43 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

The lynchpin of my argument for my proposed build being the best was using pressure point with improved parry, which as you pointed out is against raw, thanks for pointing that out, I wasn't aware, therefore I retract my claim that my proposed build was the best 3 spec martial artist build.

Its still up there Imo though because 6 ranks of parry is right up there when it comes to fighting things with high pierce or breach, and the offence is no slouch , regardless like Richard says its not all about combat ( my Gm actually gave me the chance to rebuild my warden as an MA as he knew I built it round brawling combat and while it has more offensive capabilities I stuck with warden and only dipped into MA to get parry and unarmed parry as well. The warden to me is more "flexible" and is about more than just combat, even in combat, however if it was flat out dmg ability along with some defense, for the xp I think its hard to beat that combo ( but im sure my three choices arent the "best" either)

So this might not max out melee or brawl, but how well does this spec combo synergize? Hermit/martial artist or trailblazer/martial artist?

Does the disorient and prey on the weak from trailblazer work well together with the criting talents of martial artist?

1 hour ago, TheShard said:

So this might not max out melee or brawl, but how well does this spec combo synergize? Hermit/martial artist or trailblazer/martial artist?

There isn't a whole lot of synergy between either of these combos. Thematically, mechanically, I don't see much going on here.

I suppose the Hermit's Conditioned talent ranks could help a Martial Artist with some of his career skills, and reducing falling damage feels kinda martial-arts-y. But other that that, yeah not really much synergy.

1 hour ago, TheShard said:

Does the disorient and prey on the weak from trailblazer work well together with the criting talents of martial artist?

Yeah, it can. The +damage from Prey on the Weak can potentially allow unarmed attacks to exceed higher soak values. But there's nothing else in the tree that synergizes with Martial Artist. You could just buy into Marauder and get a couple ranks of Feral Strength cheap, and those talents are just always on; they don't key off the "disoriented" condition like Prey on the Weak does.

My hermit was mostly an example. Menace and Harass are nice Talents when you have a suitably tough pet, and Enhance makes up for you skill defect

10 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

The rules leave it up to the GM and players if critical injuries would make sense in a given situation when dealing strain damage.

If you as a player could convince me as the GM that your doctor, using pressure point, should be able to rip the arms off the target in question, then sure I would allow it but all things being equal, I don't think such a narrative makes much sense.

There are a lot of times when crits don't really make sense IMO. I mean if someone takes 1 point of wound damage and loses a limb that doesn't really make any sense either does it? For that matter, wouldn't losing a limb cause some damage all of its own accord with the bleeding and what not?

I guess the way I would explain it is knowing the exact place of a nerve cluster or major artery and how to prod it just so to cut off its circulation, resulting in the effective loss of the limb as it simply dies while still on the body. The kind of kung fu trope that uses acupuncture points in conjunction with finger strikes to disable the opponents body. Xena used to do this kind of thing too. Not necessarily realistic, but then the whole notion of inflicting damage to people via pressure points is already that exact trope codified into the game, just not as crits but as armor ignoring damage.

The whole "A crit is only possible if it makes sense" line or argument is a bit of a slippery slope I think. There are just too many weapons where certain crits are kind of hard to explain.

I find it reassuring that most of these builds do little to convince me that a high-end Ranged (Light) weapon isn't still one of the best weapons to have in close combat. Han knew what he was talking about.

1 hour ago, Aetrion said:

The whole "A crit is only possible if it makes sense" line or argument is a bit of a slippery slope I think. There are just too many weapons where certain crits are kind of hard to explain.

Hold yer cracian thumpers there, partner. I never said "a crit is only a crit if it makes sense." That is a strawman.

All I was saying is that the rules on strain damage allow for ruling against critical injuries when it wouldn't make sense. It's not a slippery slope, because there's a big difference between what I'm saying (that there can be sensible exceptions to the crit rating rule when strain damage is involved) and what you're saying I'm saying (that a crit must make sense, or else it's not a crit—thereby making every critical injury the exception to the rule).

Also, receiving 1 wound and also a critical injury makes plenty of sense to me. You can be physically compromised or in poor condition and still conscious, still capable of putting up a fight. That's what the Wound Threshold represents: your ability to take a beating, to fight through the pain. But you can still receive some nasty injuries while staying up

(That's right—the thought of nasty injuries makes me smile)

Anyway, we are veering wildly off topic.

