10 minutes ago, Draconis Hegemonia said:

The right to complain in public about whatever, is as sacred as the right to be answered "your complaint is unjustified" or "I like, the thing, as it is now more than with your change".

It is so useless to complain about this kind of threads "fix/ban/2º edition/sky is falling", as to complain about those who "do not collaborate to the thread" replying that they do not see the change useful.

Freedom of speech is a b***h, but is a pretty one.

It's what makes the forums worth visiting.

That, and the Imperial Gunboat.

2 hours ago, Smutpedler said:

Simple people who constantly complain about the state of the game.

It appears I'm not the only one. Time for Daggobah Dave to appear and tell us we're all children? Or maybe the OP will accept he posted in a public forum and will get this sort of reaction when half the forum boards are filled with these threads?

How have I not accepted that I have posted in a public forum? In spite of all pathetic trolling on your part, I have up to this point been nothing but diplomatic about your posts. Again, "Nothing needs to be banned, the game is awesome" is a perfectly valid response. Trying to tell others what they can talk about in a public forum is just a baby crying about someone not feeling the same about his favorite crayon color. Get your diaper changed and take a nap and you are welcome back when you can behave like an adult.

The answer is nothing. They should achieve balance through other means. What I don't want to happen is to turn this into competitive MTG where you constantly have to buy new stuff to stay/play in a competitive mode/tourney mode. Telling me to buy a new x wing model, when I already have plenty, just so I can have the newest "tourney legal upgrade cards," leaves more than a bad taste in my mouth. I think they really need to balance either through game mode-missions/faq/releases; probably in that order.

8 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

R7-T1: Not being used a ton, but I've had good success with it on Thane Kyrell in the ARC.

Targeting Astromech: Agreed it's not used much. part of the problem is the best fit for it is probably the x-wing, which is...not good right now. If x-wings or generic e-wings were in a better place, it's possible we might see it more? No way to really know unless/until the ships get fixed. Y-wings don't really do reds very often to make it worthwhile since they have turrets.

Weapons Engineer: Also not seen a lot. Probably most on Shara atm. Some people advocate for it on latts, though I think they're wrong.

Kyle: Accessible, but rarely used outside of dash, or maybe keyan (who's rarely used himself)

K4: Was quite popular for scum crew ships before dengar came out, but still used fairly commonly.

Fleet officer: Adds 2 tokens instead of one, but it uses you're action to do it. So it's essentially giving you a focus (or letting you give a friend a focus), plus a second action for the second focus for yourself or a different friend.

Ezra: Focus to crit, but only changes 1 result, which makes it at best equal to a focus token in overall power

Expertise: Powerful, and could maek good combos, but also has the massive downside of not working if you're stressed. Opponent brought a stresshog, or stress braylen, or asajj (and you don't keep range 3 our out of the mobile arc)? Too bad you wasted 4 points in your list. And better not do red maneuvers too often.

If you want a couple more ship-specific options:

Shadowcaster: For 3 points allows you to assign tractor tokens to enemy ships. BUT requires you to hit them with an attack, and for them to be at range 1-2 specifically in your mobile arc. The tractor token could be taken to be ~equivalent to an action given the spacetug tractor array which allows you to spend an action to automatically tractor an enemy.

Dauntless: Only 2 points, and lets you get a free action, but gives you a stress and only works if you bump someone, meaning you aren't getting an action at all otherwise, so it doesn't give you any extra actions beyond what you would have anyway.

Something almost all of the above have in common: Almost every single one of them can be shut down by your opponent. Any of the ones that require taking an action in the first place (R7T1, weapons engineeer to a degree, fleet officer, recon specialist) can be shut down by stress. Or by blocking. If you bump, you can't take the action. Stress also shuts down targeting astromech since you can't do reds, and expertise since it doesn't work while stressed. Stacked stress, such as a stresshog will shut down all of those same ones, as well as dauntless (can't do free actions while stressed). Shadowcaster can be shut down by staying at range 3 or out of the mobile arc. The only ones you can't really stop are kyle, k4 security droid, and ezra. Kyle only works when the opponent removes a stress, so they have to sink even more points into it if they want to make it work every round (such as PTL dash). K4 is limited to green maneuvers, so you can potentially position yourself to where they need to do non-greens to get shots or get out of arc themselves. Ezra also requires them to keep themselves stressed.

Every single one of these is more limited than the x7 title. There's literally nothing to stop you from doing a 3+ speed maneuver every single round of the game and always get the free evade. And who cares if you get a stack of stress or bump, because you still get you're evade token regardless.

For TIE/v1, I pointed out that it requires you to get the exact 2 tokens it specifies, so you can't barrel roll or focus, where x7 gives you an evade and you can do whatever you want for the other action. And that the target lock is more limited by things like range. And, again, that it's blocked by stress and bumping, while x7 is not. That alone points to it being worth less.

As for it being designed specifically for the defender, sure it was. The argument is just that they overdesigned and undercosted it. Sure, the defender was overcosted. And if they'd just made it cheaper, that would have been fine. If they'd left the price where it was and given it the free evade on fast maneuvers, it probably would have been fine. The problem is doing BOTH. They made it cheaper, bringing it closer in line to what it should have costed in the first place, AND gave it one of the best action-efficiency upgrades in the game. Compare it to the TIE/D title. How often have you seen that in play competitively? I'd be willing to bet if TIE/D had been -2 points and x7 had been 0 points instead of the other way around, x7 would have still been great, but tie/d might have seen more play as well.

As for comparisons to chardaan and heavy scyk: you pointed out that upgrades for general ships dont' always have to follow the same costin grules as mroe general upgrades. So why should chardaan making an a-wing -2 points always mean that the missile slot is 2 points? Especially when chardaan wasn't even a base ugprade with the ship. It's not like ffg decided "we think the a-wing is worth 17 points with a missile, but in case people don't want the missile slot, we'll also let them remove it for 2 points" when they made the ship. The decided it was 2 points and decided the missile slot was where they would put an upgrade to fix it, that doesn't mean the missile slot is worth 2 points on it's own.

