Hey guys,

I was starting to ask it in the thread related to prices, but I think it's better to ask it separately to not interfere with the thread.

So, basically, the base units for each army can be fielded with only two trays. any expansion pack for basic units come with two trays and a command dial, in short : a fieldable unit.

But, tactically, how will it reveal interesting ? I mean, it has been discussed by @Elliphino in one of his tactic threads that using bait units are a working tactic to sprea out the enemy attention being attacked or harassed by multiple small units. BUT : that small units as those two-trays ones I'm talking about are they viable on a battlefield ? Has anyone among you yet thought about fielding any unit with only two trays, knowing they won't be crazily upgradable nor will they have any reroll ability (if I'm correct with the rules) ?

That's some scenario that could be fun to play : a skirmish with both factions only fielding two trays units... or a full army of two trays units having to survive a six golems rush....

One minimum formation of spearmen equiped with fire rune. 25point unit to skirt the map and throw 0-8 damage a turn at range.

The archers are more flexible and able to blight more units in multiple minimum formations. Or with ardus equip them with fire rune.

The reanimates make good road blocks and with ardus give them terrifying heraldy for better morale tests.

I'm thinking of an army filled with small ranged skirmish units to constantly harass the foe from a distance. Then some sort of tarpit unit or guard to protect the archers.

If I were building a Daqan small unit list, I would focus on a few Spearmen units as speedbumps, and use Kari and Cavalry to get in multiple flank charges to inflict panic tokens, then use those to devastate larger enemy units. With Waiqar, I would focus on using Archers to blight, and throw some cheaper Reanimates out to cut off assault lanes for larger units. The real balance between larger units and smaller units is that a group of smaller units can inflict panic tokens on the larger unit equally to what the larger unit can do to one of the smaller units, so I think the best strategy when using a lot of smaller units is going to be maximizing flanking to inflict panic and deny rank bonuses. Kind of swarm them like piranhas, they can grab on and crush one unit at a time, but the rest of them are knawing away and doing little bits of damage until the big guy panics and makes a mistake.

A very important concept in miniature wargaming, and especially 'block' miniature wargames like Warhammer Fantasy Battles or Kings of War, are 'chaff units'.

Chaff is a term used for very cheap, weak, small and often fast/manouverable units used to pad out deployment counts, screen more valuable units from missile attacks, perform suicide missions like going in deep to hunt squishy artillery, threaten flanks, block attacks and generally get into your opponent's way to disrupt their tactics.

It is generally understood and recognized within the player community of those games that a proper balance between actual fighting troops and chaff units is essential to proper army construction and that an army with little or no chaff will be at a severe disadvantage versus a skilled opponent that brings more chaff.

Cheap, small 2-tray units of infantry or cavalry would essentially be the RWM equivalent of a 'chaff unit'. Naturally, stuff like light cavalry or light missile troops are most efficient while pulling chaff duty and we don't have any yet spoiled for RWM, but you can utilize nearly any unit as chaff provided it is reasonably cheap so that you are not bothered by essentially using it as a throwaway unit.

For a most basic example of how you can use chaff to your advantage, you can read up on redirecting charges in Warhammer Fantasy. It is a very nuanced concept, but here's the most simplified scenario: after your opponent lines up his killy unit right in front of your killy unit, you park a small chaff unit up close in front of them, a bit to the side and angled diagonally to the side. Your opponent now has to either move around your chaff unit or engage it in lieu of engaging more priority targets or otherwise expend resources to free up their killy unit. The way charges worked in Warhammer Fantasy, the charger would be the one to line up their front flush with the edge of the charged unit. Since your chaff unit is slightly off to the side and slightly diagonal to the chargers, the charging unit will have to swing around to line their front with the target's front. Regardless of whether the chaff unit is destroyed, survives or flees, chances are that your opponent has just presented the flank of their killy unit to your killy unit, now allowing you to engage their flank for a significant edge in combat compared to just meeting them head-on.

