7 hours ago, WWHSD said:

I wonder if an inherent Extra Munitions and a second Modification slot would give Punishers the edge that they need to see some play.

It could help but really what Punisher needs is an EPT slot so they can take Deadeye.

But yeah a Dead Eye LRS GC missile laden ship could be exactly what can make the Punisher punishing.

Hands-down the Firespray. It's an utter joke of a ship when compared to how (arguably) under-costed other Scum large ships are. I mean, why would you pay 10 more points for a Firespray over a Jumpaster? +1 Attack die (though 180 degree of blindspots) is not worth a comparably terrible maneuver wheel.

Hell, compare a Firespray to the Lancer: the Lancer has the same "rear" arc as the Firespray, except it can move it's rear arc around so isn't nearly as vulnerable as the Firespray. It also has a much better dial, better pilot abilities, a better title, and an extra illicit slot for the same price.

9 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Rebel: B-Wing, not sure there's any reason to spend more than 24pts on one, max.

Imperial: Punisher, I want to love it but it's just *too* poor. Bombers do it better for less

Scum: Kihraxz just seems the most vanilla of vanilla ships. Even in my deliberately junky Scum list the Kihraxz was neither good enough or interesting enough to use.

Still can't believe we are at a point where the B-Wing has to be considered sub-par.

Bombers don't do it better for less, they do it slightly worse for a lot less. There is merit to both named pilots on the Punisher or there would be, if they didn't die being sneezed at. Since he does things before shooting starts, Deathrain can dominate in the (very narrowly defined) right meta, though. Generics are unfixably bad.

If you think about it, generic "ordnance" ships by themselves are kinda useless, cause you're not using them for their intended purpose so they are going to suffer in performance because of it.

In general, however, I think I'm gonna go with the crowd here and say the Khiraxz. The protectorate is just better for the same price. (1 less health, but a much better dial, action bar and an extra evade dice, assuming your luck holds. Plus boost, so Autothrusters.)

All of my Epic ships.

The most expensive and useless ships in the game. There is no real reason to field one in a Epic match if you want to win.

Still, FFG keep kicking the can forward releasing more without actually making them viable.

4 hours ago, Astech said:

Rebels: ... the U-wing. It's such a weak platform in comparison to the lambda for what it does.

How is the Uwing weaker than the Lambda? If rebels had palp Uwings would blot out the sun!

52 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

All of my Epic ships.

The most expensive and useless ships in the game. There is no real reason to field one in a Epic match if you want to win.

Still, FFG keep kicking the can forward releasing more without actually making them viable.

They do make the game a lot more enjoyable, though, and in epic there is no reason you shouldn't communicate with your opponent to create a balanced matchup, because 2 hours of curbstomp aren't enjoyable for anyone involved.

Quote

How is the Uwing weaker than the Lambda? If rebels had palp Uwings would blot out the sun!

Firstly because Rebels don't have Palp, and secondly because the U-wing is 2 points more and has 2 less hitpoints. While it has an additional agility, the focus fire that any support ship inevitably comes under makes that agility far less valuable than 2 hull.

2 minutes ago, Astech said:

Firstly because Rebels don't have Palp, and secondly because the U-wing is 2 points more and has 2 less hitpoints. While it has an additional agility, the focus fire that any support ship inevitably comes under makes that agility far less valuable than 2 hull.

It also has an infinitely better dial and the ability to generate enough focus tokens to make 2 agility matter. Don't think it is a support ship, though, it is not. It may sometimes show some capabilities, but it should always be build to be self-sufficient, which is possible.

14 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

They do make the game a lot more enjoyable, though, and in epic there is no reason you shouldn't communicate with your opponent to create a balanced matchup, because 2 hours of curbstomp aren't enjoyable for anyone involved.

Do you realize that we could say the same about B-Wings, Kihraxz and Quadjumpers too?