And I already pointed out that heavy scyk doesn't just give you an upgrade slot, it gives you a CHOICE of upgrade slots, which is worth more than just a title that says "add a missile slot to your upgrade bar". Compare to the Slave 1 title. It gives you a torpedo slot for free. Are you telling me a missile slot is worth 2 points more than a torpedo slot?

In your recap, you forgot FCS in the list of unblocked cards. I would also say that on something like the Lancer, the k4 security Droid starts to have a more x7 level of movement options at similar speeds. The limiting factor of range on the k4 is more a problem with Target Locks than the crew itself. Plus, your point about possibly needing to do a non-green maneuver with k4 also works with needing to do a slower maneuver with x7.

Backing up to Shadow Caster and Dauntless, the first is paying for a Tractor Beam that actually does damage. Yes there is a limited range, but it is also tied to a mobile firing arc, so it kinda balances out. And since there is only one way and one ship to get a tractor token through an action, I think the comparison to a free evade token is iffy. The Dauntless is an interesting case, but I think also suffers from the "When do you see it?" problem. It looks like it was designed to work with Oicunn specifically, but most Oicunn builds I've seen don't bother with it.

As for v1, I did account for the flexibility of the free evade token in one of my earlier posts when discussing what the x7 title takes.

Alright, skipping ahead to your Slave 1 point. This is a fair point. The 0 cost for a torpedo is telling. But can be partially accounted for by the fact that Slave 1 is unique. Chardaan and Heavy Scyk are generic, therefore spammable. I still stand by the idea that limiting the application can affect price. Now, you turning that stance around against Chardaan and Heavy Scyk has merit. Taken individually, they don't offer much help. But that they have the same value seems like too much of a coincidence to ignore. You bring up the flexibility cost of the Heavy Scyk, to which I'd only really ascribe points to if there was a way to switch slots up between games. If you could alter the Scyk's load out on the fly, somehow, then I see the choice costing. Otherwise, it just looks like they discounted the cannon slot to fit with the torps and missiles.

Alright, going back up to specifically designed section. Sorry for jumping around a lot, but I felt this should go at the end. This is the heart of the conflict. Is the x7 overdesigned and undercosted? My opinion is no. I've laid out some of the more factual arguments already, so I'll conclude this post with one more based on feelings. The x7 title captured my imagination from the get go. The idea of a ship that needed to go fast to live was exciting and rather unique at the time. It solved all of the Defender's problems (being overcosted and having poor action economy) while still making it a different experience then flying most anything else. Since then, I have seen it rise in popularity, till it has become a staple of Imperial lists. And through all that, despite losing to them in various forms (even Commonwealth), I have never lost the feeling that the x7 was a well put together card that was given to a ship that needed it. Anyway, that is my opinion. I understand that people don't agree, but I'm not alone in that opinion. Some that share that opinion might also criticize my math, but not the conclusion. Based on what I have seen and understand of the game, I believe the x7 is doing exactly what it should.

PS: I'm actually really happy that the new format for the forum doesn't keep staking quotes inside of quotes anymore, or this discussion would have been murder to edit or scroll by.

Game is great. Just older.

3 hours ago, Gibbilo said:

The answer is nothing. They should achieve balance through other means.

May I suggest finding a young player with a really high midichlorian count?

8 hours ago, Draconis Hegemonia said:

I see a extensive use of the speed <3 in the X7 Defenders. Only a limited player ignore the red turns of such a ship, be unpredictable and getting out of arc is far far superior to a simple free evade. It's like ignoring reposition with a interceptor, or the turret in a Falcón.

Actually, I consider this movements the "danger zone" of the x7, a ship thats nearly allways do a stright movement is easy countered, a hard one with 6 lives, 3 green dices, evade and focus, but no such a threat . This is why the MkII is so good in a defender.

If you never see a red turn in a X7 Defender, either you have seen few defenders at the table, or you have been very lucky with your enemies, or yourself has been underutilized a brutal ship.

I've seen (and played) plenty of defenders on table, and I didn't say I never see it, but it's not that common either. A lot of the time you can just do a 3 turn for the same effect unless there's rocks or something in the way. And I already pointed out that doing slower maneuver scan catch your opponent by surprise when they're expecting fast ones. But that doesn't change the fact that frequently there's no reason to do a 1-2 speed and lose the free evade instead of going fast nand having it.

2 hours ago, SabineKey said:

In your recap, you forgot FCS in the list of unblocked cards. I would also say that on something like the Lancer, the k4 security Droid starts to have a more x7 level of movement options at similar speeds. The limiting factor of range on the k4 is more a problem with Target Locks than the crew itself. Plus, your point about possibly needing to do a non-green maneuver with k4 also works with needing to do a slower maneuver with x7.

Backing up to Shadow Caster and Dauntless, the first is paying for a Tractor Beam that actually does damage. Yes there is a limited range, but it is also tied to a mobile firing arc, so it kinda balances out. And since there is only one way and one ship to get a tractor token through an action, I think the comparison to a free evade token is iffy. The Dauntless is an interesting case, but I think also suffers from the "When do you see it?" problem. It looks like it was designed to work with Oicunn specifically, but most Oicunn builds I've seen don't bother with it.

As for v1, I did account for the flexibility of the free evade token in one of my earlier posts when discussing what the x7 title takes.

Alright, skipping ahead to your Slave 1 point. This is a fair point. The 0 cost for a torpedo is telling. But can be partially accounted for by the fact that Slave 1 is unique. Chardaan and Heavy Scyk are generic, therefore spammable. I still stand by the idea that limiting the application can affect price. Now, you turning that stance around against Chardaan and Heavy Scyk has merit. Taken individually, they don't offer much help. But that they have the same value seems like too much of a coincidence to ignore. You bring up the flexibility cost of the Heavy Scyk, to which I'd only really ascribe points to if there was a way to switch slots up between games. If you could alter the Scyk's load out on the fly, somehow, then I see the choice costing. Otherwise, it just looks like they discounted the cannon slot to fit with the torps and missiles.

I mostly ignored FCS in the last one because, as I pointed out, it's a lot more limited than the x7 title by not working ont he first shot at a ship or when switching targets. You have to keep going after the same target multiple rounds to get benefit from it. That's frequently possible, but there's also plenty of times it's not, whether they got out of arc, or died, or out of range, or whatever. You'll usually take more non-TLed attacks with FCS than you'll probalby have slow moves on a defender.

