1 hour ago, AngryAlbatross said:The problem I see with Wes and Palob is they only remove 1 focus. Usually when shooting at a mindlink ship it has 2 or more focus tokens ;(
If you have initiative (and range), you could steal Manaroo's focus token before she passes, effectively removing two focuses for the price of one. 
Hard counters to Paratanni? I would recommend using the "look, it's Alex Davy!" strategy.
Basically, point over your opponent's shoulder and shout the above. When he turns to look, pick up his Manaroo and throw it across the other side of the room /out of the window/in the bin etc. Then, when they turn back, act as though nothing happened.
It's a less violent version of the "is that your dice on the floor?" gambit.
Kill Asajj, put Manaroo at 50% and spend the rest of the game flying away and taking slow turns.
2 minutes ago, spacelion said:Kill Asajj, put Manaroo at 50% and spend the rest of the game flying away and taking slow turns.
that's reliant on you actually killing asajj, which is way easier said than done
In Parattani, the weak point is Fenn. Simply put, you need to have a way of removing Fenn from the game on the first pass, and if you do this before he takes a chunk out of your ships, you can win on about a 75% margin.
There are a number of methods of doing this, I'm a fairly big fan of homing missiles, but ultimately your first target should be fenn, then manaroo, then asajj. Parattani thrives on the synergy between the ships, and although asajj is nasty, the 3 dice attack is not as potent a danger as fenn and can on average be expected to eat away 1h or 2h a turn (usually), which is controllable. Latts means asajj is too much of a sponge to take down fast enough before the rest of the list eats you, so I always have found success going after Fenn first.
Examples of ships which will vaporise or cripple Fenn on first pass, or take all the tokens off and survive long enough to let your other ships do the job:
In my experience you really need some burst damage you can unload entirely on Fenn. Once fenn is gone, if you've lost 1 expensive ship and you're in a 3 ship build you're in a lot of trouble. If your positioning was good however and you were able to successfully knock out fenn at the cost of ~10 points worth of munitions you're in a grea tposition for the rest of the game. From this point, manaroo is the next easiest target, and must be taken out next, painbot or otherwise. The important point is with manaroo feeding asajj, asajj is too hard to hit and takes too long, so you have to go for manaroo first, unless they fly poorly.
once you're down to asajj vs probably your last ace, as long as you've got initiative on asajj you're in a good spot. ideally you want to be hugging at r1 to get those crits in, and preferably with a ship that can dodge the mobile arc in a straight chase. Asajj is pretty predictable (fast) but predictable so keep your moves to bank or straight 2s and boost/barrel roll can usually get you out of arc. all you need is one good turn of crits and the game is over.
that's been my experience.
Y'all are way too focused, so to speak, on denying Paratanni's strengths, and not focusing on where it's weak.
Only one ship in the list will have more than one focus token, and that ship will never be Manaru. 4-5 reliable, highly modified reds can burn through a secondary target even on perfect defence rolls. Stress management ruins Ventress's day, and health over agility renders Ketsu useless. And a source or reliable stress limits Fen's maneuverability.
"Epsilon Leader" (19)
Comm Relay (3)
Starkiller Base Pilot (30)
Collision Detector (0)
Emperor Palpatine (8)
Kylo Ren's Shuttle (2)
Starkiller Base Pilot (30)
Electronic Baffle (1)
Recon Specialist (3)
Pattern Analyzer (2)
Weapons Guidance (2)
Total: 100
2 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:Y'all are way too focused, so to speak, on denying Paratanni's strengths, and not focusing on where it's weak.
Only one ship in the list will have more than one focus token, and that ship will never be Manaru. 4-5 reliable, highly modified reds can burn through a secondary target even on perfect defence rolls. Stress management ruins Ventress's day, and health over agility renders Ketsu useless. And a source or reliable stress limits Fen's maneuverability.
"Epsilon Leader" (19)
Comm Relay (3)Starkiller Base Pilot (30)
Collision Detector (0)
Emperor Palpatine (8)
Kylo Ren's Shuttle (2)Starkiller Base Pilot (30)
Electronic Baffle (1)
Recon Specialist (3)
Pattern Analyzer (2)
Weapons Guidance (2)Total: 100
Where are you getting Ketsu in Parattanni?
2 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:OL is amazing against Fenn OR Assaj.
