Up until very recently, I've been of the mind that if you are playing against friends in a living room, there's no reason you can't proxy whatever you wish. That was until I was on the receiving end of 3 /D Defenders each with Ruthlessness EPT. It was brutal.

FFG requiring cards would have meant my opponent would have had to purchase 3 Decimator expansions. Not a light feat. Nobody would reasonably do such a thing, so requiring cards limits some broken combos.

Im thinking how to introduce some limits to these lists where players can spam crazy upgrades they would not ordinarily be able to.

What do you guys think?

The decimated has two copies of ruthlessness, actually.

The real reason that squad was so successful is that it's illegal, though. That was a 114 point squad at minimum. Unless you increased the point limits, but then you should have had more resources to deal with that list.

I think if your playing in a living room with friends, proxy anything you want. And I really doubt that FFG uses any type of "this combo would cost to much to field and therefore will never happen and because of that, is balanced" logic. At least I seriously hope not, because you will always be able to get cards of eBay. I think you just got beat by a good list and are a bit salty about it and now want to cry foul that your opponent (obviously your friend) didn't actually have the cards and was using a proxy. If your friend had bought 3 Decimators and really had those cards, you would still be salty about losing, but wouldn't have a convenient excuse/out. Just play with your friends and allow everyone to have the most fun whether that means proxy's or not. Now in a tournament, that's a different thing all together.(unless you happen to play me every game of the tournament because I still wouldn't care)

Edit: after reading the other responses, they are right, your friend was using an illegal list and I am NOT OK with that!

Like @Squark I'm not sure how your opponent was able to build that list if you were playing a standard 100/6. All the EPT Defenders are named and so 37+ points each including Ruthlessness.

I would just let your adversary know that sort of list wasn't fun and perhaps next time no proxying for a change/challenge - sometimes building with only what you have makes some fun list building and play.

I personally let folks proxy in casual and friendly games at my LGS. It gives them an avenue to try out things if they are of limited income/collection.

As others, stated I don't think you can legally field 3 Tie Defenders with Ruthless at 100PT. The cheapest one with an EPT is Ryad/Glaive Pilot which would come at 35PT each with Ruthlessness and TIE/x7 title.

I often seen proxies in one of two scenarios.

• proxying a card that has been spoiled but not yet released (think of vassal builds before a new wave/expansion is released).
• proxying a duplicate card that they currently don't have enough off. Such as a 3rd mindlink or a 2nd comm relay.

Other than the following two scenarios I don't see very much proxying. If someone needs a card they don't have on them I know many players simply let them borrow a card.

21 minutes ago, hey_yu said:

I personally let folks proxy in casual and friendly games at my LGS. It gives them an avenue to try out things if they are of limited income/collection.

As others, stated I don't think you can legally field 3 Tie Defenders with Ruthless at 100PT. The cheapest one with an EPT is Ryad/Glaive Pilot which would come at 35PT each with Ruthlessness and TIE/x7 title.

Per the OP, these were Tie /D, which means at least 9 more points (Assuming they took the secondary weapons they needed to use the title).

4 hours ago, BlodVargarna said:

Im thinking how to introduce some limits to these lists where players can spam crazy upgrades they would not ordinarily be able to.

You could set a 2-of-a-kind limit on everything that isn't unique. This is my self-imposed squad-building rule as a way to take a break from spam dependency. It has resulted in squads that are not only more fun to play, but are more well-rounded and less likely to run into a hard counter.

I have NEVER played with the cards in the game. I go online, build my squad, and print it off. I have no idea which cards come from where, or that I needed x10 StarViper for AT. Granted, you have to have the correct miniature*, but there have even been times when I would tell my brother "I couldn't find the base for X, so Y is actually X. (*Actually, I take that back--we have occasionally let T-65s stand in for T-70s and vice versa.)

It's never been a problem. Plus, I was flying x7's months before Imperial Veterans hit the shelves, because the "card" was already in the squad building program.

My opponent was flying 200 points. It was a scenario (DegobahDave's actually).

Yes Im salty, but it was not very fun to fly against. A single /d with ruthlessness is mean, 3 of them were killing ships left and right.

I play with a list-builder printout so I don't really care about proxying. I normally stick to cards I own but if I need 3 Lightweight Frames and I only actually own 2, whatever, close enough. I played with actual cards for a while, but TBH, it's just such a hassle. You're doubling (at least) your setup and teardown time and complicating your transport issues for no real benefit.

If you're playing casual games and you force your opponents to produce all their cards, all you're really doing is forcing them to spend money. Why should someone have an advantage because they have a bigger hobby budget? Tournament players can do things however they like but I see no compelling reason to do this in my games, so I don't worry about it.

This works when casual games are played against like-minded people. If you bring degenerate lists, your friends don't have fun, and you find yourself running out of opponents. If you aren't playing casual, aren't playing with friends, or your friends are jerks, then YMMV.

1 hour ago, BlodVargarna said:

My opponent was flying 200 points. It was a scenario (DegobahDave's actually).

Yes Im salty, but it was not very fun to fly against. A single /d with ruthlessness is mean, 3 of them were killing ships left and right.