I'll agree that the shadowcaster tractoring is an iffier comparison due to the fact athat only the quadjumper with tractor array can do it as an action, but I disagree that you're paying the points for a tractor that actually does damage. You'd be making that same attack regardless of whether you have the title or not (unless it affects your targeting choice I guess), you're simply paying the 3 points to add the tractor effect.

As for dauntless, it's actually seeing a resurgence with Kylo crew nowadays. The fact that Slave 1 is unique could definitely affect the cost, though even if it wasn't, you couldn't have more than 2 ships using the title + torpedoes in a list anyway, and most people don't run it at all, even for free.

For chardaan, I'd be more inclined to agree with it being an indication that missiles are worth 2 points if it was more similar to x7: a title that cost -2 points and removed the missile slot, as opposed to a missile slot upgrade that just reduces the cost of the ship, AND still lets you take the free title that gives you another EPT. And even without being able to switch between games (in a tournament), the choice of what upgrade to have on a given ship is worth something, when every other ship has a set upgrade bar (or title or something that gives a specific slot or slots). And the fact that both are (now) "fix" cards, makes it even harder to gauge relative values. Chardaan is a straight cost fix to the a-wing, while the heavy scyk got a survivability fix for the scyk. Even worse with light scyk coming out now at -2 points, which means you're now paying *4* points extra if you want a missile (and an extra hull). One could argue that the hull in that case makes the missile cost ~1 point (pay 4 points extra, get a 3 point hull upgrade for "free"). Probably less, whe you consider that some of that 2 point discount also comes from the inability to equip mods and the auto-crit on hull damage.

3 hours ago, SabineKey said:

Alright, going back up to specifically designed section. Sorry for jumping around a lot, but I felt this should go at the end. This is the heart of the conflict. Is the x7 overdesigned and undercosted? My opinion is no. I've laid out some of the more factual arguments already, so I'll conclude this post with one more based on feelings. The x7 title captured my imagination from the get go. The idea of a ship that needed to go fast to live was exciting and rather unique at the time. It solved all of the Defender's problems (being overcosted and having poor action economy) while still making it a different experience then flying most anything else. Since then, I have seen it rise in popularity, till it has become a staple of Imperial lists. And through all that, despite losing to them in various forms (even Commonwealth), I have never lost the feeling that the x7 was a well put together card that was given to a ship that needed it. Anyway, that is my opinion. I understand that people don't agree, but I'm not alone in that opinion. Some that share that opinion might also criticize my math, but not the conclusion. Based on what I have seen and understand of the game, I believe the x7 is doing exactly what it should.

The sheer excitement and fact that it's become a staple of imperial lists IS part of why it's a bit too good. It was practically the only imperial ship you saw for a while for veterans, and it's still the top one used by far. And look at the TIE/D title. how often do you see that competitively? If it had been the only title released, it probably would have seen play. instead it doesn't, because it's so out-shown by the survivability AND cost decrease of x7. If you want to fly TIE/D defenders, you're paying a minimum of 3 points over an x7 defender to get a tractor beam double tap. Which does no damage on it's own, just allows more potential damge on other shots, and does nothing if you end up going against a ship like the ghost or decimator. If you want an ion defender, you're paying *5* points more than an x7. If x7 had been 0 and TIE/D had been the -2, I bet we'd have seen a lot more use of TIE/D, since you could have a tractor double tap for 1 point cheaper than the free evade, or an ion double tap for 1 point more, while x7 still would have been quite good.

Look at Regional results for archetypes that have made the cut since the rogue one ships released in december. Top imperial squd that's made the cut is triple defenders (as the #2 total archetype, however their magic works), with 67 lists. Next up? Palp aces, at only 4 squads and the #6 total spot, and still has an x7 defender in it. Down to #11 you have a different palp aces (TIE/sf instead of inquisitor), 5 squads, and still has an x7. Then you hit #12 and the massive 82 commonwealth defenders lists (only paratanni has more, at 99).

The problem with x7 is that it was *too good* as a fix. It pushed out almost every other imperial ship that was previously flown. To be fair, that was assisted by all the anti-ace tech we've gotten making it a lot more dangerous to run soontir. But the fact that it's basically not worth even looking at the other defneder fix included in the same pack. I've literally never even considered flying a TIE/D since the first time I flew x7 because it's just that good. And almost every squad has at least 1 defender is an indication that it's a bit too good. Similar to how people sya the jumpmaster is a bit to cheap/powerful since it's included in pretty much every scum list. It's the combination of reduced cost and unstoppable evades. If the evades didn't work if you bumped, or when stressed, or something like that, it would probably be fine (and I say this as someone who has flown defenders a lot and loves x7).

3 hours ago, SabineKey said:

PS: I'm actually really happy that the new format for the forum doesn't keep staking quotes inside of quotes anymore, or this discussion would have been murder to edit or scroll by.

Totally agree. I would frequently try to delete the old nested quotes if a conversation got long, but it's SO much easier to have it happen automatically. Though it can be more painful for continuing threads when you're replying to a quote, and have to scroll bcak to see exactly what THAT quote was replying to.

On 3/2/2017 at 4:47 AM, Vitalis said:

X7 - ban? Never. It gave Defenders life again. Nerfed to be an action? Yes.

People keep saying this, but all it does is make Ryad scarier, because she can now PTL off of a bump. Yes, stress affects it, but I'd rather not have a Ryad that rams you then can still get a focus/barrel roll.

Just now, Zefirus said:

People keep saying this, but all it does is make Ryad scarier, because she can now PTL off of a bump.

How, exactly? If the x7 evade is nerfed to become a free evade action, then anything that prevents actions would prevent that action. For example, stress, flying over an asteroid, or bumping.

So if Ryad bumps, no evade for her, and definitely no PtL.

2 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

How, exactly? If the x7 evade is nerfed to become a free evade action, then anything that prevents actions would prevent that action. For example, stress, flying over an asteroid, or bumping.

So if Ryad bumps, no evade for her, and definitely no PtL.