That is just one of many applications of a chaff unit.

I have no reason to believe the concept of chaff units and tactics will be less important in RWM play. If anything, the charge mechanics are very similar to Warhammer's, with the exact same 'charger lines up their front flush with the target' rule, so other than accounting for initiative and the integrated player turns, the exact same reditrecting tricks and tactics can be employed. Chaff might actually end up being even more crucial in RWM, given how inexact movements are and how potentially harsh the penalty for inadvertently bumping into a screening unit can be.

We had a good discussion of this in another thread a month or so ago. The trick of using the fact that an enemy that collides with you during a charge must line up with you is going to be a big element of tactics with small units. I could even see 2 tray rune golems being used as movable walls to turn cavalry.

The enemy unit doesn't line up with you, You line up with it.
I hate to keep honking the horn about threat value and small units going to 1 threat don't really do anything. That said, things like like a group of Rune Golems really want to come in once a targets threat values are significantly reduced so they are really hard to wound. That said I think duel 3 by 2 formations of Daqan Spearmen might be really strong considering the versatility of their dial. Skeletons look to be excessively cumbersome on the table and I think just increasing their footprint in general might be the most effective strategy.
Reanimate Archers might be strong to run as the minimums as currently Daqan have very few ways to reduce their output at range. Kari can do it and she is effective at it, but that is just one model.
Carrion Lancer msu is probably really strong being able to apply several blight tokens a turn and being very tough tarpits in their own right.
I expect any type of real MSU strategy from Daqan to be destroyed currently as their lack of ranged is a very real hindrance.
A full formation of reanimate archers with out upgrades is pretty capable of dropping 6-7 spearmen in a single attack.

I could see rune golems running in 1 tray formations as kind of an elite flanker. Oathsworn calvary seem to fragile to reanimate archers to run in their smallest formation, I think the 2 by 2 is the safest one and also most cost effective.
The 3by2 might offer some interesting ugrades as the supplements are released later on to make it worth it. The 3 by 3 seems almost foolish with how fragile they are for how expensive the unit is. I suppose that will entirely depend on Lord Hawthorne.

58 minutes ago, Obscene said:

The enemy unit doesn't line up with you, You line up with it.

Since you are not specifying charger and defender, I am unsure whether you are reiterating what was said or challenging the charge line up rules previously stated. But, just to be clear we're all on the same page:

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2017/1/9/marching-orders

This rules preview article both states and illustrates very clearly that the charged unit stays in place and it's the charging unit that is swung around to line up with it.

This is the exact same mechanic that is used in Warhammer and several other block movement games, and will, for better or worse (depending on whether you view it as a cheesy exploit or not) enable redirecting charges in order to facilitate flanking countercharges.

This is a good representation of what tends to occur in real world battles too. I like the way this game will deal with losses because it mimics flank collapse and how it can draw attackers out of formation

Some of the advantages include more deployments, more attacks, potentially easier flank/rear attacks, more special actions, and skirmisher or "chaff" (as described earlier). A huge advantage is the fact that most objectives are much easier to score for armies with more units. You may actually see a strong lean in some armies towards the objectives till the first wave hits.

A few of the noticeable disadvantages are less damage than larger tray units and are easier to destroy. Since those smaller units are easier to kill, you may also be giving your opponent more points.

Others have hit the main points and trade offs. We'll also have to dig in to objectives to see if there's any special advantages to small units there. Killing efficiently is great and all, and keeping units alive is also great, but winning the game is even better.

There's also a question of which units work better than others as small groups. Again, I preface every post with the disclaimer that we'll have to see how it works on the table top. But I see a severe limitation in Waiqar archers that they can't move or reform in the same round they shoot. That means that an opponent will have an easier time avoiding their arc, especially if the opponent is fast, like cavalry. An obvious counter strategy for the problem of arc dodging enemies is to have multiple small archer units spread their arcs out, refusing the enemy a place to hide.

