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You clearly do not understand Fly Casual.

That is a safe assumption.

The moment Fly Casual becomes a shame stick to beat people with is the moment it ceases to be Fly Casual.

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Where I thought we were going to go 'pew pew' and move some ships around the table and have fun, one of three of us had other ideas and wanted to WAAC. It was not one Tie D, it was 3. And it was a big time NPE for me and the other player (this was a 3 player scenario, with each faction represented). He is probably a lot better than me, newer but has a knack for the game. Yet if faced with a similar situation, I'm totally comfortable telling him, or any opponent, that 'hey it's neat you have a totally mega awesome list, I'm not going to stand a chance against it, and would rather not waste everyone's precious game time flying against it. So you win, now lets fly different lists.'

Beating you does not mean he's a WAAC fun-vampire who desperately needs to win a plastic spaceship game to validate his existence. The attitude problem is entirely yours: you lost so your opponent is at fault.

TIE/D with Ruthlessness is not a particularly powerful combo.

You didn't lose because your opponent was determined to win by ruining your day. You lost because you saw a great big "stay out of Range 1 of your own ships" sign and proceeded to ignore it. Any list in the game can avoid being hit by Ruthlessness triggers: just separate your ships. Ruthlessness is pretty much unseen in competitive formats for this very reason.

If this was a recurring thing and if your opponent kept bringing something like eight TLT Y-wings then maybe I'd have sympathy. But it's not. You lost once, that loss was entirely down to your repeated failure to avoid an easily avoided trigger and rather than consider why you lost your immediate reaction is to ask an internet forum to justify banning what beat you.

There's only one person that has an attitude problem with losing here and it's not your opponent.

Eh I guess you had to be there.

2 hours ago, You Look Like A Nail said:

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2. More bad assumptions. I don't expect people to just show up and play with me, I play with my friends, all of whom are okay with accepting proxies. If I was playing with a stranger, which realistically wouldn't happen but let's pretend, I'd ask if they care about proxies, I wouldn't make assumptions (see my next point).

Also, not having money is not a motivating factor here, at least not for me. I could absolutely afford to buy as many cards or ships as I needed, but why would I, for no reason other than saying I did so? If I have the ships and I have the bases then I have all the functional components I require. There's a functional reason to have the right base and ship, but the argument for also having the stat information in specific card format, and official cards at that, is much more tenuous.

...

You do realize that the LEAST essential thing to playing the game is actually the ship model? Take of the model and smash it to bit and you lose nothing that is actually relevant to gameplay even if it loses some of the visual appeal. Take away anything else and you can no longer play.

44 minutes ago, Blue Five said:

You lost once, that loss was entirely down to your repeated failure to avoid an easily avoided trigger and rather than consider why you lost your immediate reaction is to ask an internet forum to justify banning what beat you.

Check out the scenario "Honor among Thieves." You'll see how tight the Rebel deployment zone is, and how close the imperial deployment zone is. On the first turn, he was already ruthlessnessing.

Anyhow I didn't start this thread to justify banning things, I started it to ask what the community thought about limiting upgrades that were proxies.

My real mistake was posting the question in the first place. But SOME of the comments here have been insightful and have helped me in my thinking. Other comments have been borderline abusive and otherwise lame.

I see reasonable possibility for 3 states of play. Proxy all but ship models, proxy everything, proxy nothing.

proxy nothing should really just apply to major tournaments IMO. X-wing isn't about income Hiarchy. No proxy at tournaments is in a way ensuring FFG is getting fleeced for making it's product, even then good communities will help someone out who forgot there cards like what happened at Endor recently.

Proxy all but ship models could be for local store play/tournaments. up to store on proxying or not, they should just be clear and consistent. Smart stores won't alienate customers by being stricter than their clientel can afford or want.

Proxy anything, This is for any people playing each other that agree to it.

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Check out the scenario "Honor among Thieves." You'll see how tight the Rebel deployment zone is, and how close the imperial deployment zone is. On the first turn, he was already ruthlessnessing.

If you truly can't avoid a Range 1 AoE effect then that's the fault of the scenario design. Assault Missiles have existed since Wave 2.

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Anyhow I didn't start this thread to justify banning things, I started it to ask what the community thought about limiting upgrades that were proxies.

To the end of billing your opponent another Decimator to use that list again.

1 hour ago, Marinealver said:

You clearly do not understand Fly Casual.

That is a safe assumption.

I clearly have no idea what you mean by 'Fly Casual', sure. That's apparent.