They'd get the evade though because blocking doesn't stop free actions not do rocks

8 hours ago, Smutpedler said:

It appears I'm not the only one. Time for Daggobah Dave to appear and tell us we're all children? Or maybe the OP will accept he posted in a public forum and will get this sort of reaction when half the forum boards are filled with these threads?

Then you don't understand how internet forums work. When you show up in a "meta isn't fine, how do we fix it" thread and say "meta is fine, the problem is people who think it could be better" you're actually in the wrong place.

It's clear that a lot of you numnuts didn't read beyond the thread title if you posted something like "whining should be banned hur dur." Half a dozen other people posted the same thing. Aren't you clever!

47 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

I've seen (and played) plenty of defenders on table, and I didn't say I never see it, but it's not that common either. A lot of the time you can just do a 3 turn for the same effect unless there's rocks or something in the way. And I already pointed out that doing slower maneuver scan catch your opponent by surprise when they're expecting fast ones. But that doesn't change the fact that frequently there's no reason to do a 1-2 speed and lose the free evade instead of going fast nand having it.

I mostly ignored FCS in the last one because, as I pointed out, it's a lot more limited than the x7 title by not working ont he first shot at a ship or when switching targets. You have to keep going after the same target multiple rounds to get benefit from it. That's frequently possible, but there's also plenty of times it's not, whether they got out of arc, or died, or out of range, or whatever. You'll usually take more non-TLed attacks with FCS than you'll probalby have slow moves on a defender.

I'll agree that the shadowcaster tractoring is an iffier comparison due to the fact athat only the quadjumper with tractor array can do it as an action, but I disagree that you're paying the points for a tractor that actually does damage. You'd be making that same attack regardless of whether you have the title or not (unless it affects your targeting choice I guess), you're simply paying the 3 points to add the tractor effect.

As for dauntless, it's actually seeing a resurgence with Kylo crew nowadays. The fact that Slave 1 is unique could definitely affect the cost, though even if it wasn't, you couldn't have more than 2 ships using the title + torpedoes in a list anyway, and most people don't run it at all, even for free.

For chardaan, I'd be more inclined to agree with it being an indication that missiles are worth 2 points if it was more similar to x7: a title that cost -2 points and removed the missile slot, as opposed to a missile slot upgrade that just reduces the cost of the ship, AND still lets you take the free title that gives you another EPT. And even without being able to switch between games (in a tournament), the choice of what upgrade to have on a given ship is worth something, when every other ship has a set upgrade bar (or title or something that gives a specific slot or slots). And the fact that both are (now) "fix" cards, makes it even harder to gauge relative values. Chardaan is a straight cost fix to the a-wing, while the heavy scyk got a survivability fix for the scyk. Even worse with light scyk coming out now at -2 points, which means you're now paying *4* points extra if you want a missile (and an extra hull). One could argue that the hull in that case makes the missile cost ~1 point (pay 4 points extra, get a 3 point hull upgrade for "free"). Probably less, whe you consider that some of that 2 point discount also comes from the inability to equip mods and the auto-crit on hull damage.

The sheer excitement and fact that it's become a staple of imperial lists IS part of why it's a bit too good. It was practically the only imperial ship you saw for a while for veterans, and it's still the top one used by far. And look at the TIE/D title. how often do you see that competitively? If it had been the only title released, it probably would have seen play. instead it doesn't, because it's so out-shown by the survivability AND cost decrease of x7. If you want to fly TIE/D defenders, you're paying a minimum of 3 points over an x7 defender to get a tractor beam double tap. Which does no damage on it's own, just allows more potential damge on other shots, and does nothing if you end up going against a ship like the ghost or decimator. If you want an ion defender, you're paying *5* points more than an x7. If x7 had been 0 and TIE/D had been the -2, I bet we'd have seen a lot more use of TIE/D, since you could have a tractor double tap for 1 point cheaper than the free evade, or an ion double tap for 1 point more, while x7 still would have been quite good.

Look at Regional results for archetypes that have made the cut since the rogue one ships released in december. Top imperial squd that's made the cut is triple defenders (as the #2 total archetype, however their magic works), with 67 lists. Next up? Palp aces, at only 4 squads and the #6 total spot, and still has an x7 defender in it. Down to #11 you have a different palp aces (TIE/sf instead of inquisitor), 5 squads, and still has an x7. Then you hit #12 and the massive 82 commonwealth defenders lists (only paratanni has more, at 99).

The problem with x7 is that it was *too good* as a fix. It pushed out almost every other imperial ship that was previously flown. To be fair, that was assisted by all the anti-ace tech we've gotten making it a lot more dangerous to run soontir. But the fact that it's basically not worth even looking at the other defneder fix included in the same pack. I've literally never even considered flying a TIE/D since the first time I flew x7 because it's just that good. And almost every squad has at least 1 defender is an indication that it's a bit too good. Similar to how people sya the jumpmaster is a bit to cheap/powerful since it's included in pretty much every scum list. It's the combination of reduced cost and unstoppable evades. If the evades didn't work if you bumped, or when stressed, or something like that, it would probably be fine (and I say this as someone who has flown defenders a lot and loves x7).

Totally agree. I would frequently try to delete the old nested quotes if a conversation got long, but it's SO much easier to have it happen automatically. Though it can be more painful for continuing threads when you're replying to a quote, and have to scroll bcak to see exactly what THAT quote was replying to.

I think for completeness, FCS should still be part of the list. I really don't see it's limitations any worse than Kyle's, for example.

The Shadow Caster point might be semantics. Either way, you potentially are dealing damage and getting the tractor token. Even if not, due to the ongoing effect of a tractor token, I'd say it out prices an evade.

I hadn't heard about the Dauntless and Kylo working together, but I can see the appeal. It does sound look more of a fringe cash like Kyle, but still good to see the title get a showing.

Amusing side note: While I have seen the Slave 1 title used a bit more lately, it is put on for EM, not an actual torpedo.

See, but the two A-Wing fix cards were accomplishing two different goals. Chardaan was suppose to make the A-Wing cheaper (most likely to encourage more Swarm like lists) while the A-Wing Test Pilot title was made to give the non-Swarm obvious pilot an edge. The x7 didn't have a split purpose. It was just to make the Defender better. So, instead of two cards, the combined it into one, also preventing the TIE/D from taking advantage of a reduced price, which I do believe is the right call. (When you've seen a good TIE/D pilot tractor you on a rock, deal damage, then the second ionizes you, then deals damage, it scars you.)

