I see no problem to proxy cards during a casual game.

Casual game permit to test cards before a purchase and avoid disappointment.

1 hour ago, BlodVargarna said:

Not asking strangers to fix my friend's attitude, I'm asking what you guys think about putting limits on proxying.

It's a solution for some other problem than the one you have. Your problem isn't proxying, it's people making degenerate lists. Ban proxies and they can still do that. Given that I can pick up copies of Ruthlessness on Ebay for a couple of bucks, it's not even going to slow them down much.

1 hour ago, BlodVargarna said:

Not asking strangers to fix my friend's attitude, I'm asking what you guys think about putting limits on proxying.

Not a method to fix game balance. You're not removing a list you feel is unbalanced from the game, you're just making your friend buy another Decimator to play it.

Your problem is keeping your ships in tight formation against a list packing six Ruthlessness triggers. Might not be what you want to here but this is what someone less charitable would call in L2P issue.

The problem is not sticking to the 100 pt death match. How dare you try to change things and have fun! All must bow down to 100/6!

2 hours ago, spacelion said:

It's not hard, everyone has 2 Adaptability and 2 Autothrusters, not everyone uses them. When I fielded Crack Swarm I borrowed 3 of the Cracks, when I play Parattani I borrow a Mindlink. The beauty of the "Fly Casual" environment makes it that it's quite rare for people to be douches and deny lending a card that they are obviously not using.

The cards that are hard to borrow are obviously Palpatine (most people who own it use it 99%) and Extra Munitions, and maybe VI.

Oh, I agree. I fully expect Chihuahua players either borrowed and/or bought what they needed from the secondary market. But that only strengthens my point that the cost of packs doesn't actually factor in limiting how much of a card is fielded.

2 hours ago, BlodVargarna said:

I'm asking what you guys think about putting limits on proxying.

That is totally up to you and the people you play with. if everyone in your play group is okay with it, then problem solved.

17 hours ago, BlodVargarna said:

introduce some limits to these lists where players can spam crazy upgrades they would not ordinarily be able to.

What do you guys think?

It is utterly stupid. If playing casual, don't bother with cards, just print and play the lists you want. Or you're just limiting players possibilities based on how much IRL money they got.
Your problem is not a card problem; what pissed you off is you wanted some casual play, maybe with a "fun" list and your opponent came to you with some highly efficient list that let you nearly no chance to win.
What you must do now, is talk with your opponent and confront your expectations when playing X-wing. If you don't come to an agreement on how you want to play the game, find someone else to play with.

I used a standard tie as sabines tie and a hwk as a k wing the other day lol. All bought now though

Goody, I have a ton of old Micro Machines, maybe I can use those as proxies! Oh wait, they never made the GUNBOAT. Never mind.

4 hours ago, You Look Like A Nail said:

In a casual game you don't need to netlist super competitive builds, no, of course not. Is that the only reason you can imagine someone wanting to proxy? Maybe he has 4 ships but only enough cards to do the same load-out for 3 of them, but wants them all to be the same. Maybe he has a TIE Advanced and can't afford an Epic ship he won't otherwise use just to get a fix for it. Maybe he just as a funny idea for a theme that he's only going to use once.

Why wouldn't they get the same treatment? Why shouldn't it be about who is the better player, regardless of budget? Why should I care how much money someone spent before they show up to play the game? They're not giving that money to me. They could have 4 copies of Autothrusters or they could have a printout that lists Autothrusters 4 times, and it's exactly the same thing to me, from a play experience perspective. My game experience is not impacted in any fashion, except my opponent has more flexibility to do what he likes, and probably is therefore going to have more fun.

In competitive play, proxies are against the rules. FFG gets to set and enforce the rules, and those are the rules they're going with, and that's fine by me. If you're prepping for competitive play with tournament-oriented players then maybe they'd object, I don't know, I don't play in tournaments so I don't have a good feel for what people might object to.

But if you're not in a tournament, there really is no reason not to allow proxies, unless it's introducing some confusion into the game state. Which, at least for me, is the opposite of what a fleet builder printout will do.

