12 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

Currently the only rules we have for things set aside is : A they have no orders, B no effect on the game till placed, C have dials and sliders set when they are placed on the game board. D if you lose every ship on the board before placing set aside ship/squads, they are also counted as lost.

and E: they are destroyed "If any portion of a ship's or squadron's base is outside the play area," .

we also have these rules (F ... are we at F?):

45 minutes ago, thecolourred said:

and E: they are destroyed "If any portion of a ship's or squadron's base is outside the play area," .

we also have these rules (F ... are we at F?):

" Set each shield dial and squadron disk to its maximum shield and hull values. Then set the activation slider of each squadron to display the blue end of the slider with the a icon. Assign the appropriate defense tokens to each ship and unique squadron. Gather enough command dials and speed dials for the eet. Assign ID tokens to ships and squadrons as necessary. "

That is game set up, prior to placing on the game board.
Hyperspace specifically says, you set no command dials, until the ship is placed on the play area, and activation sliders are set when the units are placed on the game board for the first time.

Also that E is for units already on the game board, and what happens if any part of them leave the game board after they were placed in the play area and after the game has started.

Not quite sure what point you are trying to make, but you're making it poorly.

Just now, TheEasternKing said:

That is game set up, prior to placing on the game board, Hyperspace overrules and has separate rules, which are the ones I posted.

Also that E is for units already on the game board, and what happens if any part of them leave the game board after they were placed in the play area and the game started.

Not quite sure what point you are trying to make, but you're making it poorly.

did you actually read the rules? in how nowhere does it say that "Play Area" is only for units already on the game board.

As a matter of fact, it is a related topic to setup.

Also, if you aren't playing hyperspace assault, you don't use its card, nor its rules, who specifically state the ones set aside on that card in the FAQ.

Basically, the more you look into the rules as written, the more you come to the fact that everything blows up during step 2 of the setup phase. But assuming that we DONT blow up during the setup phase, we AREN"T playing hyperspace assault, and the squadrons set aside for RLB are NOT the squadrons set aside for Hyperspace assault, so you don't use its special ruling to set the toggle to the current (unactivated) state.

OR: are you saying we DO follow that, in which case we deploy the squadron's with the current, unactivated state. Shoot with them for RLB, then activate them A SECOND TIME with the next ship, since they are still on the current turn's slider?

If you follow Hyperspace Assault (Which would be cheating if you are playing a different objective), then the following is possible:

RLB + (Yarvaris + adar Tallon) + a third ship's squadron activation == 4 shots in one turn.

I clearly said, we only have Hyperspace to go on for the rules of set aside squadrons.

Without Hyperspace you cannot set anything aside, everything is placed in your deployment area, then they added RLB, which is exactly the same as Hyperspace, you set aside squadrons, and place them after set up has been completed and the game started.

And my posts in the mammoth RLB thread, are as such that RLB allows you to place squadrons one at a time, upto your squadron value, shoot with them if you so chose, and then flip them to activated for the round.

2 hours ago, TheEasternKing said:

I clearly said, we only have Hyperspace to go on for the rules of set aside squadrons.

Without Hyperspace you cannot set anything aside, everything is placed in your deployment area, then they added RLB, which is exactly the same as Hyperspace, you set aside squadrons, and place them after set up has been completed and the game started.

And my posts in the mammoth RLB thread, are as such that RLB allows you to place squadrons one at a time, upto your squadron value, shoot with them if you so chose, and then flip them to activated for the round.

Where exactly in the Hyperspace Assault card / errata, or the RLB card, did you see the word "shoot" or anything that would put them on the activated side? I'm looking, but its kinda early here, so maybe I missed it. Can you pull out your quotes from the rules reference?

Thanks.

28 minutes ago, thecolourred said:

Where exactly in the Hyperspace Assault card / errata, or the RLB card, did you see the word "shoot" or anything that would put them on the activated side? I'm looking, but its kinda early here, so maybe I missed it. Can you pull out your quotes from the rules reference?

Thanks.

Last try I guess.

You quoted a lot of things from the RRG that have no bearing on set aside units, I told you FFG have given us rules for Hyperspace, which covers set aside units, and how they interact with the game.

Then I said RLB and my personal view/opinion is a secondary way to activate squadrons. The icon we see on the upgrade card is to denote squadron activation, usually when you chose to activate squadrons, you pick some in range of the activating ship, you can then activate a number upto your squadron value, and they can move, shoot, or shoot and not move, or move and not shoot, or do nothing at all with them and flip their activation sliders.
RLB gives you an alternate option, instead of activating squadrons already on the table, you may instead choose to launch the set aside squadrons, and you do so one at a time, it tells you they have to be placed at distance 1 of the activating ship (this is the move portion of a standard squadron activation) it also says they cannot move this activation, again leading me to believe that the placement is a replacement action for movement, but you can and are allowed to shoot when you activate a squadron, hence you place, shoot and flip the slider to show its been activated.

