A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away....

Oh. Wait. No- this is about here and now. Sorry.

I don't want to count them, but there is a rather large number of threads on this board calling for a fix to our beloved game, or a second edition. The reasons typically given boil down to power creep, stagnant meta, and a lack of iconic Star Wars ships seen on tourney tables. Many "fixes" have been proposed, ranging from ban lists to a complete overhaul of the game from the ground up.

I will now play the role of heretic, and suggest that there is a MUCH simpler fix; instead of fixing the game, lets fix the way we play it. You don't like the meta? Don't bring Attani, Palp Aces or any other meta-netlist to your games. Come up with something else and play it. You want to see more X-wings and TIE fighters on the table? Make that the starting point of your list building. From the ground up, build with the goal that you'll use those ships, and make the most efficient list you can using the ships you want to see in action. As for power creep, its the only inevitable "problem", because this game is built on selling expansions. People will only buy expansions that either offer a ship they really love, or that offers something new and interesting in the upgrades. New and interesting obviously CANNOT, by definition, be the same as what we already have. In limited design space, eventually, the new stuff will either have to become better or worse than what is currently available. If it becomes better, we get power creep. If it becomes worse, people leave ships like Jumpmasters on store shelves collecting dust. (As a non-competitive gamer, I already see this in my own buying habits, as I refuse to buy ships that I don't like even if they have interesting upgrades, so imagine how many fewer would sell if neither the ship nor its upgrades attracted the attention of competitive gamers.)

Any game I have played which has an expansion model tends to release "better" things as the game progresses, unless its dealing with a huge universe, so expansions just keep adding new factions. The most iconic parts of any franchise will be the first parts released, and so will often be outclassed by less iconic items released later. For example, in the old Star Fleet Battles game, the iconic Romulan Bird of Prey seen on TV was released in the core, basic set. It was severely outclassed later by Romulan ships invented by the publisher/designer and included in later expansions.

The bottom line is that we define, as players, how this game is played. We define what ships appear at tournaments. Yes, you may not win as often if you use older ships, but I would rather lose playing the game I want to play than win and complain about how I won. As players, we need to remember that this is a game; its something for PLAY. Therefore, we should take the toys we like, play with them, and enjoy it, win or lose. The "fix" for X-wing is to diminish the competitiveness with which we approach it, so that we're prepared to lose while flying whatever we want to fly, while doing our best to win with whatever we choose to bring. Play itself should be the goal. Striving to win should be what makes the game interesting, giving both players some degree of challenge, but I think we've missed the point when we are so focused on winning that we forget to play in a way we enjoy.

May the Force be with us all.

Note: I am not pretending that X-wing is perfectly balanced and without design flaws. The game is designed by humans, so imperfection is to be expected. It should also be understood that every "fix" creates new imbalances and new imperfections, which may or may not be treated positively by any one gamer, depending on if the changes improve things from the individual standpoint. The current game has flaws, but rather than being flawless, a second edition will just have (presumably) different flaws. I'd rather enjoy what I now have available than complain about it.

Well said.

Now, listen to the whingers....or just ignore them!

As some others have said, whinging does have its place - it's how/why some ships have been fixed - but, every now and then, it's nice to hear positive things. If this games wasn't fun to play, we wouldn't play it.

And, even for really competitive players, the list itself isn't as important as the way it's flown. An expert could cream me flying just basic Tie Fighters or X-Wings. Conversely, I can lose to an expert even if I have Parattanni.

The main complaint isn't the lack of alternatives or balance. Both of them are addressed by playing alternate formats: Heroes of the Aturi Cluster, Mario Kart (or Kessel Kup as I prefer), home-made ban lists, or a focus on Epic.

The main complaint underlying everything else is that Fantasy Flight Games itself has no apparent interest in supporting or creating alternatives to 100/6 - aside from Epic, which is an upsell rather than a real alternate format.

Because of that lack of alternatives, everything that FFG creates and has created is judged against the only standard that the company itself endorses: 100/6.

On top of that **** sundae is the crap cherry that FFG's design standard itself has shifted over the past five years, and the ships that people remember most fondly from the actual movies are obsolete by 100/6 standards. Is Countdown really the same value as a PS2 X-Wing? REALLY?

From a purely mechanical standpoint, the game is fine - it's getting more and more complicated, it's true, but that happens and the small scale of the matches means that you don't have a lot to remember if you bump across something new and weird. The cost of the game isn't expensive compared to many other wargames I've played.

But from a thematic standpoint of a Star Wars game where people want to see Wedge Antilles and Chewbacca fighting off a TIE horde, or skillfully pilot an A-Wing into the six of an Interceptor and ride it until it goes down in flames, or pit Slave 1 against Darth Vader? It's an utter failure, and getting worse all the time.