Fenn AND Assaj tohgether should be able to kill her before she can kill any one of them.
True, but if you run with omega and only give one of them shots your golden.
Also WAY too many people don't realize that if you don't kill my omega leader first I basically auto win againat any one or even 2 ships out of parattani left against her. And if you do go for omega, I'll just run and now the rest of my list is alive to hurt you.
Bomb Fenn. Stress the crap out of Assaj. Hard to do both unless you run Rebels.
1 hour ago, spacelion said:Kill Asajj, put Manaroo at 50% and spend the rest of the game flying away and taking slow turns.
Focussing Asajj is the worst way to win
Honestly, I think beating Paratanni probably has more to do with strategy than listbuilding. You need a list capable of beating it, but there aren't really a lot of lists out there that are just good against it. Bomber K-Wings take down Fenn easy, for example, but then how do you deal with Asajj?
You always have to get Fenn off the table at some point; if you can't do that, then you're just hosed, because there's not a whole lot of things that can stand up to him in the end game. That said, it's no good going after him if you're not going to kill him; you really have to be able to set up the perfect killbox to bring him down early. Otherwise, you gotta pray you can bring down Manaroo. Even with one ship down, though, the game's nowhere near over. If Fenn brings someone with him, the Attanni still has a solid chance to win.
1 hour ago, citruscannon said:In Parattani, the weak point is Fenn. Simply put, you need to have a way of removing Fenn from the game on the first pass, and if you do this before he takes a chunk out of your ships, you can win on about a 75% margin.
There are a number of methods of doing this, I'm a fairly big fan of homing missiles, but ultimately your first target should be fenn, then manaroo, then asajj. Parattani thrives on the synergy between the ships, and although asajj is nasty, the 3 dice attack is not as potent a danger as fenn and can on average be expected to eat away 1h or 2h a turn (usually), which is controllable. Latts means asajj is too much of a sponge to take down fast enough before the rest of the list eats you, so I always have found success going after Fenn first.
Examples of ships which will vaporise or cripple Fenn on first pass, or take all the tokens off and survive long enough to let your other ships do the job:
- Phantoms with gunner and fcs and initiative
- Vader with homing missiles and expertise
- snapshot stress rhymer with your favourite deadeye munition on an adjacent ship
In my experience you really need some burst damage you can unload entirely on Fenn. Once fenn is gone, if you've lost 1 expensive ship and you're in a 3 ship build you're in a lot of trouble. If your positioning was good however and you were able to successfully knock out fenn at the cost of ~10 points worth of munitions you're in a grea tposition for the rest of the game. From this point, manaroo is the next easiest target, and must be taken out next, painbot or otherwise. The important point is with manaroo feeding asajj, asajj is too hard to hit and takes too long, so you have to go for manaroo first, unless they fly poorly.
once you're down to asajj vs probably your last ace, as long as you've got initiative on asajj you're in a good spot. ideally you want to be hugging at r1 to get those crits in, and preferably with a ship that can dodge the mobile arc in a straight chase. Asajj is pretty predictable (fast) but predictable so keep your moves to bank or straight 2s and boost/barrel roll can usually get you out of arc. all you need is one good turn of crits and the game is over.
that's been my experience.
I've played against it and lists like it a few times. Always this. The lists I used:
Starkiller base pilot/baffle/palp/hypercomm, Vader/atc/EU/adaptability/title, Duchess/VI/AA/LWF
This list has 2 pilots at PS10 so you just arcdodge Fenn to kill him. Dial in maneuvers that can leave you the options of a flank. Or scream by him and get Manaroo first. The key here is the aces don't really care if they pick up a stress from Asajj, THey can shed it next turn without too much trouble. You also have to be really agressive with the new shuttle after placing it at PS12.
or:
OGP/Palp/Baffle, Jax/ptl/at/stealth, Defender Maarek/Juke/X7
This list is trickier to play as Fenn can arcdodge both, but Maarek and Jax are fast enough to get the other two if a Fenn opportunity doesn't present itself. Fenn doesn't want to be in range 1 of Jax no matter how bad he wants to kill Jax. Either do the other two. You can use that to an advantage.
Kill Fenn first and you'll be fine. The times I lost, Fenn had unbelieveably amazing greens which will happen. If I were taking a "hard counter" in a hangar bay list I'd probably grab either of these. But I also love flying imperials 
OK guys....beyond beer talk, and in somewhat seriousness, has anyone tried a Vader-RAC and Jax build against this list?