But you are of course free to argue that squadron rules are not in the RRG for you to read.

We do have clear rules for handling set aside units.

The problem is, those rules instruct us to deploy such units unactivated . This seems to be at odds with the RLB wording, which means either:

1. The RLB wording must be understood differently (e.g. "this activation" meaning " your activation", i.e. the ship's), or
2. The Hyperspace Assault rules do not apply (at least not fully), and further clarification is needed to determine how to handle units set aside by RLB.

Neither option is particularly attractive.

6 hours ago, thecolourred said:

Noodles... Page 9, Play Area:

"If any portion of a ship's or squadron's base is outside the play area, that ship or squadron is destroyed".

Guess RLB kills your squads.

It does not.

The Golden Rules Apply.

Effects on components such as cards sometimes contradict rules found in the Learn to Play or Rules Reference booklets. In these situations, the component’s effect takes precedence.

You're just being adversarial now. It does not become you.

1 hour ago, TheEasternKing said:

Last try I guess.

You quoted a lot of things from the RRG that have no bearing on set aside units, I told you FFG have given us rules for Hyperspace, which covers set aside units, and how they interact with the game.

Then I said RLB and my personal view/opinion is a secondary way to activate squadrons. The icon we see on the upgrade card is to denote squadron activation, usually when you chose to activate squadrons, you pick some in range of the activating ship, you can then activate a number upto your squadron value, and they can move, shoot, or shoot and not move, or move and not shoot, or do nothing at all with them and flip their activation sliders.
RLB gives you an alternate option, instead of activating squadrons already on the table, you may instead choose to launch the set aside squadrons, and you do so one at a time, it tells you they have to be placed at distance 1 of the activating ship (this is the move portion of a standard squadron activation) it also says they cannot move this activation, again leading me to believe that the placement is a replacement action for movement, but you can and are allowed to shoot when you activate a squadron, hence you place, shoot and flip the slider to show its been activated.

But you are of course free to argue that squadron rules are not in the RRG for you to read.

I have a qualm with this reasoning:

RLB gives you an alternate option, instead of activating squadrons already on the table, you may instead choose to launch the set aside squadrons, and you do so one at a time, it tells you they have to be placed at distance 1 of the activating ship (this is the move portion of a standard squadron activation) it also says they cannot move this activation, again leading me to believe that the placement is a replacement action for movement, but you can and are allowed to shoot when you activate a squadron, hence you place, shoot and flip the slider to show its been activated.

By this same reasoning, Repair crews gives us an alternate option, instead of getting our engineering points, I may instead remove a damage card from a ship. The key word there is "instead". By your use of this word, I would still get the engineering points from the engineering order (since it has the icon). This seems wrong.

I believe "Instead" means this effect entirely replaces the first choice (instead of getting engineering points, you get to remove a card. Instead of activating a squadron, you get to "place" one of the set aside squadrons [a la hyperspace assault it MUST be unactivated]). Your goal in this case is trying to double dip and get both engineering points AND remove a damage card; get both a squadron placed AND a squadron activated.

How did you go from Hyperspace Assault's "the squadrons are placed unactivated" to "the squadron may now shoot" which is not stated in either the RLB or the Hyperspace assault?

1 hour ago, Drasnighta said:

It does not.

The Golden Rules Apply.

Effects on components such as cards sometimes contradict rules found in the Learn to Play or Rules Reference booklets. In these situations, the component’s effect takes precedence.

You're just being adversarial now. It does not become you.

TBH, I wrote this at 3 in the morning, and soon after I came to the conclusion that you can't deploy ANYTHING, since EVERYTHING dies before it is deployed (since its placed off to the side during the setup phase), and as such, Rules As Written, the second player wins every game before deployment in a 6-5.

I then closed my laptop and went to sleep.

1 hour ago, DiabloAzul said:

We do have clear rules for handling set aside units.

The problem is, those rules instruct us to deploy such units unactivated . This seems to be at odds with the RLB wording, which means either:

1. The RLB wording must be understood differently (e.g. "this activation" meaning " your activation", i.e. the ship's), or
2. The Hyperspace Assault rules do not apply (at least not fully), and further clarification is needed to determine how to handle units set aside by RLB.