Minimum units of Oathsworn might be better at arc dodging as their long trains in larger units could remain in an opponents arc, even though the front rank might be past it.

So there's two units that seem to have advantages with minimum unit sizes, but my guess is that Spearmen and Reanimates in minimum sized units are only suited to being sacrificial pawns, or maybe bunkers for heroes or upgrades like the fire rune.

As we actually get to play the game, we mind find all kinds of tactics that make small units viable that would be impossible to see now... Or we may not.

Like I've said before, I think we will see a tier 3 six tray size as a staple. It increases threat and gives a reroll, without too much cost. I only think we will see larger formations when a player needs to put a specific upgrade on a basic unit.

One thing to keep in mind when building your army (and when evaluating unit formations) is that you can't build for just one strategy. You don't know which objective you'll be playing for until after you've built your army. Therefore, there is value is keeping your army versatile: some big formations, some small formations, some mobility, some ranged attackers, some durable units, etc.

Small formations will have their place in the game for this purpose. They're good at some things that larger units aren't, and that's valuable for some objective cards.

Plus, there's always the part where small formations are more efficient damage-dealers than larger formations. They sacrifice durability by not having extra layers, but point-for-point, they do the most damage.

I think it's likely that we find a sweet spot for spearmen with 6 trays. I've mainly been thinking about 6-tray spearmen supported by single Rune Golems. But I could see replacing those single Rune Golems with 2x Spearmen units just because their dial is sooo much more flexible and provides such better support options, even if they don't hit so hard.

I could also see supporting larger units of Rune Golems with minimum units of spearmen.

3by2 Spearmen hit as hard as just about anything else. They also maintain their 3 threat bonus for 16 wounds which is a pretty fair amount.
Strong tactical flexibility that will pretty much always remain relevant from it's upgrade possibilities.
A point of criticism, just to be devils advocate, is just how important a *flexible* dial really is. Once battle is engaged your amount of viable actions become extremely limited and all the options on that dial become almost null.

8 hours ago, Kubernes said:

A few of the noticeable disadvantages are less damage than larger tray units and are easier to destroy. Since those smaller units are easier to kill, you may also be giving your opponent more points.

Points are scored on points remaining. This distinction is important for two reasons.

1.) smaller units are more points permodel

2.) If you can get several smaller units onto a "deathstar" unit, you can devastate that unit and easily knock out more points than you lose.

2 hours ago, Obscene said:

3by2 Spearmen hit as hard as just about anything else. They also maintain their 3 threat bonus for 16 wounds which is a pretty fair amount.
Strong tactical flexibility that will pretty much always remain relevant from it's upgrade possibilities.
A point of criticism, just to be devils advocate, is just how important a *flexible* dial really is. Once battle is engaged your amount of viable actions become extremely limited and all the options on that dial become almost null.

Let's take a quick look at the combat portions of the dials:

Waiqar

Reanimates: Red 4 + Morale

Reanimate Archers: Red 9 + Surge or Damage

Carrion Lancers: Red 5 + Morale

Ardus: Red 3 + Damage, Surge , Defense +1, or Rally

Daqan

Spearmen: Yellow 3 + Special ; Red 7 + Damage or Special

Knights: Yellow 3 + Defense ; Red 7 + Damage or Defense

Golems: Red 5 + Defense (rune-based), Rally, or Reform <=I'll also point out that they Brutal based on Stable Runes

Kari: Red 4 + Surge, Accuracy , or Rally

3 hours ago, Obscene said:

3by2 Spearmen hit as hard as just about anything else. They also maintain their 3 threat bonus for 16 wounds which is a pretty fair amount.
Strong tactical flexibility that will pretty much always remain relevant from it's upgrade possibilities.
A point of criticism, just to be devils advocate, is just how important a *flexible* dial really is. Once battle is engaged your amount of viable actions become extremely limited and all the options on that dial become almost null.