To tie it in, speaking of critical injuries, a brawler might benefit from a specialization that can reduce or mitigate critical injuries. You're already a natural choice for a tank with you high Brawn. The Commando is one of those especially "durable" specializations, and might be a good supporting talent tree for the unarmed fighter.

4 hours ago, TheShard said:

So this might not max out melee or brawl, but how well does this spec combo synergize? Hermit/martial artist or trailblazer/martial artist?

Does the disorient and prey on the weak from trailblazer work well together with the criting talents of martial artist?

Hermit will only allow you to have fr 3 max so you wont have the FR 4 so that you can have a silhouette 2 pet that is needed for the 10 xp talent (away from books so I cant remember which is the 10 xp talent).

I didnt really finish this post earlier with regards to crit on strain damage (had a problem with my tablet keyboard). Page 223 covers strain damage and crits. Just go to an A &E section in hospital, someone faints and falls, then breaks arm or leg / or hits their head and has a much more serious head injury. Crits on strain damage are not only RAW but actually make a lot of sense. Just read the box on page 223 of the F&D core.

Edit also note that if it doesn't make sense for that particular situation, then the last sentence covers that also.

Here is an interesting one , warden / warleader / vanguard ,/ enforcer concentrate on talents that cause strain damage.

Scathing tirade

Fearsome 5

Walk the walk (coupled with high streetwise)

Suppressing fire (4 ranks of it)

Now you are a strain master, get to short range of your opponent and use scathing tirade causing AOE strain to anyone in short range, if you have no escape you can use that to 'hold' targets in place and keep them in short range to you (influence power is good here if you get your FR up). Engage on opponent and you trigger fearsome, they then have to face a 5 purple fear check. Fail and each additional fail causes 1 additional strain dmg assuming 2 green dice on the check they could be looking at between 4-10 Strain damage from this alone. Punch for strain damage (remember to pick up enhance brawl to add force dice to the check) and use a DP to add streetwise 5 dmg and its base 16 dmg (equipment as per the previous build) if you hit and if you miss with advantage you get 4 strain dmg that ignores soak.

It is that last part that is key. 4 other people firing and missing will do 16 strain damage ignoring soak due to suppressing fire , if the group is concentrating onnstrain damage if they hit they may actually do less damage than if they miss.(depending on soak)

It is a lot of specs for one combo, but amongst all those you can pick up a lot of utility.

6 hours ago, syrath said:

I didnt really finish this post earlier with regards to crit on strain damage (had a problem with my tablet keyboard). Page 223 covers strain damage and crits. Just go to an A &E section in hospital, someone faints and falls, then breaks arm or leg / or hits their head and has a much more serious head injury. Crits on strain damage are not only RAW but actually make a lot of sense. Just read the box on page 223 of the F&D core.

Edit also note that if it doesn't make sense for that particular situation, then the last sentence covers that also.

Yes, that is the bit of time that we got sidetracked on. Thanks for the page number.

Like I said several posts earlier, my only issue was the idea of the narrative quality of "ripping someone's arms off" when using the Pressure Point talent. That was all. I'm in full agreement with the sidebar on strain damage and critical injuries. It was just that one instance mentioned that I thought was odd and that I wouldn't readily allow for someone performing Pressure Point. Unless it's a Wookiee, of course.

The other completely separate issue was that, with Pressure Point, you can really maximize your damage output, and I'd want to default to that when building such a PC. Rather than trying to make him a crit machine, use your XP to get his ranks in Medicine up, and also to improve his Brawn rating. Then use the two-weapon fighting rules and just punch them a bunch of times

44 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

Yes, that is the bit of time that we got sidetracked on. Thanks for the page number.

Like I said several posts earlier, my only issue was the idea of the narrative quality of "ripping someone's arms off" when using the Pressure Point talent. That was all. I'm in full agreement with the sidebar on strain damage and critical injuries. It was just that one instance mentioned that I thought was odd and that I wouldn't readily allow for someone performing Pressure Point. Unless it's a Wookiee, of course.