In the next game I play, I will go with my 4 B-wings, and if my rival brings Paratanni, or Defenders, I will communicate with my opponent to create a more balanced matchup, because 75 minutes of curbstomp aren't enjoyable for anyone involved.

I know that you're being sarcastic, Azrapse, but if you do want to play a fun list in a casual game, communicating with your opponents so they know what sort of game you're after is exactly what you should do.

Since that is what most epic games should be like, Admiral Deathrain is correct.

3 hours ago, Azrapse said:

Do you realize that we could say the same about B-Wings, Kihraxz and Quadjumpers too?

In the next game I play, I will go with my 4 B-wings, and if my rival brings Paratanni, or Defenders, I will communicate with my opponent to create a more balanced matchup, because 75 minutes of curbstomp aren't enjoyable for anyone involved.

If you aren't in a tournament, I think this is completely acceptable. Say "good game, you win. Now fly something so we can have fun."

Rebels: I find u-wing more usless than b-wing At least it has some potential for future (new system and crew upgrades)

Imperials: TIE Punisher big time

Scum: Khiraxz

11 minutes ago, Gilarius said:

I know that you're being sarcastic, Azrapse, but if you do want to play a fun list in a casual game, communicating with your opponents so they know what sort of game you're after is exactly what you should do.

Since that is what most epic games should be like, Admiral Deathrain is correct.

From where comes that notion that Epic should be casual? There is a set of Epic Tournament rules and everything.

I don't understand why there is a double morale with respect to small/large ships and huge ships. It's okay, and universally agreed, to call the TIE Punisher a bad ship because using it only makes it harder for you to win. However it's not okay to say the same of the CR-90 or the Raider?

I don't buy that. FFG sells a product with these huge ships that isn't well designed for its purpose. And you basically need to agree to play in a certain way with your rival, or with house rules, to be able to use it without feeling like you are wasting your time. That is a bad expansion pack, then.

In the same way people want FFG to fix their $15 X-Wings and their $20 TIE Punishers so that they can use them in the standard game without being a handicap, I'd want them to fix my $90 corvette and my $100 raider so that they are more than table dressing and fluff factor during an epic game.

I know that they already started doing so with Optimized Generators, Automated Protocols, and Ordnance Tubes. But those are too little, too late patches. All three of those cards shouldn't have been modifications, but just appended to the general rules for huge ships. In a time where the standard competitive small/large ship is able to easily stack 2-3 actions/tokens per round, we have these huge ships chocking with too little energy, too few actions, too badly modified attacks, while being too costly in points.

Regular X-Wings, (Aside of biggs)

TIE Adv Prototype (Aside of Inquisitor)

Starvipers

44 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

From where comes that notion that Epic should be casual? There is a set of Epic Tournament rules and everything.

I don't understand why there is a double morale with respect to small/large ships and huge ships. It's okay, and universally agreed, to call the TIE Punisher a bad ship because using it only makes it harder for you to win. However it's not okay to say the same of the CR-90 or the Raider?

I don't buy that. FFG sells a product with these huge ships that isn't well designed for its purpose. And you basically need to agree to play in a certain way with your rival, or with house rules, to be able to use it without feeling like you are wasting your time. That is a bad expansion pack, then.

In the same way people want FFG to fix their $15 X-Wings and their $20 TIE Punishers so that they can use them in the standard game without being a handicap, I'd want them to fix my $90 corvette and my $100 raider so that they are more than table dressing and fluff factor during an epic game.

I know that they already started doing so with Optimized Generators, Automated Protocols, and Ordnance Tubes. But those are too little, too late patches. All three of those cards shouldn't have been modifications, but just appended to the general rules for huge ships. In a time where the standard competitive small/large ship is able to easily stack 2-3 actions/tokens per round, we have these huge ships chocking with too little energy, too few actions, too badly modified attacks, while being too costly in points.

