect instead that hits passive effects as well as When Revealed effects.

LaughingTree said:

Makes sense. Keep in mind that the use of the phrase "plot cancel" by most of the other folks in this thread is indeed referring to the activate-interrupt-resolve model, applied specifically to "when revealed" plot effects because of what I mentioned before - the inability to accurately see the effect coming before its initiation. Consider their position specifically from that point of view, instead of the more general "plot effect counter," and it may shade their feelings a bit.

You do make good points, though, in asking people to stretch their imagination and consideration beyond effects that we have already seen and/or experienced in the past. The LCG model is a new day and warrants some "out of the box" thinking, especially if the goal is general plot counters rather than specific cancels.

LaughingTree said: