Has anyone in Europe gotten hold of this book yet from their local game stores ?

I've not seen it available here in Norway yet... still waiting....

15 hours ago, Dakkar98 said:

To me, it is pretty clearly spelled out on page 78:

When building a vehicle or starship, the crafter must first construct the three core components: a frame, an engine, and a hull. For each of these core components, the crafter performs Steps 1-3: choosing a template, acquiring the materials, and performing the listed checks over the amount of time specified.

• Frame: A frame is the skeleton of a starship or vehicle. It is treated as a ship or vehicle (albeit one that cannot operate until specific attachments are added during Step 4 : Assembly). The frame provides the craft's base line parameters.
• Engine: An engine is the craft's power source. It is treated as an attachment that can only be attached to a frame that does not already have an engine. It provides vehicle's speed, system strain threshold, and defense.
• Hull: A hull is the body and armor of the vessel. It is treated as an attachment that can only be attached to a frame that does not already have a hull. It provides the vehicle's armor and handling.

Once the crafter completes Step 3: Construction successfully for the selected frame, engine, and hull (by spending the requisite hours and succeeding on the listed check as usual), the character has the elements needed to assemble the starship or vehicle. At this point, the crafter is ready to perform Step 4: Assembly, adding the engine and hull to the frame . Once successfully assembled, the new vehicle or starship is fully operational and ready for a crew to use it against
the Empirel

You could probably choose to build the Hull second and the Engine third, but the Frame is first. It provides the baseline parameters for the other 2 components.

Couldn’t agree more.

8 hours ago, Ahrimon said:

(Addressing the bolded parts.)

The frame is the baseline, but that doesn't mean that it has to be built first. This is a narrative game with space tech and such. There's nothing saying that a frame couldn't be designed for a hull. Also, consider the attachment part. Does a blaster have to be built before a Blaster Actuating Module can be designed? The same BAM in the books works on every single blaster pistol in the game. A character can take one off the blaster of a defeated foe and have it placed onto their blaster if they wanted. The other parts are attachments, but by the book and narratively they are interchangeable. As for adding it, well yes the frame would have to be completed before the ship could be assembled, but I still stand by my reading that nothing prevents the Hull and engines being designed and built before the frame.

Actually, yes, it does, just as in reality. Without a frame, a hull won't hold together. Every vehicle starts with a frame, be it a car, truck, boat, ship, speeder, spaceship. etc. You always start with a frame.

Of course it won't hold together. It's just a hull, it's multiple pieces ready to be installed on a frame. Starships aren't one giant piece of durasteel on the outside, they're made of multiple sections. So the hull would be built and sitting in the warehouse until the frame gets built.

In the real world it's all done together, but we're not talking the real world. By our FO rules someone could build a frame, an hull, or engines then go on a mission or two and pick up where they left off when they get back. And as a home built ship, I'm cool with that. Just like someone could build body panels for a car, go on vacation and put together the frame when they get back. We're not talking factory line production, but garage production under these rules.

58 minutes ago, Ahrimon said:

Of course it won't hold together. It's just a hull, it's multiple pieces ready to be installed on a frame. Starships aren't one giant piece of durasteel on the outside, they're made of multiple sections. So the hull would be built and sitting in the warehouse until the frame gets built.

In the real world it's all done together, but we're not talking the real world. By our FO rules someone could build a frame, an hull, or engines then go on a mission or two and pick up where they left off when they get back. And as a home built ship, I'm cool with that. Just like someone could build body panels for a car, go on vacation and put together the frame when they get back. We're not talking factory line production, but garage production under these rules.

No. In the real world, it is all done in steps. First the frame is constructed, then the hull and engine. The only one of those two second components that can conceivably be built independently of the frame is the engine. Engines are completely interchangeable "ready to install" parts. This is not true of hulls. Sections of hull plating are not a hull. Yes, you can manufacture individual hull plates without a preexisting frame, but you cannot actually build a hull without the frame. You cannot even build hull sections without the frame.

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No. In the real world, it is all done in steps. First the frame is constructed, then the hull and engine. The only one of those two second components that can conceivably be built independently of the frame is the engine. Engines are completely interchangeable "ready to install" parts. This is not true of hulls. Sections of hull plating are not a hull. Yes, you can manufacture individual hull plates without a preexisting frame, but you cannot actually build a hull without the frame. You cannot even build hull sections without the frame.

Yeah, there’s not much more that needs to be said about this. It’s clearly structured in such a way so as to follow the order that it has been printed in. The only reason to try and change th order would be to exploit the system for min/max reasons, clearly not something that the game designers would support.

16 hours ago, Ahrimon said:

(Addressing the bolded parts.)

The frame is the baseline, but that doesn't mean that it has to be built first. This is a narrative game with space tech and such. There's nothing saying that a frame couldn't be designed for a hull. Also, consider the attachment part. Does a blaster have to be built before a Blaster Actuating Module can be designed? The same BAM in the books works on every single blaster pistol in the game. A character can take one off the blaster of a defeated foe and have it placed onto their blaster if they wanted. The other parts are attachments, but by the book and narratively they are interchangeable. As for adding it, well yes the frame would have to be completed before the ship could be assembled, but I still stand by my reading that nothing prevents the Hull and engines being designed and built before the frame.

The frame has to be designed before the hull is designed, or the could be designed simultaneously, after they are designed they can be manufactured in either order, but the frame has to be assembled/welded before the hull can be assembled on it. Assembly is the final step. If you want to narratively fidget with the timeline of the manufacturing I'd be okay with that as the GM, but I would say the bulk of the mechanics check is for design rather than manufacturing so you would still be making the mechanics check for the frame before the mechanics check for the hull.

15 hours ago, Ahrimon said:

Of course it won't hold together. It's just a hull, it's multiple pieces ready to be installed on a frame. Starships aren't one giant piece of durasteel on the outside, they're made of multiple sections. So the hull would be built and sitting in the warehouse until the frame gets built.

In the real world it's all done together, but we're not talking the real world. By our FO rules someone could build a frame, an hull, or engines then go on a mission or two and pick up where they left off when they get back. And as a home built ship, I'm cool with that. Just like someone could build body panels for a car, go on vacation and put together the frame when they get back. We're not talking factory line production, but garage production under these rules.

Yes and no. Your Hull needs to fit the frame you are building it for. Sure you can build the hull before the frame within this set of rules. But if you build a hull for a sil 3 ship and the frame becomes sil 2 because you shrink it ... guess what, build a new hull, because the one you have build will not fit. ;-)

On 2018-04-17 at 8:33 AM, SEApocalypse said:

Frame Starfighter 10,000 credits 3 days

Pick Elegant Design, Extra Hardpoint. Increase crew to make it a two-seater, massive 1 and reinforce it. Cost 1 Triumph, 13 Advantages.

(snip)

Single Ion Coil 500 credits 1 day

Fine-Tuned Enhance Power to Deflectors 2x
Enhance Output 2x

Cost 10 Advantages

(snip)

Combat Plating 1500 credits, 8 Days

(snip)

Hardpoints: 2
Night Shadow Coating
1x Manevuering Fins (+2 Handling)
2x Layered Plating
Extra Hardpoint

1 Triumph, 12 Advantages


Assembling: 1 Day, 500 credits
Masterful Construction
Distinctive Style
2x Under Budget


12000 credits, 12 days to build

(snips and emphases in bold mine)

That assembly roll needs no less than 1 Triumph, 9 Advantages

Sure, Hull and Engines are cheap enough for multiple tries, but every attempt to construct a Frame will cost you 10K. Unless rolling a a Triumph and 13 advantages is trivial to you (and it never is, because you can always roll successes instead), that is going to become real expensive real quick.

I'm not going to imply that there aren't wonky things that can happen in this system if the GM allows every option or that elegant design is just plain badly implemented, but your example mostly proves that if you set out to break the system, it will break.

Sure, you can plonk your PC down and start cranking out designs and discarding them for schematics until difficulties hit rock bottom, but I wonder, isn't there anything else this PC should be doing? Like an obligation or a duty ? This is, of course, assuming that someone is bankrolling him. While GMs should definitely let crafting PCs take some "time off" now and then to build stuff, it's a no-brainer to me that letting them have infinite time and infinite money will break any system.

And what in the name of all that is flanneled kind of stats is droid of yours rocking?

On 4/18/2018 at 2:00 PM, Gelanin said:

Has anyone in Europe gotten hold of this book yet from their local game stores ?

I've not seen it available here in Norway yet... still waiting....

No sign in UK. Good ol' Asmodee...

6 hours ago, MrDodger said:

No sign in UK. Good ol' Asmodee...

Yeah, last time they did this was "No Disintegrations", and it was months before it was available. (Its not on the release list for next week...)

On 4/20/2018 at 12:35 AM, penpenpen said:

all that is flanneled kind of stats is droid of yours rocking?

She ain't sharpshooter with 6 ranks of true aim ridiculous, but she needs 3 dice sets to physical do her mechanic checks in one roll. Actually I think she might need now 4 sets, because she was saving some XP for shipwright and there might be some new toys in the tools section of Fully Operational ;-)
So yeah, rolling a triumph every other roll is normal.

Though the triumph from the assembling is not really essential, you are still looking at it from the wrong direction because the crafted result is regardless if the needed triumphs come or not a lot more worth the the credits spend on. Considering the states you reach with even below average rolls ... we are talking her basically a whole magnitude of profit margin.

On 18.4.2018 at 3:00 PM, Gelanin said:

Has anyone in Europe gotten hold of this book yet from their local game stores ?

I've not seen it available here in Norway yet... still waiting....

Neither here in Austria.

I'm still waiting ...

And yet another week goes by...

More bad news

Nope, nothing for the Outer Rim next week either.

Was there maybe a FFG PDF release for international customers that I have missed and we are just not supposed to get this printed book? °_^

I talked to my prefered online dealer (Philibert from France) and they replied that they will get the books as soon as they will arrive in Europe.

Meanwhile I bought DAWN OF REBELLION from an US source for 68 Euros. Ugh. But that book is totally worth it!

Finally. some good news ! Note this is UK, but I think most of Europe is generally around the same time.

And then of course we go through it all again with Cyphers & Masks...