Hard to argue against. I'd say FFG should just release new pilot cards for all huge ships with drastically reduced prices (especially for 2 card ships). Price them so aggressively that you would never consider playing an Epic match without maxing out on Epic Points. Would require 7 new pilot cards to completely recost all of the Epic ships. Pretty easy to do really.

9 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Hands-down the Firespray. It's an utter joke of a ship when compared to how (arguably) under-costed other Scum large ships are. I mean, why would you pay 10 more points for a Firespray over a Jumpaster? +1 Attack die (though 180 degree of blindspots) is not worth a comparably terrible maneuver wheel.

Hell, compare a Firespray to the Lancer: the Lancer has the same "rear" arc as the Firespray, except it can move it's rear arc around so isn't nearly as vulnerable as the Firespray. It also has a much better dial, better pilot abilities, a better title, and an extra illicit slot for the same price.

Same for Imperials and even more so. I can take Vessery /x7 for the same points as a Bounty Hunter. Comeon. In fact I think the Imp FS is easily the worst ship/group of pilots in the game. At least the Punisher has Deathrain who is fairly useful (and a bit underrated if you ask me).

4 minutes ago, Jo Jo said:

Same for Imperials and even more so. I can take Vessery /x7 for the same points as a Bounty Hunter. Comeon. In fact I think the Imp FS is easily the worst ship/group of pilots in the game. At least the Punisher has Deathrain who is fairly useful (and a bit underrated if you ask me).

I think this is the right answer. Most ships have at least 1 pilot that works well. Even the Starviper has Guri who I've seen do good work with mindlink.

The Imperial FS however, is constantly underwhelming. Even to play against its just... meh.

5 minutes ago, Jedi1993 said:

I think this is the right answer. Most ships have at least 1 pilot that works well. Even the Starviper has Guri who I've seen do good work with mindlink.

The Imperial FS however, is constantly underwhelming. Even to play against its just... meh.

I will never understand why the firespray doesn't have a hard 1 right and hard 1 left on its dial. That alone would make a huge difference. I will admit tho I enjoy playing the Boba scum firespray...

2 hours ago, Azrapse said:

From where comes that notion that Epic should be casual? There is a set of Epic Tournament rules and everything.

I don't understand why there is a double morale with respect to small/large ships and huge ships. It's okay, and universally agreed, to call the TIE Punisher a bad ship because using it only makes it harder for you to win. However it's not okay to say the same of the CR-90 or the Raider?

I don't buy that. FFG sells a product with these huge ships that isn't well designed for its purpose. And you basically need to agree to play in a certain way with your rival, or with house rules, to be able to use it without feeling like you are wasting your time. That is a bad expansion pack, then.

In the same way people want FFG to fix their $15 X-Wings and their $20 TIE Punishers so that they can use them in the standard game without being a handicap, I'd want them to fix my $90 corvette and my $100 raider so that they are more than table dressing and fluff factor during an epic game.

I know that they already started doing so with Optimized Generators, Automated Protocols, and Ordnance Tubes. But those are too little, too late patches. All three of those cards shouldn't have been modifications, but just appended to the general rules for huge ships. In a time where the standard competitive small/large ship is able to easily stack 2-3 actions/tokens per round, we have these huge ships chocking with too little energy, too few actions, too badly modified attacks, while being too costly in points.

Epic as a tournament format hasn't taken off at all. I have had the big gun epics do good work, too, they can be very strong versus hull spam with Ghosts, B-Wings, and Decimators, not to mention as a deterrent for snowplow GR-75s and Gonzantis. You will just have to educate your regular opponents to use those by playing a bit of them yourself to good success, then your flagships will be able to contribute that much more.

B-wing, followed closely by t-65 xwing.

This game kinda went downhill after wave 4 or so. It may have become a better tournament game, but it's a lot less interesting to play with two main factions that have largely lost their identities and some of the most iconic OT ships have become obviously outclassed.

I keep seeing Punisher hate, so I must chime in.