I still don't get your harping on that the Heavy Scyk was buffed, therefore the original price must be off. Originally, FFG didn't think it was. And their changing it to help the Scyk came after x7, meaning the price valuation could have been the same at the original conception of both titles. I also still don't think the choice costs that much. You still have the opportunity costs of not having the others. I'm not touching the Light Scyk point because it is based on post-buff Heavy, and I'm referring to its pre-buff state.

i have actually seen quite a few TIE/D lists out and about. The real reasons I think we don't see them as much is because a)they need to be built around (similar to Vessery) & b) TIE/D's have some problems with large based ships (ion and tractor tokens having less of an impact on them compared to small base). I've seen them murder their way through store tournaments, including versus their x7 counterparts, and heard of a few doing well at a couple system opens. Disclaimer: The TIE/D players I know are some of the best players I know, so the skill floor is higher than for x7.

Now, on to the old argument that x7 Defenders pushed out other imperial ships. They didn't. Oh, they played a part, but the the majority of the blame is on the anti-ace and auto damage tricks. Most of the big stuff like Sabine, Zuckess, and The Ghost were released before the x7, and were just waiting to be put together with the right list. As these tricks increased, the cost/benefit ratio of running traditional Aces went down. Three health ships were becoming more and more difficult to keep alive. So, they changed over to x7s because they had the beef to survive. All the Imperial players I know prefer the flying style offered by an Interceptor or a TAP, but they see the auto turret ghosts and the bomber Mirandas, and reach for the ship with more health. (Not to say they despise Defenders.) Even if x7 cost 0 points instead of -2, it would still be used like it is today because Imp players need something that can survive running over a bomb or having it's token messed with. Not because the x7 effect is undercosted.

1 hour ago, VanderLegion said:

Totally agree. I would frequently try to delete the old nested quotes if a conversation got long, but it's SO much easier to have it happen automatically. Though it can be more painful for continuing threads when you're replying to a quote, and have to scroll bcak to see exactly what THAT quote was replying to.

Heh, yeah, well, I'm on a mobile device, so scrolling back up to see what was said was in my future no matter what.

Finally getting around to answering the question of the thread:

IMO, right now, there's very little that needs actual nerfing. If I could choose, I would change:

Zuckuss - Erratum: Prepend "If you are not stressed ... "

Mindlink - Erratum: "Each time you are assigned a focus or stress token, one other friendly ship with Attanni Mindlink, without that type of token, must also be assigned the same type of token."

Just becauseI like the idea, I wouldn't mind seeing:

Palpatine - Erratum: "Once per round, you may change a friendly ship's die result to any other die result, if the friendly ship is beyond Range 3. That die result cannot be modified again."

TIE/x7 - Erratum: Change to take effect on a 4+ speed maneuver.

I'm reserving judgment on I'll Show You the Dark Side.

Bans are never the answer to game balance issues. They're not actually an answer at all. They're just shoddy patch jobs, which do not deal with the actual problem.

If something is too strong/weak, it should be changed. Not just banned or deleted. Thats like saying the solution to a broken finger is to cut it off.

18 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

How much would you pay for the X7 title if you could put it on other ships? Three points? Would be a bargain at that price. (For any ship with a similar dial.) I think four points would be fair.

I think the X7 title should have just added evade to the action bar. The title lowers the cost of the ship and makes it nearly immune to bumping. You can't keep undercutting basic mechanics without mucking things up. (Dengaroo and stress being another example)

Do I have to pretend to think about whether that would an auto-include?

And can somebody maybe make a big poster of "You can't keep undercutting basic mechanics without mucking things up" for the design office?

26 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I think for completeness, FCS should still be part of the list. I really don't see it's limitations any worse than Kyle's, for example.

The Shadow Caster point might be semantics. Either way, you potentially are dealing damage and getting the tractor token. Even if not, due to the ongoing effect of a tractor token, I'd say it out prices an evade.

I hadn't heard about the Dauntless and Kylo working together, but I can see the appeal. It does sound look more of a fringe cash like Kyle, but still good to see the title get a showing.

One could argue that the "fringe" upgrades like kyle are more similar to upgrades designed for specific ships than general ones (since kyle only really sees use on a single ship) :P. Dauntless with kylo is great, cause you can bump one ship, kylo another, and now 2 of their ships can't shoot your decimator. If they only HAVE 2 ships...

You can argue that shadow caster is semantics, but you're doing the damage regardless of whether you have hte title or not. It doesn't affect whether your attack does damage, or how much, it just adds the token. The tractor action being quadjumper only from earlier I'll accept as a possible ocunter argument, but doing damage with the shadowcaster doesn't really apply. It's could actually be argued its WORSE than the tractor array action because you have to hit with an attack to apply it. So if you miss it doesn't work, and you don't get tractor for that attack. Tractor array is before the combat phase, so it applies to EVERY attack on the target. And tractor has a potential ongoing effect (depends how many ships have shots at it, and at least 1 has already fired if you're getting it from the Shadowcaster title), but the evade token also can affect your opponents target choice. If they choose to attack a different ship that doesn't have an evade, that just adds to the defenders survivability (at the potential cost of whatever other ship).

30 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Amusing side note: While I have seen the Slave 1 title used a bit more lately, it is put on for EM, not an actual torpedo.

My biggest beef is that you have to have the Slave I title to get the torpedo slot, but you have to have the Andrasta title if you want more than 1 bomb slot. So you either have to pick a single type of bomb with extra munitions, or multiple types of bombs, but only 1 of each. you can get a second of one, but it requires paying the full price again. Emon would be SO much btter if you could have a couple different bombs AND extra munitions

32 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

See, but the two A-Wing fix cards were accomplishing two different goals. Chardaan was suppose to make the A-Wing cheaper (most likely to encourage more Swarm like lists) while the A-Wing Test Pilot title was made to give the non-Swarm obvious pilot an edge. The x7 didn't have a split purpose. It was just to make the Defender better. So, instead of two cards, the combined it into one, also preventing the TIE/D from taking advantage of a reduced price, which I do believe is the right call. (When you've seen a good TIE/D pilot tractor you on a rock, deal damage, then the second ionizes you, then deals damage, it scars you.)