1. The games not free. It is not pay to win but it is not free as well. There are tools for those with tight budgets. (Han Shopped First). As for casual if you are insisting on flying a 4 ship list (such as a 4 TLT list) then you are not exactly looking for a friendly game where it doesn't matter if you win or lose. Therefore you are not flying casual.
2. Okay so why should anyone feel obligated to play with you? If you are insisting that they accept your proxies as actual cards then you are the one being unfair. You can say you are poor or don't have as much money. I'm looking at Armada but I don't have the finances to start that game. Should I demand that they accept a cardboard cutout of the tile bases and have them treat it as the actual model? I have ran into a person that insisted on playing 40K without the models (only the base). Lets just say whenever he wanted to play a game we dumped a penny jar on his "army" and called it good.
3. You don't play in tournaments. Okay, but again why should others play by your standard. Now I have had a chance to play "house rules" or other formats and proxy some home brew cards for ships that are not in the range (I.E. Assault Gunboat). But I have tried more than I had the opportunity because people don't want to pay with house rules as it was rules made up by the other player. With Standard it is not rules made by one player or another (which could have balance issues) but it is made by a fairly neutral party who doesn't have a bias on who wins or what ship does the best.
4. As I said before. Proxies are not going away. You can take a printout and no one is going to check if you have 4 autothrusters or have 2 proof of purchases of Star vipers. Heck for friendly tournaments I have seen many players borrow the cards that they need so again no one is forcing a player to spend money they possibly might not have. As I said before there are other ways to try things out for one time only. Vassal is the perfect example as many players use it to test out upcoming ships and upgrades before the wave is released in stores. I personally don't have a problem with other people proxying cards but I prefer to play with the cards. To a point where I don't proxy cards I don't have much in the same way you don't play tournaments.

Either way no one forces you on what fashion you play X-wing, just as long as you don't insists that they accept your way of playing X-wing.

54 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Either way no one forces you on what fashion you play X-wing, just as long as you don't insists that they accept your way of playing X-wing.

This is of course also valid if your way of playing x-wing is 'no proxies in casual games'.

2 hours ago, GrimmyV said:

Goody, I have a ton of old Micro Machines, maybe I can use those as proxies! Oh wait, they never made the GUNBOAT. Never mind.

If proxies are allowed then I don't see why not.

If you're going to make someone buy a certain ship just to fly it then there is no reason they shouldn't need to buy the cards that upgrade the ship as well. If I want to play the KKK why should I have to beg/borrow/buy those three ships when I could just proxy them with a few bases and some cutouts?

If you want to complain about me not using the FFG ship models then you have NO RIGHT to say I should let you use your proxied upgrades!

As always the same reduction to absurd. Play as you want. With the tools you want...or you can afford. And of course with the people you want.

If one person says that he only plays with (or against...) players with 100% original material he is OK. But no moral superiority about this. The "I play with original components and you are a cheater because you play with your friends with printed upgrade cards" damaged the community in my area. You own five ships plus half a dozen cards... And like a zealot preacher you say that other players are cheaters... because they play with original models, dials, rules etc... But without original upgrade cards. Simply idiotic. But damaging to the game.

Simply two different group of players. Two different ways to enjoy the game.

2 minutes ago, Hexdot said:

As always the same reduction to absurd. ...

What's absurd, saying that you can use proxies or saying you can't?

This discussion was not about whether proxies are acceptable or not, but rather if there should be limits on 'spamming' broken combos.

I guess I've answered my own question in that I'm going to try to be more clear with my opponent about the way I like to play x wing, and if he's more concerned about WAC then, he can play with another X-winger and/or fly his ships in a tournament with others of his kind.

The same argument against the printout upgrade cards. Why not proxy ships if you can proxy cards... Play only with bases, etc.

Reduction to absurd. You choose the people you play with and the way you play. If one person wants to play Triple Ds "by the book" and nobody signs up because there are other games in progress with fixed X Wings, facedown ordnance cards and proxied items no "Cheaters" moaning please. Look for serious and competitive players and enjoy the game.

12 months ago I played quite often in my LGS. Now 3-4 games every month with casual players. And enjoy Epic with my pals at home

26 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

This discussion was not about whether proxies are acceptable or not, but rather if there should be limits on 'spamming' broken combos.

I guess I've answered my own question in that I'm going to try to be more clear with my opponent about the way I like to play x wing, and if he's more concerned about WAC then, he can play with another X-winger and/or fly his ships in a tournament with others of his kind.

"His kind"? Sticking Ruthlessness on a TIE/D isn't equivalent making a pact with Satan. TIE/D makes it a bit more useful but it's not gamebreaking. You know he's got three ships that can trigger Ruthlessness so why are you keeping your ships in Range 1 of each other?

Have you not considered that he might be better that X-Wing than you are? Human nature I guess. In multiplayer games people blame their teammates. In games with only two players people blame the balance. People never blame themselves.

I think calling him WAAC is a bit rich considering you're the one planning to cut him off because you lost once.

24 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

This discussion was not about whether proxies are acceptable or not, but rather if there should be limits on 'spamming' broken combos.

I guess I've answered my own question in that I'm going to try to be more clear with my opponent about the way I like to play x wing, and if he's more concerned about WAC then, he can play with another X-winger and/or fly his ships in a tournament with others of his kind.

That starts getting into opinions of what is broken and what isn't (a devisive subject around here). You think three TIE/D's with Ruthlessness is broken, but your opponent might think it's fine. Either can try to force their view on the other, but it is unlikely to work.