The limits of proxies should be answered with the question of "Why are you allowing proxies?"

If you aren't using proxies as part of tournament prep or to gauge whether a new expansion is one you'd like to purchase, other than the convenience of just printing up a list, what is the point of proxies in your games in the first place? Answer that and you'll have a better idea how to get out of it what you want to get out of it.

Fundamentally, allowing proxies is allowing "anything goes" squad-building.

17 minutes ago, StevenO said:

You do realize that the LEAST essential thing to playing the game is actually the ship model? Take of the model and smash it to bit and you lose nothing that is actually relevant to gameplay even if it loses some of the visual appeal. Take away anything else and you can no longer play.

To quote me:

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If I have the ships and I have the bases then I have all the functional components I require.

You are quite correct that a hypothetical average X-Wing player can play without the ships, and may even be happy to do so. I need to have the ships there, though. I'm not going to enjoy the game if the ship models aren't there, and if I'm not enjoying it then I'm not going to play.

This touches on the same root logic about proxying I keep going on about. Having real cards doesn't add anything to my play experience. If you're a tournament player, then you can't have a play experience without having those cards, so they're pretty important. If you're a casual player, maybe they add something, in which case you'd want them, but I have a hard time seeing why.

12 minutes ago, Blue Five said:

To the end of billing your opponent another Decimator to use that list again.

I'm sorry do we have an Attani Mindlink? I thought not, so if you please do not presume to know my motivations.

I think I've learned as much as I'll ever need to from you so I'll bid you to have a nice life.

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FFG requiring cards would have meant my opponent would have had to purchase 3 Decimator expansions.

This is why most players prefer 100 point competitive standard. It has been set in an official manner and is not open to interpretation. THERE IS NO ARGUMENT IN WHAT IS ALLOWED AND IS NOT ALLOWED. So for proxies just saying "it's okay, it's only casual" simply won't fly. That is literally asking someone to let you break the rules because it is easier for you. If it is for Tournament practice then maybe you should practice what you are playing and get the expansions. If you can't afford it (and somehow still affording mandatory expenses) I hate to say it but it is likely you have other problems that should require your attention more than X-wing. If you take a printout and want to leave your cards in binder in trunk at home but you actually have them then sure fine whatever, you are still playing with what you have instead of what you don't have or want to buy but still want to play.

Anyways, fly casual, and we should nerf Proximity mines so we can end this proxy debate once and for all.

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If you take a printout and want to leave your cards in binder in trunk at home but you actually have them then sure fine whatever, you are still playing with what you have instead of what you don't have or want to buy but still want to play.

If you're okay with a printout why does it matter if they have cards in a binder somewhere?

The old Magic LCG School vs Wargaming School. Cards are one of the backbones of the game or simple "tokens" to show your upgrades.

This is a never ending "struggle", I agree. After 30, 50, 100 posts we allways end the same way. Two different ways to enjoy the game. Simply play and have fun.

1 hour ago, Marinealver said:

This is why most players prefer 100 point competitive standard.

Source? (Also ... so?)

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THERE IS NO ARGUMENT IN WHAT IS ALLOWED AND IS NOT ALLOWED.

There's no arguments in my games either, we're okay with proxies so there's nothing to argue about.

OTOH, unless you're playing 100/6 tournament rules, there's always going to need to be a discussion about what you want to play and how you want to do it. Since I don't really want to play 100/6 tournament rules, the discussion is unavoidable, so I might as well point out that strictly requiring official cards doesn't add anything to my game experience and I'm not going to bother.

But now we're just arguing in circles. To go back to my original point, everybody should just do what they like, as long as they're having fun, but you should probably reconcile yourself to the idea that some people aren't going to do it the same way you do.

You've encouraged me to proxy stuff, BV, and I've always waved off the idea. I'll continue to do so. If I was a super competitive player and wanted to test out my latest meta-killing list, sure, I'd proxy for testing and practice. But for your run of the mill game against friends?...I say just roll with what you have. The only caution there is if one friend is buying tons of stuff and outpaces the competition, then it can get challenging.

3 minutes ago, gennataos said:

You've encouraged me to proxy stuff, BV, and I've always waved off the idea. I'll continue to do so. If I was a super competitive player and wanted to test out my latest meta-killing list, sure, I'd proxy for testing and practice. But for your run of the mill game against friends?...I say just roll with what you have. The only caution there is if one friend is buying tons of stuff and outpaces the competition, then it can get challenging.

What about, just as one example, TIE Advanced? If someone has one, doesn't play Epic, and doesn't have a Raider, do you force them to buy one just to get the fix for the ship they already bought?