I still don't get your harping on that the Heavy Scyk was buffed, therefore the original price must be off. Originally, FFG didn't think it was. And their changing it to help the Scyk came after x7, meaning the price valuation could have been the same at the original conception of both titles. I also still don't think the choice costs that much. You still have the opportunity costs of not having the others. I'm not touching the Light Scyk point because it is based on post-buff Heavy, and I'm referring to its pre-buff state.

Chardaan isn't only used for swarms, it's also used for a cheap blocker, or even on the aces occasionally (though they more often have prockets). And a-wing test pilot is used just as much on greens as on anything else, and that frequently in swarms. The only time you see chardaan without test pilot is on a ps1 blocker. I'll agree x7 definitely made the defender better

Theres a lot of problems with comparing heavy scyk for the missile cost. First is that we *don't know* why exactly it was made 2 points. You can argue that it's the cost of adding one of the slots, I can argue that part of the cost is the choice of slots, but we have no way of knowing the designers intent. Another problem is that *Alex Davy* has said the scyk was a problem from the start. he's said in interviews that the untitled scyk probably should have been about a point cheaper and that the heavy scyk title should have added a hull point (exactly the fix they gave it), which means the designer himself thinks it's not worth 2 points, regardless of how it was costed originally. Just becaues they thought whent hey released something that it should cost x amount doesn't mean they were right, and that other things have to use the same costing later. The fact that it was deemed later to NOT be worth the 2 points as-is is an arguement against the missile slot being worth those 2 points. You can't use pre-change numbers from something that *wasn't worth* the pre-change cost. Same applies to the chardaan refit. We can't know that it's -2 because that's what th emissile slot is worth compared to simply being the slot they decided to use to get the points reduction the whole ship needed vs a single slot.

41 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

i have actually seen quite a few TIE/D lists out and about. The real reasons I think we don't see them as much is because a)they need to be built around (similar to Vessery) & b) TIE/D's have some problems with large based ships (ion and tractor tokens having less of an impact on them compared to small base). I've seen them murder their way through store tournaments, including versus their x7 counterparts, and heard of a few doing well at a couple system opens. Disclaimer: The TIE/D players I know are some of the best players I know, so the skill floor is higher than for x7.

I'm not surprised TIE/Ds can do well in store tournaments, they aren't BAD, just not as good as x7. But if you look at meta-wing for reuslts after the cut in tournaments since the rogue 1 release, x7 has been taken in 517 squadrons at 135 tournaments. TIE/D has been taken 94 times at 58 tournaments. So less than a fifth as many uses at ~42% of teh number of tournaments, and a lower success rate at the tournaments they AHVE been at. If you bump up to regionals, you get 314 x7 vs only 45 /d. For system opens so far I see 24 x7 and 4 /D. So it's there, but its WAY less common than x7.

48 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Now, on to the old argument that x7 Defenders pushed out other imperial ships. They didn't. Oh, they played a part, but the the majority of the blame is on the anti-ace and auto damage tricks. Most of the big stuff like Sabine, Zuckess, and The Ghost were released before the x7, and were just waiting to be put together with the right list. As these tricks increased, the cost/benefit ratio of running traditional Aces went down. Three health ships were becoming more and more difficult to keep alive. So, they changed over to x7s because they had the beef to survive. All the Imperial players I know prefer the flying style offered by an Interceptor or a TAP, but they see the auto turret ghosts and the bomber Mirandas, and reach for the ship with more health. (Not to say they despise Defenders.) Even if x7 cost 0 points instead of -2, it would still be used like it is today because Imp players need something that can survive running over a bomb or having it's token messed with. Not because the x7 effect is undercosted.

Aces were still run a lot right up until veterans released, and then x7 took over pretty much immediately. If you look at the month after Vets released, k-wing bombers weren't meta yet. Autoblsater ghosts have never been hugely popular, and aces players I talked to never seemed worried about it. Zuckuss was around on dengaroo. But if more beef was all people wanted, there's still hsips like the advanced (with only 1 less hp than the defender), tie/d, tie/sf nowadays (which say little play competitively on release, though it seems to be picking up more with lightweight frame). The TIE bomber got a "fix" update in the same pack as the defender and has seen little play as well.

I completely agree that x7 defenders would still be flown if they were 2 points more, but they might be a tad less prevalent as the overwhelmingly most common imperial ship in the meta. I think TIE/Ds would be seen more often if it'd had the -2 instead of x7. And the common defender archetypes wouldn't work as-is if it was 2 points more for x7. No PTL ryad with juke vessery and a palp shuttle or a delta. No triple crack glaives. Having to account for 2-6 extra points in a list definitely makes a differnece on list building choices.

3 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

How, exactly? If the x7 evade is nerfed to become a free evade action, then anything that prevents actions would prevent that action. For example, stress, flying over an asteroid, or bumping.

So if Ryad bumps, no evade for her, and definitely no PtL.

Bumps don't stop free actions. They only stop the perform action step. A bumping defender will still get their evade, even if it's a free action. The same applies to rocks. If Ryad barrels through a rock, she gets that free evade action, then pushes to get her focus too, because rocks only affect the perform action step.

If you want to stop the evade on bumping, without enabling PTL and other action-enabled effects, you need to use " ... if the ship's base does not overlap an obstacle or ship after executing the maneuver." I suspect this is how any fix will come down.

Personally, I'd prefer it to stay as it is, but apply only on a 4+ speed maneuver.

2 hours ago, SabineKey said:

I still don't get your harping on that the Heavy Scyk was buffed, therefore the original price must be off. Originally, FFG didn't think it was. And their changing it to help the Scyk came after x7, meaning the price valuation could have been the same at the original conception of both titles.