On the dials, it's a good point... we don't really know how their value ought to be weighted yet. And the weighting of certain maneuvers will vary with the other qualities of the unit and also the meta game. In X-Wing, dials are pretty **** important. But like you said, you don't get dug in with X-Wing the way you do with melee and a 2-dimensional maneuver space.

Still, if you take the following set up:

Say unit 2 is spearmen, and 1 and 3 are rune golems. What happens if unit B is the most dangerous one and you want your rune golems to attack in before it can attack your spearmen? Without a turning charge, there's not much they can do. What happens if unit C moves to outflank unit 3? Unit 3 would have to reform to face that unit, leaving exposed to a charge from Unit B, and unable to provide a counter-charging deterrent to anyone that might charge unit 2.

If, on the other hand units 1 and 2 are small units of spearmen instead of golems (Unit 2 is still your medium to big spearmen unit) then you have way more options. Unit 3 can charge unit B. Yes, it gets counter-charged, but its an expendable unit. Unit 3 could also hang back and stay square with the opponent units even as they try to outflank, to some degree, while still maintaining the option to charge the flanking unit, counter-charge the center unit, or possibly even play bait and switch in a single turn because it can wheel and turn.

Finally, you have to consider what happens after the combat. If I put a significant amount of points into a unit, whether it's rune golems or spearmen, then I expect it to win a melee fight, at least most of the time. Then what does it do? The better my command dial, the better odds I have of getting back into the think of things once I dispatch my opponent's unit.

Again, my disclaimer is that we'll have to wait and see (or wait and practice!) but I see the potential for some real value coming from command dial flexibility.

45 minutes ago, Elliphino said:

On the dials, it's a good point... we don't really know how their value ought to be weighted yet. And the weighting of certain maneuvers will vary with the other qualities of the unit and also the meta game. In X-Wing, dials are pretty **** important. But like you said, you don't get dug in with X-Wing the way you do with melee and a 2-dimensional maneuver space.

Still, if you take the following set up:

Say unit 2 is spearmen, and 1 and 3 are rune golems. What happens if unit B is the most dangerous one and you want your rune golems to attack in before it can attack your spearmen? Without a turning charge, there's not much they can do. What happens if unit C moves to outflank unit 3? Unit 3 would have to reform to face that unit, leaving exposed to a charge from Unit B, and unable to provide a counter-charging deterrent to anyone that might charge unit 2.

If, on the other hand units 1 and 2 are small units of spearmen instead of golems (Unit 2 is still your medium to big spearmen unit) then you have way more options. Unit 3 can charge unit B. Yes, it gets counter-charged, but its an expendable unit. Unit 3 could also hang back and stay square with the opponent units even as they try to outflank, to some degree, while still maintaining the option to charge the flanking unit, counter-charge the center unit, or possibly even play bait and switch in a single turn because it can wheel and turn.

Finally, you have to consider what happens after the combat. If I put a significant amount of points into a unit, whether it's rune golems or spearmen, then I expect it to win a melee fight, at least most of the time. Then what does it do? The better my command dial, the better odds I have of getting back into the think of things once I dispatch my opponent's unit.

Again, my disclaimer is that we'll have to wait and see (or wait and practice!) but I see the potential for some real value coming from command dial flexibility.

I'll add that in X-Wing you can more easily rather than having to choose that action in Runewars.

While Golems do not have the ability to turn, they get a white reform ability that could easily allow them to face in the direction of enemy. Additionally, you can have units just shift right or left too. This could get them out of charge lanes or to set up your own.

I might try more knights on the flank rather spearmen because of that huge movement bonus they can get and because of that extra die when attacking. In fact, that extra die will be very helpful against Waiqar that happen to plant a blight token on it. You just know that blight in Waiqar will be big till we get more expansions.

Durability wise, all of the small tray units are somewhat similar. Spearmen have the most models per try but are going to lose them extremely easily. Knights have fewer models than the spearmen but boast that higher defense and have a much more flexible white defense. Golems have even more defense and health but only a single model before dying. The higher defense should prove more effective when up against other two try units.