Just now, You Look Like A Nail said:

What about, just as one example, TIE Advanced? If someone has one, doesn't play Epic, and doesn't have a Raider, do you force them to buy one just to get the fix for the ship they already bought?

Haha...force someone to buy something? No, we just play with what we have. Man, who are you playing with that forces you to buy stuff?

Just now, gennataos said:

Haha...force someone to buy something? No, we just play with what we have. Man, who are you playing with that forces you to buy stuff?

So you'd let them proxy the TIE Advanced fix?

3 minutes ago, You Look Like A Nail said:

So you'd let them proxy the TIE Advanced fix?

I think I've typed it a few times. We play with what we have. So if they don't have the card, they won't play it. That's how we play...you're welcome to play however you choose. Are you trying to bait me into a silly internet argument or something?

Folks, this topic is ciclic. Perhaps twice a year (at least) the same discussion. More and more rugged and finally closed with no winner.

Play as you want. I would never, never pay 100 bucks for one Magic card. And there are quite a bunch of people out there who thinks playing War in the Pacific is insane. Choices to have fun and nothing else.

Just now, gennataos said:

I think I've typed it a few times. We play with what we have. So if they don't have the card, they won't play it. That's how we play...you're welcome to play however you choose. Are you trying to bait me into a silly internet argument or something?

No, just curious to know if you'd still hold that position when it's not about getting an advantage (re: your comment "if I were a super competitive player ..."). A fix, which they pretty clearly would have put in the original ship if they'd known how it would ultimately pan out, is a pretty good yardstick for discussing proxies in a value neutral way.

Not really interested in silly internet arguments and I'm happy to let everybody play however they like, if that wasn't clear before. Like I keep saying, if you're having fun, then you're doing it right.

9 minutes ago, You Look Like A Nail said:

No, just curious to know if you'd still hold that position when it's not about getting an advantage (re: your comment "if I were a super competitive player ..."). A fix, which they pretty clearly would have put in the original ship if they'd known how it would ultimately pan out, is a pretty good yardstick for discussing proxies in a value neutral way.

Not really interested in silly internet arguments and I'm happy to let everybody play however they like, if that wasn't clear before. Like I keep saying, if you're having fun, then you're doing it right.

I've never considered a friendly game about getting an advantage. Now, if I had a friend who wanted to test some competitive list against me, sure, I'd let them proxy if they want.

I don't know...it's like playing baseball with someone else's glove...it doesn't feel right to me.

1 hour ago, You Look Like A Nail said:

Source? (Also ... so?)

There's no arguments in my games either, we're okay with proxies so there's nothing to argue about.

OTOH, unless you're playing 100/6 tournament rules, there's always going to need to be a discussion about what you want to play and how you want to do it. Since I don't really want to play 100/6 tournament rules, the discussion is unavoidable, so I might as well point out that strictly requiring official cards doesn't add anything to my game experience and I'm not going to bother.

But now we're just arguing in circles. To go back to my original point, everybody should just do what they like, as long as they're having fun, but you should probably reconcile yourself to the idea that some people aren't going to do it the same way you do.

lol I wasn't replying to you (I would have used the quote) but after the massive amounts of Pen & Ink changes for balance purposes in the new FAQ, I can see another reasoning for proxying cards as in getting the cards that have the changes vice just keeping a 20+ page FAQ with your collection.

Still again the opposition I am in is what is the reasoning behind proxying cards. Proxying cards to get a correct version even if future releases come with updates (i.e.Tactician and Heavy Scyk Interceptor) sure fine, that should also be on the printout. However as for proxying cards that you simply do not have. Still opposed, and again the casual excuse still does not apply IMHO.

Just now, Marinealver said:

lol I wasn't replying to you (I would have used to quote) but after the massive amounts of Pen & Ink changes for balance purposes I can see another reasoning for proxying cards as in getting the cards that have the changes vice just keeping a 20+ page FAQ with your collection.

Still again the opposition I am in is what is the reasoning behind proxying cards. Proxying cards to get a correct version even if future releases come with updates (i.e.Tactician and Heavy Scyk Interceptor) sure fine, that should also be on the printout. However as for proxying cards that you simply do not have. Still opposed, and again the casual excuse still does not apply IMHO.

Card changes via errata are actually one of the reasons I started using a printout instead of the cards ... too likely to forget about the new Heavy Scyk changes or what have you. Using the printout made me care less about proxying cards because I wasn't using the cards anyway.