While I find the way you describe your solution troubling, it is perhaps the best solution. If you can find people who agree with your views, you will have an easier time coming to a consensus of what y'all don't want to play with. And, your old opponent can also find people who are okay with him flying like he wants to fly. Sounds like a win/wing scenario to me.

7 hours ago, BlodVargarna said:

Not asking strangers to fix my friend's attitude, I'm asking what you guys think about putting limits on proxying.

In that case my personal opinion is in non-tournament play proxies should definitely be allowed. I don't know why people even bother pulling cards out of the binder anymore. Printing the list is easier and quicker. If however you and your friend would have more fun limiting proxies then nothing wrong with that either.

9 minutes ago, Blue Five said:

"His kind"? Sticking Ruthlessness on a TIE/D isn't equivalent making a pact with Satan. TIE/D makes it a bit more useful but it's not gamebreaking. You know he's got three ships that can trigger Ruthlessness so why are you keeping your ships in Range 1 of each other?

Have you not considered that he might be better that X-Wing than you are? Human nature I guess. In multiplayer games people blame their teammates. In games with only two players people blame the balance. People never blame themselves.

I think calling him WAAC is a bit rich considering you're the one planning to cut him off because you lost once.

The game is a social compact is it not? In a two player game, if one player isn't having fun, then there's trouble afoot.

Where I thought we were going to go 'pew pew' and move some ships around the table and have fun, one of three of us had other ideas and wanted to WAAC. It was not one Tie D, it was 3. And it was a big time NPE for me and the other player (this was a 3 player scenario, with each faction represented). He is probably a lot better than me, newer but has a knack for the game. Yet if faced with a similar situation, I'm totally comfortable telling him, or any opponent, that 'hey it's neat you have a totally mega awesome list, I'm not going to stand a chance against it, and would rather not waste everyone's precious game time flying against it. So you win, now lets fly different lists.'

The game by its nature has to be competitive in some way, and at 200 pts there are going to be combos that are far too powerful for the regular 100/6 format. He made one because that's fun for him, and if you're completely opposed to running a similarly overpowered list (I doubt 3 ruthless Defenders could beat a 200pt bomber list filling every square inch of the map with conner nets, it would certainly hamper his fun like the ruthless Defenders did yours), then probably the 200 pt format is not for you. Nothing wrong with that, it just isn't the style of play that you enjoy and you should accept that fact rather than limit proxying.

I think you are right. I could have run a bunch of K bombers, but I'm a dummy who likes to fly X wings, A wings, and Y wings.

19 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

I think you are right. I could have run a bunch of K bombers, but I'm a dummy who likes to fly X wings, A wings, and Y wings.

Nothing wrong with liking what you like, just like that guy isn't wrong for wanting to make a crazy list at 200 pts because that's the play style that he enjoys. You should probably just play a different format and everyone proxies whatever they want.

Have you considered HotAC?

21 hours ago, Marinealver said:

1. The games not free. It is not pay to win but it is not free as well. There are tools for those with tight budgets. (Han Shopped First). As for casual if you are insisting on flying a 4 ship list (such as a 4 TLT list) then you are not exactly looking for a friendly game where it doesn't matter if you win or lose. Therefore you are not flying casual.
2. Okay so why should anyone feel obligated to play with you? If you are insisting that they accept your proxies as actual cards then you are the one being unfair. You can say you are poor or don't have as much money. I'm looking at Armada but I don't have the finances to start that game. Should I demand that they accept a cardboard cutout of the tile bases and have them treat it as the actual model? I have ran into a person that insisted on playing 40K without the models (only the base). Lets just say whenever he wanted to play a game we dumped a penny jar on his "army" and called it good.
3. You don't play in tournaments. Okay, but again why should others play by your standard. Now I have had a chance to play "house rules" or other formats and proxy some home brew cards for ships that are not in the range (I.E. Assault Gunboat). But I have tried more than I had the opportunity because people don't want to pay with house rules as it was rules made up by the other player. With Standard it is not rules made by one player or another (which could have balance issues) but it is made by a fairly neutral party who doesn't have a bias on who wins or what ship does the best.
4. As I said before. Proxies are not going away. You can take a printout and no one is going to check if you have 4 autothrusters or have 2 proof of purchases of Star vipers. Heck for friendly tournaments I have seen many players borrow the cards that they need so again no one is forcing a player to spend money they possibly might not have. As I said before there are other ways to try things out for one time only. Vassal is the perfect example as many players use it to test out upcoming ships and upgrades before the wave is released in stores. I personally don't have a problem with other people proxying cards but I prefer to play with the cards. To a point where I don't proxy cards I don't have much in the same way you don't play tournaments.