The other completely separate issue was that, with Pressure Point, you can really maximize your damage output, and I'd want to default to that when building such a PC. Rather than trying to make him a crit machine, use your XP to get his ranks in Medicine up, and also to improve his Brawn rating. Then use the two-weapon fighting rules and just punch them a bunch of times

Yeah there was a thread on the Edge forum that shows exactly how silly it can get

Brawn 7 , streetwise 6, medicine 6, brawl 6, coordination 6 - all possible through cybernetics

So base 7 + 6 (walk the walk costs 1 DP), + 6(Pressure Point ) + 6 (Deadly accuracy) + 6 (martial grace, cost 2 strain) +6 (feral strength) + 4 (prey on the weak) , means you are hitting for base 41 dmg that ignores soak. Dual wielding is a bit of a waste as most of these dont count on the second hit on a combat check, but using the martial artists crit control can mean you hit for 82 base damage over two hits that ignores soak, and your dice pool is 6 yellow 1 green and most likely a couple of white dice (from aggressor) that can be upgraded further with frenzied attack.

Its probable about 2000 xp to do this though.

Edit for reference though with this xp and an autofire heavy build you would probably be doing a much higher damage, albeit not bypassing soak, so it is hardly broken, it just shows how silly you can get when you want to build a one trick pony that focuses on only damage, the difference is that the brawl build is doing this with his thumb (a reference is there for all you Sean Connery fans)

If you were building a Noghri death commando which of these specs works best, martial artist/assassin?

35 minutes ago, TheShard said:

If you were building a Noghri death commando which of these specs works best, martial artist/assassin?

Sure! Martial Artist is a great spec for the Noghri, and Assassin has some nice long-range capabilities. It also keeps it in-career.

Just make sure you're not blowing too much strain on Dodge and Parry, though.

Yes, because it's better to go all in with 1 of those talents then to split it eh?

3 hours ago, TheShard said:

Yes, because it's better to go all in with 1 of those talents then to split it eh?

True: Parry becomes "cheaper," in essence, when you buy more ranks. Dodge not so much; you just spend your desired number of strain to apply that many difficulty upgrades. But every time you introduce a red die you are increasing the chance for a Despair! So that's something.

And also, it's just like, you spend 1-3 strain activating 1-3 ranks of dodge, and then if the attack hits you spend 3 strain to activate Parry...it adds up quickly if you're not careful.

The Dodge benefit lies in Improved Parry. Those extra threat and Despair can effectively double the damage you deal by allowing you to hit out of turn. For that reason Ataru Striker is an awesome second spec for a hyper focused Martial Artist. There are 2 ranks of Dodge, 3 more Parry, Jump up, Quick Draw, Conditioned, Improved Parry and 2 Quick Strike then the Dedication m. The only Force Talent your wasting xp on is the Ataru Technique talent for 10xp. Good deal if you ask me

15 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

I find it reassuring that most of these builds do little to convince me that a high-end Ranged (Light) weapon isn't still one of the best weapons to have in close combat. Han knew what he was talking about.

As evidenced in my last session. I have a Jedi Gunslinger (Gunslinger/Force Sensitive Exile) who pretty much shoots first each combat and deals epic amounts of damage.

Weapons: two tricked out DR-45 Dragoons (Bantha Eye, Custom Grip, BAM) dealing 10 damage each + success. With dual wielding at medium range, he deals around 13/13 points of damage per hit on avg (before soak), not including critical hits. With FR2 and Enhance, his attack roll is: YGGGG + Accurate 2 (BB) + Aiming twice (BB), which nets a godly amount of advantage to trigger his second attack and usually a critical hit. Initiative rolls are: Vig: YGBB, Cool: YGGG, + I have Rapid Reaction 1.

With the Call 'Em talent, you can disarm people fairly easily, which can end fights before they get serious. Plus if they try to get close, I have a Jetpack and Type III Berethron armour with the ascension cable attachment (best 250cr investment ever!) which makes any melee combat practically trivial. However, he is a glass canon with only Soak 3.

He's also not just a one trick pony, doubling as the party tracker (Seek force power), face (Pr4 + FR2 Influence), mechanic (YGG), pilot and scout (from his Ag3 + FR2 Enhance). The only thing he can't do is crack computer terminals.