There are ways to correct that. But there's no corporate will to do so.

2 hours ago, MarekMandalore said:

I will now play the role of heretic, and suggest that there is a MUCH simpler fix; instead of fixing the game, lets fix the way we play it.

Thou doth speak with logic and rationality, for sooth. Heretic!! Burn* him!!!

Fixnerf! Fixnerf!! Fixnerf!!!

*Or maybe "Space him!!!"

45 minutes ago, iamfanboy said:

But from a thematic standpoint of a Star Wars game where people want to see Wedge Antilles and Chewbacca fighting off a TIE horde, or skillfully pilot an A-Wing into the six of an Interceptor and ride it until it goes down in flames, or pit Slave 1 against Darth Vader? It's an utter failure, and getting worse all the time.

Yep. I don't think the game mechanics need a fix, but I do think when I play the game I should get my Star Wars fix.

52 minutes ago, iamfanboy said:

The main complaint isn't the lack of alternatives or balance. Both of them are addressed by playing alternate formats: Heroes of the Aturi Cluster, Mario Kart (or Kessel Kup as I prefer), home-made ban lists, or a focus on Epic.

The main complaint underlying everything else is that Fantasy Flight Games itself has no apparent interest in supporting or creating alternatives to 100/6 - aside from Epic, which is an upsell rather than a real alternate format.

Because of that lack of alternatives, everything that FFG creates and has created is judged against the only standard that the company itself endorses: 100/6.

On top of that **** sundae is the crap cherry that FFG's design standard itself has shifted over the past five years, and the ships that people remember most fondly from the actual movies are obsolete by 100/6 standards. Is Countdown really the same value as a PS2 X-Wing? REALLY?

From a purely mechanical standpoint, the game is fine - it's getting more and more complicated, it's true, but that happens and the small scale of the matches means that you don't have a lot to remember if you bump across something new and weird. The cost of the game isn't expensive compared to many other wargames I've played.

But from a thematic standpoint of a Star Wars game where people want to see Wedge Antilles and Chewbacca fighting off a TIE horde, or skillfully pilot an A-Wing into the six of an Interceptor and ride it until it goes down in flames, or pit Slave 1 against Darth Vader? It's an utter failure, and getting worse all the time.

There are ways to correct that. But there's no corporate will to do so.

Thanks for sharing

I don't think there's much point in the two sides of this schism really trying to discuss it with each other as the points of view are such polar opposites - not just on whether one side or wrong but even on what the whole thing is even about.

In all the myriad threads discussing this issue in one way or another I don't think I've seen a single person say "you know what, I didn't agree with you but you've convinced me that your point of view is the right one". Opinions are not just entrenched but completely disconnected from each other - it's like trying to win a war when both sides aren't even deployed on the same battlefield!

Some people are happy, some people are unhappy. It's probably best to decide which of those you are and then only read the threads from people who feel likewise. FFG are going to do whatever FFG are going to do anyway, so from that point of view it's almost entirely just serving for people to blow off steam, so let them blow it off.

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Some people are happy, some people are unhappy. FFG are going to do whatever FFG are going to do anyway, so from that point of view it's almost entirely just serving for people to blow off steam, so let them blow it off.

Patently untrue. FFG has best mind what (a significant number of, by my estimation) people are saying if they also want to mind their bottom line. It's like saying that protesting is a waste of time because the status quo is the way it will always be. It's only the status quo. . .until it's not.

One of the main stumbling blocks for X-Wing Miniatures is the lack of "behind the scenes" glimpses for players. Other than one article about costing dials, there are no "designer's notes" features, "state of the game" articles, or "where is X-Wing headed" features. Stuff that get posted in News are ads for upcoming products, pure and simple, with small tips on play geared at "this is why you should buy it."

Game is fine. Anyone longing for the old days of jousting balanced lists at each other can just do this....

Tournament TODAY....

Play whatever.

1 minute ago, Darth Meanie said:

Patently untrue. FFG has best mind what (a significant number of, by my estimation) people are saying if they also want to mind their bottom line. It's like saying that protesting is a waste of time because the status quo is the way it will always be. It's only the status quo. . .until it's not.

The lead time on products is so great that any change based on customer feedback today probably won't appear until the back end of 2018, by which time the customer feedback will have been very different anyway. FFG are likely to pay very little attention because their focus is already over the horizon compared to what we are talking about now.

4 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

The lead time on products is so great that any change based on customer feedback today probably won't appear until the back end of 2018, by which time the customer feedback will have been very different anyway. FFG are likely to pay very little attention because their focus is already over the horizon compared to what we are talking about now.

Well, hopefully they guess right, or they may have a game in decline by 2018.