Neither option is particularly attractive.

or (3) instead of activating a squadron, you place one of your set aside [unactivated] squadrons at range one of your ship. [You then choose and activate another squadron until you are done with the squadron command]. This satisfies both RLB wording as well as Hyperspace Assault wording, as well as Squadron Activation Command wording in the Rules Reference.

Welcome to #TeamPurple

6 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Welcome to #TeamPurple

ok, so team purple is rules as written, and team orange is "instead is defined as 'in addition to'"?

(in case you were wondering, I went and looked this up, since my first language is Texan):

14 minutes ago, thecolourred said:

ok, so team purple is rules as written, and team orange is "instead is defined as 'in addition to'"?

(in case you were wondering, I went and looked this up, since my first language is Texan):

in·stead

inˈsted/

adverb

1. as an alternative or substitute.

You should go contribute your groundbreaking insights to the 20-page thread in which this has all already been argued to death-- after you've read the whole thing--instead of rehashing old points here.

8 hours ago, thecolourred said:

you're right, i see my error: all those squadrons are dead...

Ironically you're further making my point about being worse than wrong with that line of reasoning as TheEasternKing took the trouble to outline. As has been pointed out you're simply being adversarial at this point.

Or to put it in "Texan," you're being a horse's ass.

5 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

Ironically you're further making my point about being worse than wrong with that line of reasoning as TheEasternKing took the trouble to outline. As has been pointed out you're simply being adversarial at this point.

Or to put it in "Texan," you're being a horse's ass.

actually, the whole point that i'm trying to point out is that you can't be selective on the ruling: if you're going to use Hyperspace Assault's FAQ/errata to say your fighters are in fact not dead, you need to use the same Hyperspace Assault's FAQ/errata in the fact that they get placed "unactivated" on the table with RLB.

Now, whether this lets them shoot or not is something else (which I have yet to see Rules As Written in the 20 page discussion that says they get to shoot when they are placed).

1 hour ago, thecolourred said:

actually, the whole point that i'm trying to point out is that you can't be selective on the ruling: if you're going to use Hyperspace Assault's FAQ/errata to say your fighters are in fact not dead, you need to use the same Hyperspace Assault's FAQ/errata in the fact that they get placed "unactivated" on the table with RLB.

Now, whether this lets them shoot or not is something else (which I have yet to see Rules As Written in the 20 page discussion that says they get to shoot when they are placed).

Except that RLB specifically states, they may not move this activation, and they are being activated, they have to be to be placed.

15 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

Except that RLB specifically states, they may not move this activation, and they are being activated, they have to be to be placed.

"for each squadron you would activate with this command, you may instead place 1 of your set aside squadrons within distance 1"

"Place 1 of your set aside squadrons within distance 1"

Now, how do you activate a squadron?

Is your set aside squadron at close-medium range? no . Does this upgrade card say "activate a set aside squadron even though it is not at close-medium range"? no .

Since this is a SHIP UPGRADE CARD, the second sentence "The squadron may not move this activation" it is clearly the ship's activation, since you default to the ship on any ship upgrade cards. (you default to squadron's on squadron upgrade cards).

Please present a section of the Rules Reference that lets you activate a set aside squadron, or text on the RLB card that lets you activate a set aside squadron. Not what you WANT it to be. I WANT salvation to have another sentence that says "the fore squadron battery of this ship is increased by 4 black dice", but it doesn't.

Edit:

also, see the definition of "instead".

1 hour ago, thecolourred said:

"for each squadron you would activate with this command, you may instead place 1 of your set aside squadrons within distance 1"

"Place 1 of your set aside squadrons within distance 1"

Now, how do you activate a squadron?

• Dial: Activate a number of friendly squadrons up to the ship’s squadron value that are at close–medium range of the ship.

Is your set aside squadron at close-medium range? no . Does this upgrade card say "activate a set aside squadron even though it is not at close-medium range"? no .

Since this is a SHIP UPGRADE CARD, the second sentence "The squadron may not move this activation" it is clearly the ship's activation, since you default to the ship on any ship upgrade cards. (you default to squadron's on squadron upgrade cards).

Please present a section of the Rules Reference that lets you activate a set aside squadron, or text on the RLB card that lets you activate a set aside squadron. Not what you WANT it to be. I WANT salvation to have another sentence that says "the fore squadron battery of this ship is increased by 4 black dice", but it doesn't.

Edit:

also, see the definition of "instead".