Yeah it seems pretty mean, but at 200 pts I would say the solution isn't to limit proxying, but to find something even more broken to proxy in return. There's some crazy sh*t you can do at 200 pts.

If you allow proxies then be prepared to suffer for it as well as benefit from it.

My belief is that if it is really a "casual" game then you shouldn't use proxies at all so you can play with other things to learn how they work. The only time I really see that allowing proxies could be OK is when practicing/preparing for tournaments where you are playing against someone else who is doing the same and you are trying to determine if you need to acquire the actual cards to fly what you're using; proxying unreleased stuff would fall under this category as well.

Even if allowed at least one actual copy of the card should need to be used.

23 minutes ago, StevenO said:

My belief is that if it is really a "casual" game then you shouldn't use proxies at all so you can play with other things to learn how they work.

You lost me here. If it's casual then why not proxy whatever you like? The only reason not to use proxies, or to use cards at all, is because you are compelled to, which is only strictly true in tournament play, or because you prefer to. Outside of tournaments there isn't even a functional argument, a fleet-builder printout is functionally superior to a pile of cards in most respects. The miniatures need to be right, and the bases and templates need to be either official or compatible, but cards?

Most miniature games don't use cards, and the ones that do don't usually strictly require them, permitting alternatives such as apps or third party cards (he said knowingly). There's no inherent reason that X-Wing requires cards, it's just that FFG requires them in tournament play. Of all the formats, casual play is the one for which strictly requiring cards surely makes the least sense.

1 hour ago, You Look Like A Nail said:

You lost me here. If it's casual then why not proxy whatever you like? The only reason not to use proxies, or to use cards at all, is because you are compelled to, which is only strictly true in tournament play, or because you prefer to. Outside of tournaments there isn't even a functional argument, a fleet-builder printout is functionally superior to a pile of cards in most respects. The miniatures need to be right, and the bases and templates need to be either official or compatible, but cards?

Most miniature games don't use cards, and the ones that do don't usually strictly require them, permitting alternatives such as apps or third party cards (he said knowingly). There's no inherent reason that X-Wing requires cards, it's just that FFG requires them in tournament play. Of all the formats, casual play is the one for which strictly requiring cards surely makes the least sense.

Probably using the term Fly Casual into context. But yes in a causal game you do not need to netlist every super competitive builds and proxy cards just because you don't have them. I mean why does the person who has purchased 4 Y-wings and a K-wing get the same treatment as someone who has purchased 4 Y-wings and 2 K-wings? One player has clearly paid $20 more to make that list yet they have to concede because it is a casual game?

Now sure in many game setting I see more and more players who just bring the models tiles and a printout of the list so they don't have to worry about loosing a pilot or upgrade card. In those cases, who realistically is going to demand that another player shows 4 copies of TLTs to make sure that their printout matches what that player has, or demand to see 2 proof of purchases of K-wings? That would simply be ridiculous, and you would likely run out of people willing to play a "casual" game with you. Still if you are wanting to try a proxy and see if it is a good idea to buy a expansion kit or not. Proxy is one way but there is also other avenues such as vassal. And if you want tournament practice that might be the better place to go proxy a list before you get the physical copies. There is also tools to help you buy the net lists at the most efficient prices with Hans Shopped First.

Proxies are never going to go away. That would be like trying to ban house rules in other people's homes. Still it is understandable that proxies would not be welcomed in any competitive setting. As for competitive practice or experimentation that is the grey line that might extend beyond casual.

6 hours ago, BlodVargarna said:

Nobody would reasonably do such a thing, so requiring cards limits some broken combos.

Not necessarily. Look back at the Chihuahua squad that popped up. It consisted of 5 Green Sqaudron A-Wings, all with Crack Shot/Adaptability/Chardaan Refit/Autothrusters/A-Wing Test Pilot. To get all the pieces (just going by packs), you need at least three Rebel Aces packs, two A-Wing packs, three Starvipers, three Mist Hunters, and five Kihraxz fighters (just naming the cheapest option) to make that list. And considering it turned up, some people managed to get it together.

If you are worried about broken combos and such then the problem is not so much proxy of cards (I could run about anything at a tournament since I own about everything, borrow, or e-bay cards) but instead the point limit. 100 points seems like the sweet spot where you have to make tough choices of what to bring. When our local club runs 120 or 150 pt tournaments things can get a bit strange because of these new combos available at the raised point limit.

Buy models not cards. Unless playing Tournanent there is no need to buy ships you will never fly to obtain 2 cards. The only kind of player that will demand original cards in Casual game is the one that wants to crush you with his Meta squad. Avoid this NPE.

I own 340 ships and growing. To display the squad you want you simply needs money. Buy the ships you love. Enhance your fleet. When playing in my house there are half a dozen shoe boxes with perhaps 2000 colour prints of upgrade cards. The originals stored in acid free small boxes.

In past ages I played a couple of times against, not with, agressive young macho players that owned 5 ships and argued that I was damaging FFG and cheater. Laughts.

I only own 2 Starvipers. IMHO this weird looking ship should not be deployed on squadrons. Not themed. But there are 36 Tie Fighters on the shelves. So I own only 4 original ATs cards.

