Defenders were improved with a title that removes upgrades and provides a bonus.

The general consensus of opinion is that improving e-wings is tricky as Corran is too good.

So what about a title that removes the pilot ability and provides a bonus? e.g. grants either a free system or a free astromech upgrade? Or maybe a points cost towards both a system and astromech?

An example ship for 37 points is

Etahn A'baht : 32
Title : 0
Push the Limit : 3
Advanced Sensors : 0 (title cost)
BB-8 : 2

Would this get any use? How does it compare to a standard PTL Ryad at 36?

Adding a disclaimer that I've not thought this through properly.

The biggest problem with the idea is that is does nothing for generics. The Defender titles work on all Defenders, with an x7 Delta actually seeing some good use.

The idea of giving up a pilot ability for a free upgrade is rather intriguing, but perhaps not as a specific E-Wing fix.

As for the Corran factor of fixing the E-Wing, I think it more comes down to not making his current build stronger, as it is strong on its own. That can be worked around by making a fix that takes up one of Corran's usual slots, like the Astromech slot (no r2) or systems slot (no FCS). If an E-Wing fix made it so you could still fly a competeive Corran, but his whole kit made him fly differently then his usual build, I'd call that a win. (Not saying that the old build should go, just that a fix would lend different strengths).

The basic E-Wing is 3 or 4 points overcosted compared to the B-Wing...and how often do you see a B-Wing? I suppose a free Sensor Jammer would be decent, but at this point in the game, I don't know that it would be quite enough.

I do actually like the idea of getting rid of pilot ability. It makes Etahn pretty meh but adds some variety to Corran; after all, giving up a double tap isn't the end of the world. Still not broken on him, though.

2 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

The biggest problem with the idea is that is does nothing for generics.

Maybe I've not explained myself properly. If you don't have a pilot ability you can still equip the title. You just don't have a pilot ability to remove. This would benefit all e-wings. It would make Corran different rather than the current Corran build stronger.

28 minutes ago, MrParsons said:

Maybe I've not explained myself properly. If you don't have a pilot ability you can still equip the title. You just don't have a pilot ability to remove. This would benefit all e-wings. It would make Corran different rather than the current Corran build stronger.

Okay. That does answer that concern, though it does create an imbalance in cost when comparing generics to named pilots. That can be solved if point values become a factor, like if generics can get a two point upgrade for free while pilots that give up an ability can get like a three point upgrade for free.

Really doesn't fix anything. You'd be better off just limiting the upgrade to ships with a low Pilot Skill similar to the way A-Wing Test Pilot works. The core problem of the ship is still the base cost; giving it a cheaper upgrade doesn't really do a lot to remedy that. The right answer is probably just an E-Wing only astromech slot fix, as that will improve the ship as a whole without really affecting Corran.

Private Nemo:
Corran is tricky in the E wing fix because of his capacity of "I shoot you twice, run far away and regen myself".

Nothing over the top today, but with a brutal tittle fix (cost reduction + extra action), he can go too far.

But precisely because of this, a fix that would include the droid slot (something thay is also thematicaly right) would deprive Corran of his regen capabities, lessening the impact in Corran but not so much in the other E wing pilots.

<<
The E-wing was considered an excellent combination of firepower, maneuverability, speed, and armor, but initial models required the use of the R7-series astromech droid, which was exclusively built for the E-wing.
...
Much of the great cost of the E-wing came from the use of the R7 droid, a much more sophisticated and expensive astromech than the classic R2 and R5 astromechs. Later models of the E-wing starfighters were however able to interface with earlier astromech models, such as an R2 or R5 unit.
>>

So a title like: "E wing only -2pts: If you spend a TL you get a free focus action", would made the R7 and R7-T1 astromechs much better, improving overall the E wing, but if Corran want to use the title, he loose the regen capabiltie that made him so strong...

Of course that is not a real idea. I'm no game designer, so I have no real idea of the implications of such a fix. Is just an example of ways of improve a ship without putting over the top a single pilot.
I suppose the same could be done with the T65 and Biggs.

The Virago Card for the Starviper has a clause that sets a PS level of 4 and above. So why not just exclude Corran with the same mechanic?

"you cannot equip this card if your pilot skill is 8 or higher."

10 minutes ago, ghotio said:

The Virago Card for the Starviper has a clause that sets a PS level of 4 and above. So why not just exclude Corran with the same mechanic?

"you cannot equip this card if your pilot skill is 8 or higher."

Or easiest "you cannot equip this card if you are Corran Horn".

Maybe because it sounds worse.

I don't know why everyone is terrified of making Corran stronger in a game with so many counters to him. Auto-damage is cheap and abundant, plenty of ships are fast enough to chase him down. Add stress, tractor beams and Kylo Ren to the mix. Players should think twice about spending 40-50 points on Corran Horn.

"But he can attack twice!" The masses cry.

Every faction has double-tap options, most of them are more points-efficient than Corran, and all of them have more than two hull. None of them give up their attack the following round.

"But he can regen!" The detractors wail. It's the only option that makes him worth taking. Delete R2-D2, and suddenly Corran (and the E-wing as a whole) would be more scarce than the TIE Punisher.

I think something simple like the Chardaan Refit would be enough to fix the E-wing. It doesn't get used, anyway, so why not remove it to reduce cost? Corran still is going to cost a lot to field using standard load-out, but it makes the lower PS pilots viable.

Anything that goes in a system slot or astromech slot will be the ideal fix for E-wings, i dont think Corran is all that good actually so a minibuff in a title would be fine in my opinion too, in addition to the other card fix.

No because like Biggs whose ability is the only reason to fly X-wings Corran's ability is the only reason to fly E-wings.