Ok, but following your line of thought then where in the upgrade card says that when you place the squadron you set the activation slider to the correct color?
Because if you only place the squadron and it doesn't activate because of RLB, then you would only be able to activate it later that turn if it's an odd turn, because if it's an even turn you'll only be able to activate squadrons with the activation slider set in red, and the squadrons set will have it on blue as you never toggled them before. Do you think that would be how it works? It's obvious in this case that they didn't have enough space in the card to explain everything needed to fully understand how it works.

Also, the "It cannot move this activation" can refer to the squadron activation as you (the ship) activate it when you resolve a squadron command. I know it could be interpreted the other way too, but I really don't know how else could be writen to be clear that it refers to the squadron (in case that's how it works, of course)

I totally think that the squadron is activated when you place it and cannot move but can attack. But I know other people think differently and until a FAQ is released we'll never know for sure which interpretation is correct

I will put just this stupid post to help you reach another 19 page of discussion.

Yes you can!

45 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

I will put just this stupid post to help you reach another 19 page of discussion.

Yes you can!

Why not make it 20 pages with this one?

Just now, Lemmiwinks86 said:

Why not make it 20 pages with this one?

That was exactly what I thought until I see this one go seriously...again.

1 hour ago, Lemmiwinks86 said:

Ok, but following your line of thought then where in the upgrade card says that when you place the squadron you set the activation slider to the correct color?
Because if you only place the squadron and it doesn't activate because of RLB, then you would only be able to activate it later that turn if it's an odd turn, because if it's an even turn you'll only be able to activate squadrons with the activation slider set in red, and the squadrons set will have it on blue as you never toggled them before. Do you think that would be how it works? It's obvious in this case that they didn't have enough space in the card to explain everything needed to fully understand how it works.

Also, the "It cannot move this activation" can refer to the squadron activation as you (the ship) activate it when you resolve a squadron command. I know it could be interpreted the other way too, but I really don't know how else could be writen to be clear that it refers to the squadron (in case that's how it works, of course)

I totally think that the squadron is activated when you place it and cannot move but can attack. But I know other people think differently and until a FAQ is released we'll never know for sure which interpretation is correct

The FAQ says that you should place the squadron with the current slider. This is done for every other "set aside" squadron (fighter ambush, hyperspace assault, CC Megabattle), as such, there is precedence here.

"It cannot move this activation" cannot refer to a squadron activation, as you are choosing to do something else (RLB) instead. it HAS to refer to the ship activation, since you can split your squadron activations between RLB and regular "activate a squad within close-medium".

Nowhere on the RLB card does it say you get to activate something: you are forfeiting your squad activation to use this upgrade card instead.

2 hours ago, thecolourred said:

The FAQ says that you should place the squadron with the current slider. This is done for every other "set aside" squadron (fighter ambush, hyperspace assault, CC Megabattle), as such, there is precedence here.

"It cannot move this activation" cannot refer to a squadron activation, as you are choosing to do something else (RLB) instead. it HAS to refer to the ship activation, since you can split your squadron activations between RLB and regular "activate a squad within close-medium".

Nowhere on the RLB card does it say you get to activate something: you are forfeiting your squad activation to use this upgrade card instead.

It does not refer to the ship, the entire text box is about squadrons and how RLB allows you to launch them with an squadron command/dial, it clearly says place 1 squadron within distance 1. it cannot move this activation.

I cannot rationally explain why you or anyone else think that line of text is referring to the SHIP, a 6pt upgrade that allows you to not move your ship for a turn? or 2 turns? or 3 turns? as you fire 1 squadron a round out, and yet it mentions NOTHING about changing speed, so not only can you not move your ship for several rounds, you can still spend Def tokens, as you are not moving at speed ZERO. A

Sounds pretty **** fantastical to me.

In fact I could take an ISD and put Expanded hangers on it, and sit at PBR of 3 fire lane tokens for 5 rounds ! sign me up.

31 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

It does not refer to the ship, the entire text box is about squadrons and how RLB allows you to launch them with an squadron command/dial, it clearly says place 1 squadron within distance 1. it cannot move this activation.

I cannot rationally explain why you or anyone else think that line of text is referring to the SHIP, a 6pt upgrade that allows you to not move your ship for a turn? or 2 turns? or 3 turns? as you fire 1 squadron a round out, and yet it mentions NOTHING about changing speed, so not only can you not move your ship for several rounds, you can still spend Def tokens, as you are not moving at speed ZERO. A

Sounds pretty **** fantastical to me.

Because it is. Fantastical, as you're not following what is actually being said there. Which is:

The Squadron cannot move this ship activation. Which stops you from moving it with, y'know, things like Fighter Coordination Team .