I've never understood how anyone at FFG thought the pricing on the Scyk was okay. There was only a point of difference between the PS1 A-Wings and the PS1 Heavy Scyk and you paid the same amount for the PS3 Green Squad as you paid for the PS5 Heavy Scyk. The Scyk was released after Chardaan Refit and A-Wing Test Pilot, so FFG had to know that they had been way off with the price of the A-Wings. Heavy Scyk getting the errata for the extra point of hull puts them at about parity with the A-Wing (before refit and prototype were released). Their only saving grace is that they are able to take a cannon instead of the missile that the A-Wing is stuck with and that they have access to Atanni Mindlink. I'm really hoping for a cool Scyk (or Scum small ship only) modification to be in the C-ROC.

The only fix that this game really needs is quite imposible. We should fix our minds. Talking from a non competitive perspective.

First this was a simple game to enjoy the Star Wars space battles on our tables. Beer and snacks. Easy game mechanics to allow everybody to play and take fun.

Then it growed and growed and money involved in prizes was higher and personal egos bigger and bigger.

And no more Luke and Keyan and Night Beast and Vader. Paratanni and Triple DS and U Bootes...

This is a super simple game. Fix the data that you agree with your opponent are not OK. Create your own upgrades and pilots. Write Scenarios.

X Wing should be about the superb minis we buy. And collect. I have enought problems with my work, my health and the like. I play to have fun.

I'd like to ban people quoting a giant post just to reply to it. We have an "@usernamehere" function for that

2 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Mindlink - Erratum: "Each time you are assigned a focus or stress token, one other friendly ship with Attanni Mindlink, without that type of token, must also be assigned the same type of token."

Wouldn't Mindlink still function exactly the same with this erratum? Tansarii Point Veteran A focuses - a focus token is now assigned to one other friendly ship, Tansarii Point Veteran B. Veteran B has now been assigned a focus token, so his Mindlink triggers, allowing him to assign a focus token to one other ship, Tansarii Point Veteran C. And so on.

2 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

One could argue that the "fringe" upgrades like kyle are more similar to upgrades designed for specific ships than general ones (since kyle only really sees use on a single ship) :P. Dauntless with kylo is great, cause you can bump one ship, kylo another, and now 2 of their ships can't shoot your decimator. If they only HAVE 2 ships...

You can argue that shadow caster is semantics, but you're doing the damage regardless of whether you have hte title or not. It doesn't affect whether your attack does damage, or how much, it just adds the token. The tractor action being quadjumper only from earlier I'll accept as a possible ocunter argument, but doing damage with the shadowcaster doesn't really apply. It's could actually be argued its WORSE than the tractor array action because you have to hit with an attack to apply it. So if you miss it doesn't work, and you don't get tractor for that attack. Tractor array is before the combat phase, so it applies to EVERY attack on the target. And tractor has a potential ongoing effect (depends how many ships have shots at it, and at least 1 has already fired if you're getting it from the Shadowcaster title), but the evade token also can affect your opponents target choice. If they choose to attack a different ship that doesn't have an evade, that just adds to the defenders survivability (at the potential cost of whatever other ship).

My biggest beef is that you have to have the Slave I title to get the torpedo slot, but you have to have the Andrasta title if you want more than 1 bomb slot. So you either have to pick a single type of bomb with extra munitions, or multiple types of bombs, but only 1 of each. you can get a second of one, but it requires paying the full price again. Emon would be SO much btter if you could have a couple different bombs AND extra munitions

Chardaan isn't only used for swarms, it's also used for a cheap blocker, or even on the aces occasionally (though they more often have prockets). And a-wing test pilot is used just as much on greens as on anything else, and that frequently in swarms. The only time you see chardaan without test pilot is on a ps1 blocker. I'll agree x7 definitely made the defender better

Theres a lot of problems with comparing heavy scyk for the missile cost. First is that we *don't know* why exactly it was made 2 points. You can argue that it's the cost of adding one of the slots, I can argue that part of the cost is the choice of slots, but we have no way of knowing the designers intent. Another problem is that *Alex Davy* has said the scyk was a problem from the start. he's said in interviews that the untitled scyk probably should have been about a point cheaper and that the heavy scyk title should have added a hull point (exactly the fix they gave it), which means the designer himself thinks it's not worth 2 points, regardless of how it was costed originally. Just becaues they thought whent hey released something that it should cost x amount doesn't mean they were right, and that other things have to use the same costing later. The fact that it was deemed later to NOT be worth the 2 points as-is is an arguement against the missile slot being worth those 2 points. You can't use pre-change numbers from something that *wasn't worth* the pre-change cost. Same applies to the chardaan refit. We can't know that it's -2 because that's what th emissile slot is worth compared to simply being the slot they decided to use to get the points reduction the whole ship needed vs a single slot.

I'm not surprised TIE/Ds can do well in store tournaments, they aren't BAD, just not as good as x7. But if you look at meta-wing for reuslts after the cut in tournaments since the rogue 1 release, x7 has been taken in 517 squadrons at 135 tournaments. TIE/D has been taken 94 times at 58 tournaments. So less than a fifth as many uses at ~42% of teh number of tournaments, and a lower success rate at the tournaments they AHVE been at. If you bump up to regionals, you get 314 x7 vs only 45 /d. For system opens so far I see 24 x7 and 4 /D. So it's there, but its WAY less common than x7.

Aces were still run a lot right up until veterans released, and then x7 took over pretty much immediately. If you look at the month after Vets released, k-wing bombers weren't meta yet. Autoblsater ghosts have never been hugely popular, and aces players I talked to never seemed worried about it. Zuckuss was around on dengaroo. But if more beef was all people wanted, there's still hsips like the advanced (with only 1 less hp than the defender), tie/d, tie/sf nowadays (which say little play competitively on release, though it seems to be picking up more with lightweight frame). The TIE bomber got a "fix" update in the same pack as the defender and has seen little play as well.

I completely agree that x7 defenders would still be flown if they were 2 points more, but they might be a tad less prevalent as the overwhelmingly most common imperial ship in the meta. I think TIE/Ds would be seen more often if it'd had the -2 instead of x7. And the common defender archetypes wouldn't work as-is if it was 2 points more for x7. No PTL ryad with juke vessery and a palp shuttle or a delta. No triple crack glaives. Having to account for 2-6 extra points in a list definitely makes a differnece on list building choices.