The problem with answering the question of the thread, is that Paratanni has no clear weakness and no one can agree on the best way to tackle it.
Winner of the Mustafar open( Chumby) is of the opinion that Asaj is the key, I think he knows what he is talking about, in this very thread there are some very intelligent arguments for killing Fen first, makes sense also.
Hang on someone says Manaroo is the Key.....
its weakness is stress, no it's not( Chumby again) no agreement on this, swarms will take it down( Scum and Villany podcast) Swarms can't beat it( Kessel Run)
So we are looking at a list where even some very experienced players and proponents of it can't agree on any aspect of it.
so taking all that into account, how do you sit down and build a hard counter, I think the simple answer is there isn't one.
I think only another type of toolbox list with equal strengths matched by better flying can beat it. That is the missing part of the equation " good flying" this list does not fly itself, I witnessed the effect at the Yavin open, plenty of Paratanni lists did not make it to day two.
so there is the answer, kind of.....
How about this, send Countdown to keep Fen busy and send the other three after Asaj and fly the S**t out of it
"Countdown" (20) - TIE Striker
Adaptive Ailerons (0)
Maarek Stele (34) - TIE Defender
Veteran Instincts (1), TIE/x7 (-2)
"Wampa" (14) - TIE Fighter
"Backdraft" (32) - TIE/SF Fighter
Veteran Instincts (1), Fire Control System (2), Special Ops Training (0), Lightweight Frame (2)
I hear paratanni is a pretty good counter
Miranda's 5 dice homing missile is a good place to start I think. That's gonna at least burn Asaj's shields down, and Fen is not going to want to be shot by that either.
If you throw in 2 other high PS strikers (Wes for some extra token stripping, Airen with a homing missile and VI, Horton with protons etc) then you can take a shot at either Fen or Asaj (whichever is the best target once the approach is done) and stand a good chance of killing Fen or putting serious hurt on Asaj.
Edited by Bonza8 hours ago, Ashley said:How about this...
..should work fine, so long as you stay away from asteroids...
From my experience stress is a pretty big issue for Parattani.
It's not crippling in the way stressing a PtL ace is, but it forces you to choose between predictability (doing greens) and action economy (one of Parattani's main strengths is generating Focus tokens out of thin air, thus allowing 2/3 ships to do other actions, which they can't if they're stressed).
13 hours ago, SabineKey said:Where are you getting Ketsu in Parattanni?
It mith not be the typical paratani, but I've seen it as a varient list.
1 minute ago, Rakaydos said:It mith not be the typical paratani, but I've seen it as a varient list.
Hmm. Interesting.
11 hours ago, clanofwolves said:OK guys....beyond beer talk, and in somewhat seriousness, has anyone tried a Vader-RAC and Jax build against this list?
I, playing Parattanni, recently faced RAC Hotshot + wingman archetype 4 times on Regional/System Open level. Record is 4:0. Different RAC builds and different wingmans.
The last one was during Yavin Open against Anti-parattanni overload RAC Hotshot, Gunner, Kylo + Carnor Jax and it ended.... 100:0. Block with Manaroo on Carnor, rng2 with TL execution. RAC blinded Asajj once and then was eaten alive during bumpfest.
RAC + wingman is decent archetype but it's no way Parattanni hard counter.
Conversely, a Juke Defender is a better wingman I think. Unless they're stacking 3 focus tokens which is possible but rare, juke should work, and carnor's effect is strong but he's super fragile and extremely vulnerable to stress. He;s not a great choice I don't think.
The hardest part of dealing with parattani is that it has no hard counter/linchpin holding it together. You have to know what to do based on your squad. Different approaches come in based on that. I think the most important thing is to remove a ship ASAP (duh). Some lists can kill Fenn easier, so they should do that. Some lists can kill Asajj quicker, so they should do that.
It's a supremely versatile list with a big decision tree for its pilot to make. Fly your list well, be familiar with your strengths and weaknesses, and force them to make the suboptimal choices.
Also, force Assaj to break her habit of flying in a big, dumb circle with her arc pointed inwards. Draw her towards the corners so that she is forced to either turn in the opposite direction, or spend her action changing her arc rather than evading. This makes her much easier to kill.