1 minute ago, WWHSD said:

The evade token isn't always the equivalent to a point of health. Weapons that cancel results on hit (like TLT) or do damage without requiring defense dice to be rolled make evade tokens less effective than health.

True, but conversely abilities that trigger on hits are better against regen than evade and probably more common (Ion, ISYTDS) so that cuts both ways.

1 hour ago, SabineKey said:

Let's take an alternate direction to view this from. The Heavy Scyk title (pre-buff) gives a either a missle, torpedo, or cannon slot for 2 points. This matches the Chardaan Refit's negative cost to remove a missle slot. So, that means if we remove the evade part of the x7 title, it should cost -4. See? The x7 gives up 4 points of slots for the benefits it enjoys, plus the opportunity cost of using the title slot, and the speed requirement. Where as the A-wing only has to give up a third of that for half the benefits.

The counterproductive part of this is that you are only saying I'm wrong, but you aren't touching my formula. So it's on you. Why is my formula wrong? Are you saying a cannon slot is worthless? That opportunity costs doesn't exist. You aren't countering my points, just trying to bury them in surface points without seeing how they strengthen my argument.

I think you're making a lot of assumptions with your formula. You're assuming that a missile slot is worth 2 points because that's what Chardaan takes away. I disagree; I believe that Chardaan was intended to fix the base cost of the A-Wing platform for a slight tradeoff - not be a 1-for-1 trade of missile slot for points.

A free (conditional) evade every round probably weighs in between 4-5 points worth of value. I'm basing this number on the prices of similar effects already in-game: R2D2 (probably undercosted) offers a very similar effect for 4 points. PTL is worse at this effect but only costs 3. Looking at some of the weirder stuff like Fleet Officer and Lando (crew), we can see that they also generate a free token with a side effect for 3 points.

With x/7 costed at -2, that creates something like a 6 point swing. I'd guess the cannon and missile slot together account for at most just over 1-1.5 pts. I really don't think secondary weapon slots cost all that much. So... x/7 is pretty good.

x/7 is good but it's meant to fix a messed up ship for vishnu's sake. Some of these point are ridiculous (3X shield upgrade value?). The ship was too expensive, and even now, the only really good pilot ability is Ryad's.

Guaranteed evade? So what? That's if and only if it does a 3+ speed move. Makes defenders predictable. Harder to hit? Yes, but not impossible. You can't block them? So what? Make it so they can't go 3 or faster to get their shot. Ion them. x/7's mean you need different strategies.

If the imps had mindlink or manaroo that would be bad, but they don't.

1 hour ago, SabineKey said:

Yeah, the "disagree" flag was a weird reference to a penalty flag. It was something that popped into my head at time of writing and I ran with it. Not one of my best made up terms.

So, you are right on the surface. The Chardaan Refit does do less then x7. But you keep forgetting or ignoring the fact that the x7 title takes more from the Defender then Chardaan does from the A-Wing. Don't bring in the point system until you consider what affects the price.

Let's take an alternate direction to view this from. The Heavy Scyk title (pre-buff) gives a either a missle, torpedo, or cannon slot for 2 points. This matches the Chardaan Refit's negative cost to remove a missle slot. So, that means if we remove the evade part of the x7 title, it should cost -4. See? The x7 gives up 4 points of slots for the benefits it enjoys, plus the opportunity cost of using the title slot, and the speed requirement. Where as the A-wing only has to give up a third of that for half the benefits.

The counterproductive part of this is that you are only saying I'm wrong, but you aren't touching my formula. So it's on you. Why is my formula wrong? Are you saying a cannon slot is worthless? That opportunity costs doesn't exist. You aren't countering my points, just trying to bury them in surface points without seeing how they strengthen my argument.

12 minutes ago, FirstOrderProblems said:

I think you're making a lot of assumptions with your formula. You're assuming that a missile slot is worth 2 points because that's what Chardaan takes away. I disagree; I believe that Chardaan was intended to fix the base cost of the A-Wing platform for a slight tradeoff - not be a 1-for-1 trade of missile slot for points.

A free (conditional) evade every round probably weighs in between 4-5 points worth of value. I'm basing this number on the prices of similar effects already in-game: R2D2 (probably undercosted) offers a very similar effect for 4 points. PTL is worse at this effect but only costs 3. Looking at some of the weirder stuff like Fleet Officer and Lando (crew), we can see that they also generate a free token with a side effect for 3 points.

With x/7 costed at -2, that creates something like a 6 point swing. I'd guess the cannon and missile slot together account for at most just over 1-1.5 pts. I really don't think secondary weapon slots cost all that much. So... x/7 is pretty good.