Not bad for a character with 200XP + starting.

Remember dodges greatest benefit is that it works against any attack coming your way, however 3 ranks of dodge is going to cost 3 strain per attack, to essentially upgrade 3 purple to red dice. 3 ranks of parry is going to mitigate 5 points of damage from a single melee attack (which in turn covers melee / brawl / or lightsaber checks), again has to be triggered each attack. Defensive stance costs a maneuver and the same strain as dodge (1 per rank) , works on all attacks until next turn.

So from this

Dodge works better when you have fewer incoming attacks, but of varying types

Defensive stance works better against multiple melee oppponents.

Parry works better against fewer opponents in melee

Sometimes it is handy to have a combination, if you have defensive stance and dodge you could use both. Trigger defensive stance and then use dodge where needed to supplement it or if attacked from a single ranged opponent while you are standing in a horde of minions (more reds means they could kill their own allies).

So parry and dodge are handy bed fellows although parry and defensive stance or reflect and side step are less so.

11 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

The Dodge benefit lies in Improved Parry. Those extra threat and Despair can effectively double the damage you deal by allowing you to hit out of turn. For that reason Ataru Striker is an awesome second spec for a hyper focused Martial Artist. There are 2 ranks of Dodge, 3 more Parry, Jump up, Quick Draw, Conditioned, Improved Parry and 2 Quick Strike then the Dedication m. The only Force Talent your wasting xp on is the Ataru Technique talent for 10xp. Good deal if you ask me

I personally think for the unarmed martial artist overbalance is better than improved parry, Even melee weapons stuck at base damage (without breach) are a bit lacklustre. 6 or 7 damage less soak is less likely to be of interest than having your opponent lose his action altogether (and if you have a refined cortosis glove and are having trouble getting through their parry just turn off their saber). Note that even feral strength doesnt count on improved parry.

14 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

I find it reassuring that most of these builds do little to convince me that a high-end Ranged (Light) weapon isn't still one of the best weapons to have in close combat. Han knew what he was talking about.

I would have to agree here , and I love playing my brawler. Wasnt there even a saying about bringing a knife to a gun fight, you could be the best brawler in the world but thst counts for nothing if you dont get close.

5 minutes ago, syrath said:

I would have to agree here , and I love playing my brawler. Wasnt there even a saying about bringing a knife to a gun fight, you could be the best brawler in the world but thst counts for nothing if you dont get close.

I was actually trying to say that, in this system, it pays to bring a gun to a knife fight--something that many other systems seek to penalize. Sure, it gets a small penalty in this system, but it's really not much compared to the benefits it brings.

15 minutes ago, syrath said:

I personally think for the unarmed martial artist overbalance is better than improved parry, Even melee weapons stuck at base damage (without breach) are a bit lacklustre. 6 or 7 damage less soak is less likely to be of interest than having your opponent lose his action altogether (and if you have a refined cortosis glove and are having trouble getting through their parry just turn off their saber)

Think it's a bit of both. Shutting down a powerful opponent with over balance is awesome but finishing off a weaker opponent with improved parry frees you up for other actions. It's a matter of flexibility.

46 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

Think it's a bit of both. Shutting down a powerful opponent with over balance is awesome but finishing off a weaker opponent with improved parry frees you up for other actions. It's a matter of flexibility.

Unarmed , you would be doing so little damage that it wouldn't be effective to waste three threat or a despair on causing base damage less soak on your opponents. If your GM is giving that little for the opponent rolling 3 threat or a despair , even using the threat to cause strain damage (probably the lowest effect and least imaginative option) would quite possibly cause the same or more damage to a minion. Just my opinion, althought it would always be nice to have the choice if you knew your opponent was just hanging on ,although I'd still hope the GM could come up with something better. Melee and especially lightsabers may be more worthwhile but even looking at the wording of pierce Im not sure even it would apply (given how literal and obscure some of the dev rulings have been recently (see thread on combined checks within talents, where I realised I'd been doing that one wrong for ages, along with most others)

I definitely agree it's dependent on your particular character, if you only dish out 4+Success damage and it's the crits your going for then fine, it's pointless. But if you have a base damage of 6 or 7 then it's not too shabby in a bar fight. Again, it's about some versatility.