The more I look at it, the worse smaller units of spearmen seem. On the one hand they have a decent dial when it comes to blue positioning. On the other they tend to suffer when up against other two tray units* in close combat.

*I say two tray but for the sake of price comparisons, I just mean one tray for lancers or golems.

The blight token will be a very strong strategy until Lord Hawthorne can provide some counterplay. I don't know if Warcrier will be enough, it might though.
Combat seems to be very grindy by looking at some of the demos, very few alpha strike opportunities so far.

Like I've said before, I think we will see a tier 3 six tray size as a staple. It increases threat and gives a reroll, without too much cost. I only think we will see larger formations when a player needs to put a specific upgrade on a basic unit.

One important factor in this is post-game scoring, especially since people mentioned objectives. I remember someone mentioned in a video or interview that if a unit has missing trays you don't get points for it at the end of the game. Having a bigger unit with some trays left may be more valuable than a bunch of small units all with missing trays.

11 hours ago, Obscene said:

Combat seems to be very grindy by looking at some of the demos, very few alpha strike opportunities so far.

I agree. The only way I can see for speeding things up is to create 2 on 1, or even 3 on 1 situations.

Speaking of which, does anyone know what advantages attacking an opponent's flank and rear incur?

26 minutes ago, Elliphino said:

I agree. The only way I can see for speeding things up is to create 2 on 1, or even 3 on 1 situations.

Speaking of which, does anyone know what advantages attacking an opponent's flank and rear incur?

I think an additional panic token for flank and two for rear, but I'm not 100% sure.

Also, I would infer that a unit attecked to the flank would have to retaliate counting their flank edge as the engagement edge, so depending on size and formation that might change the damage multiplier and re-roll count of the charged unit.

Other than that, I like the idea of combat being grindy. Medieval combat was very grindy when bodies of troops just met each other head on. In fact, most ancient and medieval tactics revolved around flanking and concentrating overwhelming force in the weakest parts of the opposing formation due to the grindy nature of head on engagements.

In fact, I'd prefer head on engagements to be even MORE grindy than what we've seen so far in Runewars, to reward flanking tactics more. From what I've seen so far, small footprint, killy units like Ardus have the potential to buzzsaw through multiple trays of opposition VERY quickly even in straight up front-to-front engagements, which makes me worried about the game eventually devolving into a contest of unique heroes and small units of monsters, with actual rank-and-file units being just a distraction.

57 minutes ago, player1750031 said:

I think an additional panic token for flank and two for rear, but I'm not 100% sure.

Also, I would infer that a unit attecked to the flank would have to retaliate counting their flank edge as the engagement edge, so depending on size and formation that might change the damage multiplier and re-roll count of the charged unit.

Other than that, I like the idea of combat being grindy. Medieval combat was very grindy when bodies of troops just met each other head on. In fact, most ancient and medieval tactics revolved around flanking and concentrating overwhelming force in the weakest parts of the opposing formation due to the grindy nature of head on engagements.

In fact, I'd prefer head on engagements to be even MORE grindy than what we've seen so far in Runewars, to reward flanking tactics more. From what I've seen so far, small footprint, killy units like Ardus have the potential to buzzsaw through multiple trays of opposition VERY quickly even in straight up front-to-front engagements, which makes me worried about the game eventually devolving into a contest of unique heroes and small units of monsters, with actual rank-and-file units being just a distraction.

Your point reminds me of the armada debate of "Are squadrons/flotillas too prevalent?" For armada, I actually like the squads being prevalent since that's pretty much how all the movies are. For this game, I'll wait and see. It'll obviously be quite different here since the core mechanics of heroes and larger squads are the same where squads vs. ships use very different rules in armada.

I could definitely see there being an upward restriction on the number of unit cards you could field in games over 300 points if they ever have an 'epic play' option like XWing does. Otherwise the standard point system should be restriction enough from having a lot of huge units or too many small units. There is a lot of evidence that makes it appear the point cost was well playtested the way XWing core was.