I agree with FirstOrderProblems here. The Chardaan refit isn't saying the missile slot is worth 2 points. It's saying the a-wing is ~2 points overcosted and here's how we're going to fix that. Similarly, you took the pre-buff heavy-scyk title to say that a missile or cannon is worth 2 points, except they DID buff it because it wasn't actually worth the 2 points. Now it add's a hull upgrade as well, which could argue that the missile or cannon slot isn't worth costing ANY extra, and the scyk was overcosted by a point in addition to that since they essentially get a hull upgrade for 1 point cheaper AND get a free upgrade slot.

And a free evade every round is worth a minimum of 3 points. That's from the fact that most free action upgrades cost at least that (PTL is 3 points + stress. EI is 3 points + stress. Predator and dengar are 3 points for 1-2 rerolls, basically a TL depending on the roll, etc). And those all have downsides. PTL and EI stress you, predator and dengar reroll less potential dice than a Target Lock. The only "downside" of tie/x7 is that you ahve to do a 3+ speed maneuver. Given that the only turns are speed 3, the kturn is speed 4, that's rarely a problem. And can actualy even be a benefit because it can catch opponents quite by surprise when you actually do a 1-2 speed maneuver.

Game is amazing. Nothing to ban or rotate. Worst idea ever. Maybe we could use some little tweaks in FAQ but nothing to be hurry about.

Can't wait for Jabba the Hutt and Light Scyk title!

1 hour ago, FirstOrderProblems said:

I think you're making a lot of assumptions with your formula. You're assuming that a missile slot is worth 2 points because that's what Chardaan takes away. I disagree; I believe that Chardaan was intended to fix the base cost of the A-Wing platform for a slight tradeoff - not be a 1-for-1 trade of missile slot for points.

A free (conditional) evade every round probably weighs in between 4-5 points worth of value. I'm basing this number on the prices of similar effects already in-game: R2D2 (probably undercosted) offers a very similar effect for 4 points. PTL is worse at this effect but only costs 3. Looking at some of the weirder stuff like Fleet Officer and Lando (crew), we can see that they also generate a free token with a side effect for 3 points.

With x/7 costed at -2, that creates something like a 6 point swing. I'd guess the cannon and missile slot together account for at most just over 1-1.5 pts. I really don't think secondary weapon slots cost all that much. So... x/7 is pretty good.

While it is possible that Chardaan is generous in giving back points for the missile slot, there is still the corroboration of the pre-buff Heavy Scyk to consider as I mentioned before, which agrees with Chardaan's pricing. While not confirmation, it does lend credence. I'm using pre-buff Scyk because at the time of release, it wasn't a fix. Now that it is a fix, the point cost is off, but not originally. As has been pointed out before, when you're fixing a ship, actual prices are subject to change.

While I agree that R2D2 is a possible comparison point, I still stand by my previous use of the TIE/v1 to explain the pricing. It's a little off, but close enough for the fact that x7 is a fix and v1 isn't to make up for gaps.

i would like to hear your reasoning for the 1-1.5 pricing for both the cannon and missile slot.

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

True, but conversely abilities that trigger on hits are better against regen than evade and probably more common (Ion, ISYTDS) so that cuts both ways.

There are cuts both ways, but there seems to be enough similarities to equate them more then just a Shield Upgrade+.

1 hour ago, VanderLegion said:

I agree with FirstOrderProblems here. The Chardaan refit isn't saying the missile slot is worth 2 points. It's saying the a-wing is ~2 points overcosted and here's how we're going to fix that. Similarly, you took the pre-buff heavy-scyk title to say that a missile or cannon is worth 2 points, except they DID buff it because it wasn't actually worth the 2 points. Now it add's a hull upgrade as well, which could argue that the missile or cannon slot isn't worth costing ANY extra, and the scyk was overcosted by a point in addition to that since they essentially get a hull upgrade for 1 point cheaper AND get a free upgrade slot.

And a free evade every round is worth a minimum of 3 points. That's from the fact that most free action upgrades cost at least that (PTL is 3 points + stress. EI is 3 points + stress. Predator and dengar are 3 points for 1-2 rerolls, basically a TL depending on the roll, etc). And those all have downsides. PTL and EI stress you, predator and dengar reroll less potential dice than a Target Lock. The only "downside" of tie/x7 is that you ahve to do a 3+ speed maneuver. Given that the only turns are speed 3, the kturn is speed 4, that's rarely a problem. And can actualy even be a benefit because it can catch opponents quite by surprise when you actually do a 1-2 speed maneuver.

Okay, adding this one on kinda last minute, so some of the counter points I have for you are up with FirstOrderProblems. If I've missed something, just bring it up again.