No offence, but this does sound like simple salt. The problem doesn't seem to be the proxying of a card, rather that it worked well against you. It's a strong upgrade, especially in numbers, but those three ships took up over half of your opponents list. Surely there was an answer in your list somewhere, or at least in a way of flying it. Unless you happened to take 200 points of a TIE swarm, it's hard to imagine not being able to deal with at least enough of that to stop the bleed and regroup.

In casual games, I don't see an issue with proxying cards. I don't do it often myself, but that's mainly because I have enough of everything that I don't need to. The cards are mainly there as a reminder, as much for yourself as for the other player.

11 hours ago, BlodVargarna said:

Up until very recently, I've been of the mind that if you are playing against friends in a living room, there's no reason you can't proxy whatever you wish. That was until I was on the receiving end of 3 /D Defenders each with Ruthlessness EPT. It was brutal.

FFG requiring cards would have meant my opponent would have had to purchase 3 Decimator expansions. Not a light feat. Nobody would reasonably do such a thing, so requiring cards limits some broken combos.

Im thinking how to introduce some limits to these lists where players can spam crazy upgrades they would not ordinarily be able to.

What do you guys think?

Here is what you do, talk to your friend and discuss some limits on your game, you know each other and you and your friends are playing a nice casual game.

here is what you don't do, come on the FFG forum and ask the community if FFG should fix your friends attitude.

simple

8 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Probably using the term Fly Casual into context. But yes in a causal game you do not need to netlist every super competitive builds and proxy cards just because you don't have them.

In a casual game you don't need to netlist super competitive builds, no, of course not. Is that the only reason you can imagine someone wanting to proxy? Maybe he has 4 ships but only enough cards to do the same load-out for 3 of them, but wants them all to be the same. Maybe he has a TIE Advanced and can't afford an Epic ship he won't otherwise use just to get a fix for it. Maybe he just as a funny idea for a theme that he's only going to use once.

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I mean why does the person who has purchased 4 Y-wings and a K-wing get the same treatment as someone who has purchased 4 Y-wings and 2 K-wings? One player has clearly paid $20 more to make that list yet they have to concede because it is a casual game?

Why wouldn't they get the same treatment? Why shouldn't it be about who is the better player, regardless of budget? Why should I care how much money someone spent before they show up to play the game? They're not giving that money to me. They could have 4 copies of Autothrusters or they could have a printout that lists Autothrusters 4 times, and it's exactly the same thing to me, from a play experience perspective. My game experience is not impacted in any fashion, except my opponent has more flexibility to do what he likes, and probably is therefore going to have more fun.

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Still it is understandable that proxies would not be welcomed in any competitive setting. As for competitive practice or experimentation that is the grey line that might extend beyond casual.

In competitive play, proxies are against the rules. FFG gets to set and enforce the rules, and those are the rules they're going with, and that's fine by me. If you're prepping for competitive play with tournament-oriented players then maybe they'd object, I don't know, I don't play in tournaments so I don't have a good feel for what people might object to.

But if you're not in a tournament, there really is no reason not to allow proxies, unless it's introducing some confusion into the game state. Which, at least for me, is the opposite of what a fleet builder printout will do.

8 hours ago, SabineKey said:

Not necessarily. Look back at the Chihuahua squad that popped up. It consisted of 5 Green Sqaudron A-Wings, all with Crack Shot/Adaptability/Chardaan Refit/Autothrusters/A-Wing Test Pilot. To get all the pieces (just going by packs), you need at least three Rebel Aces packs, two A-Wing packs, three Starvipers, three Mist Hunters, and five Kihraxz fighters (just naming the cheapest option) to make that list. And considering it turned up, some people managed to get it together.

It's not hard, everyone has 2 Adaptability and 2 Autothrusters, not everyone uses them. When I fielded Crack Swarm I borrowed 3 of the Cracks, when I play Parattani I borrow a Mindlink. The beauty of the "Fly Casual" environment makes it that it's quite rare for people to be douches and deny lending a card that they are obviously not using.

The cards that are hard to borrow are obviously Palpatine (most people who own it use it 99%) and Extra Munitions, and maybe VI.

4 hours ago, Ashley said:

Here is what you do, talk to your friend and discuss some limits on your game, you know each other and you and your friends are playing a nice casual game.

here is what you don't do, come on the FFG forum and ask the community if FFG should fix your friends attitude.

simple

Not asking strangers to fix my friend's attitude, I'm asking what you guys think about putting limits on proxying.

6 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

Not asking strangers to fix my friend's attitude, I'm asking what you guys think about putting limits on proxying.

Just curious. If you place limits or don't allow card proxies then what happen if they borrow cards from other folks. With the combo in your original post all they needed to do was borrow 1 Ruthless card since 2 of the come in the Decimator.

36 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

Not asking strangers to fix my friend's attitude, I'm asking what you guys think about putting limits on proxying.

If certain cards are spoiling the fun, limit the cards. Doesn't matter where your friend gets them from. Otherwise you're rewarding people for spending more money than their opponent.