See, I classify fringe cases in my mind the same way as the "When do you see it?" Classification. It's all about whether the benefit is perceived to be worth the cost. Dauntless is now considered worth the cost because people want to keep using Kylo. I'll admit that since the Dauntless can only go on one ship, it has less going for it, but then we have Kyle. Kyle can go on any Rebel ship with a crew slot, but we only really see him consistently on one, and even then you see Kanan in that slot about as much. That says to me the benefit he provides isn't considered worth his cost by most, both point wise and in opportunity. If he was less points, would he be used more? Maybe. But when you compare that to a crew like Dengar, which costs the same and sees more use, you get the feeling that maybe Kyle is overpriced.

The needing to hit part of the Shadow Caster title is part of the reason why I first compared it to the Tractor Beam cannon. The action is better for snagging someone, but is costed lower due to the delivery system. The Shadow Caster Title is on a ship that is proven not to need it, but provides a tractor token without sacrificing firepower or even an action. And if you set up your firing order right, you can now have the rest of your team firing after the Lancer on a ship with one less green die. You are right about the psychology effect the evade can have on people, but I've seen it also work the other way. The enemies see the x7, all guns turn towards it. And that free evade only helps once in a firing round. Yes, the Defender has 3 AGI naturally and might not even have to spend the evade, but that just means the Evade did nothing for you. The tractor token, on the other hand, provides an easier target for anyone shooting that round after it is placed.

Yeah, Emon's split decision between titles is unfortunate. If he could equip both, do you think he would see more use?

True on Green Swarms, but that was after the right EPTs came out (what was it, first Crackshot and Adaptability, now it's Snap Shot and Juke?). But, the traditional ship of a swarm build is the cheapest possible. For a Refit A-Wing, that's the Prototype Pilot, which is not allowed to take the title due to it being PS 1. I didn't mention blockers, which was an unfortunate oversight on my part. I guess I didn't mention them because in my mind, a Swarm ship and a blocker (except for a few special pilot exceptions) come from the same ship/pilot pool.

Here we go. Words directly from one of the designers. Based on this, I will concede that the Heavy Scyk is disqualified as corroborating evidence. There is an alternate argument to be made linking Chardaan and the Light Scyk title, but that leads up back to the "is a free evade worth 2 points" part of the debate, so I'd rather spend time there.

The disparaging amounts of TIE/D's and x7's I feel is explained in my previous post. TIE/D's are harder to use and require specific combos to work effectively. When given the option, most people are gonna take simple over complex, especially at premier events (wait, I may be using the wrong classification). Anyway, I don't see x7 as better than TIE/D, but it does fit a role that takes less to set up.

Yeah, we saw a sudden shift to Defenders after Imp Vets came out. It was the new hotness and everyone wanted to try them out. But then came lists like triple K-Wings and it became less and less worthwhile to return to older Aces. They might not have been out in force at first, but people saw the first few lists that did well and ran with it. Again, I'm getting most of this from Imperial Players I know. As for the other ships you mentioned that supply beef for imperials, they have their own problems. TIE Advanced: not enough damage out put, and the ATC cost on actions means that only really Vader saw use, but the threat of TLT's make him iffy. TIE/D: Explained before. TIE/sf: I still feel like it is overcoming being pronounced DOA before it's release. But now is now gaining steam, like you said, so we'll have to wait and see where it ends up. TIE Bomber: I think the bomber doesn't see a lot of use because the Empire doesn't have something like Sabine for its bombs. I really feel Sabine is the primary reason why Triple Ks work. That plus no Turret, slam, and less health, it's not seen to be as effective. Which is a shame, because for 26 points, you can have a fun and effective Deathfire to mess up your opponent's day.

As for your last point, perhaps. But I think the more likely outcome would have been less Imperial teams seen. With less viable options, the Empire would start be pushed out of the meta. Something would come along later to fix it, but instead, we already had something to keep Imps in the mix.

35 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

I've never understood how anyone at FFG thought the pricing on the Scyk was okay. There was only a point of difference between the PS1 A-Wings and the PS1 Heavy Scyk and you paid the same amount for the PS3 Green Squad as you paid for the PS5 Heavy Scyk. The Scyk was released after Chardaan Refit and A-Wing Test Pilot, so FFG had to know that they had been way off with the price of the A-Wings. Heavy Scyk getting the errata for the extra point of hull puts them at about parity with the A-Wing (before refit and prototype were released). Their only saving grace is that they are able to take a cannon instead of the missile that the A-Wing is stuck with and that they have access to Atanni Mindlink. I'm really hoping for a cool Scyk (or Scum small ship only) modification to be in the C-ROC.

Yeah, both the Scyk and the Starviper came out of wave 6 rather poorly. I'm betting the new cannon from the C-ROC is designed for the Heavy title. And there's still a stack of 5 of the same card later in the fan, so maybe that can be the scum small ship only mod needed.

16 minutes ago, FirstOrderProblems said:

Wouldn't Mindlink still function exactly the same with this erratum? Tansarii Point Veteran A focuses - a focus token is now assigned to one other friendly ship, Tansarii Point Veteran B. Veteran B has now been assigned a focus token, so his Mindlink triggers, allowing him to assign a focus token to one other ship, Tansarii Point Veteran C. And so on.

It's not exactly the same, but yeah, good point. Hmmm.

Mindlink - Erratum: "When you take the focus action, or are assigned a stress token, one other friendly ship with Attanni Mindlink, without that type of token, must also be assigned the same type of token."

23 hours ago, FirstOrderProblems said:

A free (conditional) evade every round probably weighs in between 4-5 points worth of value. I'm basing this number on the prices of similar effects already in-game: R2D2 (probably undercosted) offers a very similar effect for 4 points.

The value of R2D2 is very much dependant on the dial of the ship, specifically how many and what speed of Green maneuvers the ship has.

There's a reason we never see R2D2 on a Y-Wing, and why T-65s prefer R5-P9. But if you could assign R2D2 to an A-Wing, you'd end up with a ship that would basically never have to make a suboptimal manuver for the shield regen. It might actually be broken on an Aggressor. And let's all have a horrified laugh at the idea of R2D2 on a Mrk1 Engine Countess Ryad!

So yes, R2D2: good, but probably correctly priced given the variable nature of the value the upgrade provides.