Either way no one forces you on what fashion you play X-wing, just as long as you don't insists that they accept your way of playing X-wing.

1. If your assumption is that playing casual means you don't care if you win, then you don't understand casual play. You also have another incorrect assumption: there are plenty of multiple ship lists which aren't degenerate. Also, I usually play more than 4 ships, because I play 150 points, which means that having multiple similar ships is pretty common. There are lots of good reasons to want to play multiples of a given card.

2. More bad assumptions. I don't expect people to just show up and play with me, I play with my friends, all of whom are okay with accepting proxies. If I was playing with a stranger, which realistically wouldn't happen but let's pretend, I'd ask if they care about proxies, I wouldn't make assumptions (see my next point).

Also, not having money is not a motivating factor here, at least not for me. I could absolutely afford to buy as many cards or ships as I needed, but why would I, for no reason other than saying I did so? If I have the ships and I have the bases then I have all the functional components I require. There's a functional reason to have the right base and ship, but the argument for also having the stat information in specific card format, and official cards at that, is much more tenuous.

3. Nobody has to play by my standards, you can do whatever you want. If you're playing with strangers and you want to stick with 100/6 tournament play, then that's entirely up to you. I would consider that boring as heck but if you're having fun, then you're doing it right. I think part of your problem is that you're assuming I'm telling people that everybody needs to be okay with proxies, but that's not how casual works. Part of playing a casual game is always going to be a requirement to figure out what your opponent is looking for. Do you want to play scenarios? Epic? Other point levels? 100/6 but no killer meta lists? 100/6 but only ships that appear in the original trilogy movies? You have to figure that stuff out first, and proxies will be part of the conversation, but I think that in casual play, not being a stickler for someone having every single card is a reasonable default position. To the point that I'd be a little surprised if I sat down for a casual game and found that someone was insisting that I produce my cards.

4. Sure. If we sat down for a game and you told me that proxying was a problem for you, I'd live with it. I don't really get it, but I'd live with it. I'd certainly never tell you that you were doing it wrong. But the point is, there's a conversation that needs to be had before you get started, and for casual, I think "proxies are fine" is a completely reasonable place to start. Tournament play doesn't have that conversation, which is why they have rules around things like proxies: you aren't discussing what to do, you're all going into it with a common framework you've all agreed to abide by, imposed by FFG. That doesn't exist for casual play so you have to do it yourself, formally or informally.

1 hour ago, You Look Like A Nail said:

1. If your assumption is that playing casual means you don't care if you win, then you don't understand casual play. You also have another incorrect assumption: there are plenty of multiple ship lists which aren't degenerate. Also, I usually play more than 4 ships, because I play 150 points, which means that having multiple similar ships is pretty common. There are lots of good reasons to want to play multiples of a given card.

2. More bad assumptions. I don't expect people to just show up and play with me, I play with my friends, all of whom are okay with accepting proxies. If I was playing with a stranger, which realistically wouldn't happen but let's pretend, I'd ask if they care about proxies, I wouldn't make assumptions (see my next point).

Also, not having money is not a motivating factor here, at least not for me. I could absolutely afford to buy as many cards or ships as I needed, but why would I, for no reason other than saying I did so? If I have the ships and I have the bases then I have all the functional components I require. There's a functional reason to have the right base and ship, but the argument for also having the stat information in specific card format, and official cards at that, is much more tenuous.

3. Nobody has to play by my standards, you can do whatever you want. If you're playing with strangers and you want to stick with 100/6 tournament play, then that's entirely up to you. I would consider that boring as heck but if you're having fun, then you're doing it right. I think part of your problem is that you're assuming I'm telling people that everybody needs to be okay with proxies, but that's not how casual works. Part of playing a casual game is always going to be a requirement to figure out what your opponent is looking for. Do you want to play scenarios? Epic? Other point levels? 100/6 but no killer meta lists? 100/6 but only ships that appear in the original trilogy movies? You have to figure that stuff out first, and proxies will be part of the conversation, but I think that in casual play, not being a stickler for someone having every single card is a reasonable default position. To the point that I'd be a little surprised if I sat down for a casual game and found that someone was insisting that I produce my cards.

4. Sure. If we sat down for a game and you told me that proxying was a problem for you, I'd live with it. I don't really get it, but I'd live with it. I'd certainly never tell you that you were doing it wrong. But the point is, there's a conversation that needs to be had before you get started, and for casual, I think "proxies are fine" is a completely reasonable place to start. Tournament play doesn't have that conversation, which is why they have rules around things like proxies: you aren't discussing what to do, you're all going into it with a common framework you've all agreed to abide by, imposed by FFG. That doesn't exist for casual play so you have to do it yourself, formally or informally.

You clearly do not understand Fly Casual.

That is a safe assumption.