Problem with E-wings is not that they are ridiculously priced as the TIE Defenders, but E-wings generics are expensive by necessity. If E-wings get another system slot that can combo with a droid you will see Nerf E-wing threads as much as you now see Nerf Phantoms Fat Han Palp Shuttle Soontir U-boats Dengaroo Defenders Patranni threads.

29 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

No because like Biggs whose ability is the only reason to fly X-wings Corran's ability is the only reason to fly E-wings.

Problem with E-wings is not that they are ridiculously priced as the TIE Defenders, but E-wings generics are expensive by necessity. If E-wings get another system slot that can combo with a droid you will see Nerf E-wing threads as much as you now see Nerf Phantoms Fat Han Palp Shuttle Soontir U-boats Dengaroo Defenders Patranni threads.

You forgot TIE Swarm

I keep thinking the best way to deal with an E-Wing fix is to make it prevent you from taking an Astromech that costs 4 or more. Since R2-D2 is the only Astromech that costs 4 or more, the Corran problem is solved; R5-P9 doesn't get used on Corran in my experience.

19 minutes ago, WingedSpider said:

I keep thinking the best way to deal with an E-Wing fix is to make it prevent you from taking an Astromech that costs 4 or more. Since R2-D2 is the only Astromech that costs 4 or more, the Corran problem is solved; R5-P9 doesn't get used on Corran in my experience.

Or just use the Astromech slot itself.

3 hours ago, jmswood said:

I don't know why everyone is terrified of making Corran stronger in a game with so many counters to him. Auto-damage is cheap and abundant, plenty of ships are fast enough to chase him down. Add stress, tractor beams and Kylo Ren to the mix. Players should think twice about spending 40-50 points on Corran Horn.

"But he can attack twice!" The masses cry.

Every faction has double-tap options, most of them are more points-efficient than Corran, and all of them have more than two hull. None of them give up their attack the following round.

"But he can regen!" The detractors wail. It's the only option that makes him worth taking. Delete R2-D2, and suddenly Corran (and the E-wing as a whole) would be more scarce than the TIE Punisher.

You bring up some good points, and I won't try to counter them. I will say that there is a difficulty where Corran is (roughly) properly balanced, but every other E-Wing is about 4 points below par.

That means if you (hypothetically) give the X1 title to the E-Wing, you'd _still_ only ever see Corran. He'd just say "thank you for the free FCS".

The awesome thing about the X7 title is that it made basically every Defender viable. Doing so put a rather nice cap on the PS wars that had been dying down. In my mind, an ideal E-Wing fix would make the PS1s really efficient, so that it would further drive down the average PS in this game.

5 hours ago, MrParsons said:

Defenders were improved with a title that removes upgrades and provides a bonus.

The general consensus of opinion is that improving e-wings is tricky as Corran is too good.

So what about a title that removes the pilot ability and provides a bonus? e.g. grants either a free system or a free astromech upgrade? Or maybe a points cost towards both a system and astromech?

An example ship for 37 points is

Etahn A'baht : 32
Title : 0
Push the Limit : 3
Advanced Sensors : 0 (title cost)
BB-8 : 2

Would this get any use? How does it compare to a standard PTL Ryad at 36?

Adding a disclaimer that I've not thought this through properly.

This isn't bad, but it does effectively make PS the only difference between pilots, basically making all pilots generic. Granted: in a standard match, Corran is the only E-Wing pilot who's ability matters anyway.

I think this is an interesting start, but I don't know if it's quite there yet.

Title card e-wings only. Cost -2 remove your pilot skill and add a pilot slot you may only have 1 pilot slot. If you have no pilot skill just add a pilot slot. Adds a pilot slot to the generics, lets you keep any unique as he is, or reduce any unique, by 2 points by eliminating his innate skill, but still has the ability to add any of the normal skills available. Also means you still have all of your normal slots available.

On 03/03/2017 at 3:45 PM, MrParsons said:

Corran is too good.

I think you mispelled "Please, help me learn how to focus fire".

Also it is probably rather unlikely that we get more Ewing pilots in the immediate future, the OP's idea would invalide any coming Ewing aces' pilot abilities, shutting off development of the Ewing, if the coming aces aren't really, really good, and thus again a risk of FFG going too far/overshooting.

Yeah, but any interesting astromech for X-wings/Ywings could profit to the E-wing also. So there's some hope left (you know, that stuff Rebellions are built on ^^).

5 hours ago, Giledhil said:

Yeah, but any interesting astromech for X-wings/Ywings could profit to the E-wing also. So there's some hope left (you know, that stuff Rebellions are built on ^^).

Yup. I'm hoping to see some better astromechs soon (maybe in the Rogue One Box everyone likes to daydream about?), both because astromechs could be better in general, and because it's a sneaky back-door fix for T-65s, non-TLT Y's, and E-Wings, which are all things I'd really like to see get a little lovin'.

I've said this before, but if I were king, there'd be an astromech that could strip token stacks. Solve a few problems in one go.

(The only problem with the generic E-Wings in this scenario is that any astromech that can be mounted on any of those platforms will probably still not show up on E-Wings, because the other ships will work just as well without being 3-ish points too expensive. But maybe the designers can be all clever about what the astromechs do, to give us a reason to put one on an E in particular. Synergize with something that can go in the systems slot, maybe.)

1 hour ago, You Look Like A Nail said:

astromech that could strip token stacks

That would be nice

13 hours ago, You Look Like A Nail said:

Yup. I'm hoping to see some better astromechs soon (maybe in the Rogue One Box everyone likes to daydream about?), both because astromechs could be better in general, and because it's a sneaky back-door fix for T-65s, non-TLT Y's, and E-Wings, which are all things I'd really like to see get a little lovin'.

I've said this before, but if I were king, there'd be an astromech that could strip token stacks. Solve a few problems in one go.

Agreed on so many levels.