Punisher only has one pilot, Redline. Redline only has one configuration, which is 39 pts. FCS/GC/EM+Proton Torp+Concussion Miss (used to be Cluster before the nerfing). The chances of all hits when attacking with this guy are very high. His dial is decent (white 3 turn is key), and he only has issues when he has to K-turn and change TL, but Systems Officer and Targeting Synchronizer now help with that (both work with stressed ships).

The only bomber that goes near to this kind of power is a fully equipped Tomax Bren (GC/EM/Crackshot+8 pts of ordnance) that clocks at 35 pts. His dial is not significantly better than Redline's, he won't take Deadeye because that would waste his ability (and even if he did, he still can't K-turn and focus). Tomax's advantage is that infinite Crackshot is great even with his basic attack. But for 4 pts. more you get +3 shields with Redline. Taking down Redline requires effort. Tomax can be one-shotted.

I can't say Redline is tier-1, but I ran him + Whisper + Zeta Leader in a tournament and did reasonably well. Whereas the Imperial Firespray is utterly unplayable.

This said, I really hope they'll hear everybody else but me and give the Punisher a "fix"!

7 hours ago, Azrapse said:

All of my Epic ships.

The most expensive and useless ships in the game. There is no real reason to field one in a Epic match if you want to win.

Still, FFG keep kicking the can forward releasing more without actually making them viable.

Every Epic ship that comes up seems to have added upgrades that make Epic ships as a whole perform better. With Scum finally getting an Epic ship, I wouldn't be surprised if the tournament rules were changed to require some minimum number of epic points be spent on the squad. Epic could definitely use some attention but it's received a lot of positive changes.

13 minutes ago, Phoenix5454 said:

I will never understand why the firespray doesn't have a hard 1 right and hard 1 left on its dial. That alone would make a huge difference. I will admit tho I enjoy playing the Boba scum firespray...

Scum Boba works well because his ability is way better and he gets access to illicits. Imp Firesprays with Illicits could give them a good niche for Imperial lists.

1 minute ago, Kumagoro said:

I keep seeing Punisher hate, so I must chime in.

Punisher only has one pilot, Redline. Redline only has one configuration, which is 39 pts. FCS/GC/EM+Proton Torp+Concussion Miss (used to be Cluster before the nerfing). The chances of all hits when attacking with this guy are very high. His dial is decent (white 3 turn is key), and he only has issues when he has to K-turn and change TL, but Systems Officer and Targeting Synchronizer now help with that (both work with stressed ships).

The only bomber that goes near to this kind of power is a fully equipped Tomax Bren (GC/EM/Crackshot+8 pts of ordnance) that clocks at 35 pts. His dial is not significantly better than Redline's, he won't take Deadeye because that would waste his ability (and even if he did, he still can't K-turn and focus). Tomax's advantage is that infinite Crackshot is great even with his basic attack. But for 4 pts. more you get +3 shields with Redline. Taking down Redline requires effort. Tomax can be one-shotted.

I can't say Redline is tier-1, but I ran him + Whisper + Zeta Leader in a tournament and did reasonably well. Whereas the Imperial Firespray is utterly unplayable.

That build is incredibly dated. A second set of warheads does absolutely nothing for Redline, because he isn't likely to live through even one round of shooting. One torp or missile with EM (because EM is great value for those few times where you get a second shot) is all that you can afford. FCS doesn't work for the same reason. Thats 6 points to be saved! 6 points less that weight your list down. Even when Redline works, the best he produces now is a full hit 4 dice attack - thats underwhelming if it is all you can do as one third (or even more!) of the list. Gamma Squadron Vets or even just Scimitars have very close to the same damage at half the price.

Deathrain on the other hand can cripple a ship before it gets to shoot at him. He is worth it when he gets rid of otherwise untouchable ships like Soontir Fel. Problem is, Deathfire does his job almost as good at way cheaper and with Soontirlike ships leaving the meta in favour of Defenders, Deathrain will be dead weight more often than game-winner.