55 minutes ago, Velvetelvis said:

Game is fine. Anyone longing for the old days of jousting balanced lists at each other can just do this....

Tournament TODAY....

Play whatever.

Oh is that at worlds?

43 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Well, hopefully they guess right, or they may have a game in decline by 2018.

Not to warbel on you Brah, cause you are one of my fave-meanies... BUT: THIS GAME IS A SUPER SUCCESS BECAUSE OF TOY SPACE SHIP SALES... almost period on that.

Sure guys like many of us here can eye-peep-roll at the utter stupidity included in TFA; but dat is one of the best profit making films of all time ... like ever... like on all of Earth.

A billion or so folks could give a crap less about the silly-ass nerd-rage and meta arguments that happen here all of the time.

Love the game and the way it plays, even Epic. There are definitely a handful of ships that would need some kind of "fix" to be competitive BUT not everyone plays this game competitively, some like myself, just play for fun 90% of the time. That being said, I would still like to see some love spread to those few ships that need a hand so they're on par with what else is out there. As we gain more and more ships and upgrades it becomes almost impossible for everything to be absolutely balanced and thats fine. But that doesn't mean FFG cant address the reasonable concerns from the X-Wing Miniatures community and I stress reasonable because some of the stuff I read on here is just pure insanity lol

Ships who need love IMO : T-65 X-Wing, Rebel Y-Wing, B-Wing, Rebel HWK, Kihraxz, Star-Viper, TIE Punisher.

Titles and Mods that are appropriate and not insanely OP can help them all. And in time I hope FFG will address all the mentioned ships, but they have their own schedule etc. and the reality of it is they're in it to make money so if there isn't a way to release fixes for the above that generates more $$$, it will never happen. Either way the game is fun to play and i'm not going to stop, even if the "fixes" never come

3 hours ago, Gadgetron said:

Oh is that at worlds?

Negative. It's way more important than worlds. It's local store kit . Worlds tournament is only for like .000000000000000002 percent of the competitive scene.

Local stuff is for everyone.

10 hours ago, MarekMandalore said:

Play itself should be the goal .

Trust me play itself is my only goal since the game is dead in our area. Gotten only 2 games in since the start of 2017

4 hours ago, Phoenix5454 said:

Ships who need love IMO : T-65 X-Wing, Rebel Y-Wing, B-Wing, Rebel HWK, Kihraxz, Star-Viper, TIE Punisher.

E-wing needs fix too. More than tie defender needed. And i'm afraid ywing wont get any love not to make tlt too strong.

3 minutes ago, Zura said:

E-wing needs fix too. More than tie defender needed. And i'm afraid ywing wont get any love not to make tlt too strong.

I'm not sure about the E-Wing needing a fix more then the Defender (primarily due to the continued success of Corran), but it has definitely been on my "can't wait for' list. I've had to stop looking at fan made E-Wing fixes cause I want them so bad.

As a person who enjoys coming up with fixes and house-rule ideas to tweak my favorite games, I am often at odds with the folks who insist that I have no business enjoying the game in my own way.

To those of you who criticize folks who like to brainstorm fixes: Why is that such an affront to you? Why can't you just ignore us? When you go into a "fix" thread and argue that the game or some ship/upgrade is acceptable the way it is, you are raining on our parade. And for what, so you can convince somebody on the internet to change their mind? How does that usually turn out? We don't want your opinion. We didn't ask for your opinion. All you're doing is derailing our topic, which is inconsiderate. Most of these topics have very clear titles. How hard is it to just scroll past them and let us discuss the game the way they want to, with like-minded people?

My theory is that the impulse that drives people to criticize the "fixer threads" comes from a similar mentality to whatever inspires fervent believers of religion/politics/etc. to go forth and harass those with different beliefs. If everybody would just leave each other well enough alone, we'd all be happier.

The worst of these people are what I call "RAW (Rules-as-Written) Fundamentalists." These are the purists who will insist that the rules/balance of the game are fine as-is, and will not accept ANY argument that states otherwise. "If you don't like it, play another game," and "Git gud," are their mantras. Even when the designers come back and errata the rules or release an expansion that fixes the problem that absolutely exists, these guys will state, without even blinking, that the rules were perfect the old way, and are now also perfect the new way. People whose brains are wired like this probably make excellent religious zealots. Btw, I am not saying that the OP, or even most of the "fix" naysayers are like this. RAW fundies are in the relative minority in any game community, but they're definitely out there and they drive me nucking futz.

Also, consider this: People generally fall into two categories... competitive, and non-competitive. Group A and B.

Group A people value winning very highly. They tend to play the best ships with the best upgrades, to optimize their chances of winning. They play mostly 100/6, because that's the best way to practice the competitive format that is supported by FFG. I think it's perfectly reasonable that some of these players might wish that they could play more of the iconic ships (X-Wings, B-Wings) or some of the EU ships if they like the lore, and still be competitive. They want to be able to win a tournament playing an X-Wing that isn't named Biggs. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Group B people value theme over power when it comes to list building. They build lists of whatever they think is cool. They might limit themselves to playing only ships that have appeared in the movies, or they may refuse to mix ships and characters from different time periods. They might play a wider variety of formats, including epic. They might like to play missions, or HotAC. Their way of enjoying the game is vastly different than the Group A guys, but also perfectly legitimate.

You can also be a mix of both types, as I consider myself to be. I enjoy the 100/6 format, and I like to win, so I often choose to play strong lists... but I rarely play a top dominant meta list more than a few times, just to see what the hubub is all about. I've played X-Wing for a couple of years, but today I played my very first tournament at my FLGS. I could have taken Paratanni or Dengaroo or Palp Aces if winning was my absolute #1 priority, but I wanted to be a little more original than that. I brought a Bossk/Ketsu list that hits like a freight train and was strong enough to compete with other strong lists, and I did very well in the tournament. When I play casual games with my friends, we will talk about what kind of lists we will bring to a game ahead of time. Sometimes we agree to bring strong, tournament-worthy lists. Other times we will want to try lists that are more thematic, or experimental. By agreeing to bring a certain kind of list to a game, we reduce the chance that one of us will play a game feeling like we brought a knife to a gunfight. Recently, I asked my friend to take a break from putting Quickdraw in his lists, because I had played against that pilot 6 or 7 times. He happily agreed to bring something else the next time.

The thing is, I like variety. If I want to create a really strong list that I could use to win a larger tournament, I can really only play a small fraction of the available pilots in the game. Some very "weak" pilots would be perfectly competitive if only they could take an EPT, or if their ability didn't cost a stress, etc. Other pilots and upgrades, like /x7 Defenders, Zuckuss, and Palpatine, are so strong that they warp the game around them. You are basically handicapping yourself if you DON'T take them. This leads to the same pilots and upgrades showing up time and time again in the competitive scene. I have seen people with far more tournament experience say that the competitive meta and the variety of lists is the healthiest it's ever been, and that's great. There's no reason it can't get better, though.

I understand that the OP is suggesting that players can force their local metas to change by making a concerted effort to play sub-optimal ships in favor of the optimized power lists. I understand that it's a game. But guess what? Some of us like to play a little differently than you, and/or may value winning as part of our fun more than you do. Please respect our right to do that on our own turf... and in turn, feel free to tell us to cool it when one of us inevitably derails one of your threads.

Well said ! I play what I want !

I recently played with the Arc-170 and Sabine Tie fighter and they did a good job ! My friend played Arc-170 with 2x T-70. So much fun !

I hope in a future FFG release a official campaign box like they did for Armada ! It's the only think I want the most for X-Wing.

I OWN ONE STUPID-ASS JUMPS-DEE-SASS-TER.

Causes: ... I ain't never liked stupid-ass-dengar... but be dammed if I don't have ALL of The Bounty Hunter Ships in my mag-fiff co-lec-tion!!!

9 hours ago, mkevans80 said:

I understand that the OP is suggesting that players can force their local metas to change by making a concerted effort to play sub-optimal ships in favor of the optimized power lists. I understand that it's a game. But guess what? Some of us like to play a little differently than you, and/or may value winning as part of our fun more than you do. Please respect our right to do that on our own turf ... and in turn, feel free to tell us to cool it when one of us inevitably derails one of your threads.

Um, you missed the OP's point entirely. He is saying exactly the opposite. He said that if you are not a WAAC kind of player (as you obviously are), then bring what you like, and do your best to beat the local meta with the ships you like to play . He's not even suggesting the meta will change, he's not forcing you to play sub-optimal ships, and heck, since you will probably crush his fun x-wing list with your WAAC net list, your bloated ego oughta do quite well in his scenario.

@mkevans80 (first time using this function, let's see how it works)

I do believe this is a case of the extremes of both sides causing problems for the people in the middle. There are people who run around saying that the game is perfect as is, and responses to fix threads that are less then constructive. But, on the flip side, you have the fanatics who believe if their pet peeve isn't fix now, the whole game is doomed. The forums have been dealing with that for ages, and, unfortunately, it has lead to a reduced tolerance for even the more reasonable concerns/ideas. there is a need for fixes in areas of the game and inventing new ways to play should be commended, but when they are invented from a narrow view or a poor understanding of how the game works, it's hard not to see them like some of the extreme calls for changes we've seen before.