Anyway, as for your point that a free evade is worth a min of three points, your PTL and EI examples are questionable do to that the apply to all types of actions, not just evades. There are turns where I'd much rather a free target lock instead of evade from x7, but that's not what's offered. PTL and EI provide more flexibility then x7 on the subject of actions. Also, their downside is as easily negated as x7s, when used on the right ship. And finally, you can slap PTL and EI on anything with the right slots, where as x7 is tuned for one user. Predator and Dengar are a little harder to counter, as they are a target lock like effect that are not blockable. There is still the availability defense, but I'll admit it's not entirely enough. Still to be considered, though. There is also the TIE/v1 title (not a fix title) to consider for free actions, as mentioned before.

As for the benefit of psyching someone out with going slow with x7, that can be used with most of the counter examples as well, so I don't think it should effect x7's price consideration.

10 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

While it is possible that Chardaan is generous in giving back points for the missile slot, there is still the corroboration of the pre-buff Heavy Scyk to consider as I mentioned before, which agrees with Chardaan's pricing. While not confirmation, it does lend credence. I'm using pre-buff Scyk because at the time of release, it wasn't a fix. Now that it is a fix, the point cost is off, but not originally. As has been pointed out before, when you're fixing a ship, actual prices are subject to change.

You can't use a fix card and a (later errata'd nonfix card) to point to the missile slot actually being worth 2 points. The fact that Chardaan IS a fix means you don't know the missile slot is worth 2 points. it just means that the ship needed a 2 point cost decrease and that's where they chose to get it. Maybe the thought was that the missile slot is worth 1 point, and the ship is 1 piont overcosted even after losing the missile slot, so chardaan fixes both. And you can't justify the missile slot being worth 2 points simply from the heavy scyk title because they clearly decided it WASN"T worth 2 points just for th emissile slot on the ship as it was. If the scyk had been a competitive sihp from the start with the heavy scyk title doing only what it does, then MAYBE you could say that. But you could also argue that the thinking is that it's worth 1 point for a missile slot, or 1 point for a cannon, or 1 point for a torpedo, and then they decided it was worth a second point for the ability to pick which of the 3 you get to use, instead of being stuck with just 1 of them ont he bar by default.

11 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Anyway, as for your point that a free evade is worth a min of three points, your PTL and EI examples are questionable do to that the apply to all types of actions, not just evades. There are turns where I'd much rather a free target lock instead of evade from x7, but that's not what's offered. PTL and EI provide more flexibility then x7 on the subject of actions. Also, their downside is as easily negated as x7s, when used on the right ship. And finally, you can slap PTL and EI on anything with the right slots, where as x7 is tuned for one user. Predator and Dengar are a little harder to counter, as they are a target lock like effect that are not blockable. There is still the availability defense, but I'll admit it's not entirely enough. Still to be considered, though. There is also the TIE/v1 title (not a fix title) to consider for free actions, as mentioned before.

As for the benefit of psyching someone out with going slow with x7, that can be used with most of the counter examples as well, so I don't think it should effect x7's price consideration.

Want some more examples? R7-T1 uses an action to get a TL and a boost, again, gives you a second action at 3 points. This one specifies exactly what BOTH actions have to be, AND has a stipulation of having to have an enemy ship at range 1-2 with you in their arc. X7 specifies 1 action and lets you do whatever you want for th enormal one. AND works when you don't actually get an action, unlike PTL, EI, R7-T1, or the TIE/v1 title.

How about Targeting Astromech. Only 2 points this time, but also specifies what action you have to take and has the far more limiting requirement of performing a red maneuver, which means it's the ONLy action you get (unless you have some other way to get more actions), and you get a stress (because of the red), and consequently and can't be done every round (unless you have a way to perform reds while already stressed).

Weapons engineer at 3 points essentially lets you get a second free target lock action when you perform a target lock.

Recon specialist at 3 points gives you an extra focus token (specific "action") and only when you perform the actual focus action.

Lando at 3 points only even gives you the "possibility" of getting an extra "action", since you roll 2 dice and can get up to 2 focus, 2 evade, or 1 of each. You could also get nothing.

Kyle at 3 points gives you a free focus token, but only when you remove a stress token from your ship.

k4 security droid at 3 points gives you a free TL, only when doing greens.

Fleet officer at 3 points gives 2 ships 1 focus token at the cost of 1 action and a stress.

Ezra at 3 points changes an eyeball to a crit (super mini-focus), but only works when stressed and can only change 1, but gives you better than just eyeball->hit.

C3P0 at 3 points gives you at most 1 free evade result (essentially a token), but is only a chance of even doing that.

Expertise is 4 points and essentially gives you a free focus for attack. If you only get 1 attack, taht's basically 1 free focus token, and can't be used for defense. If you have more htan 1 attack it gets cheaper per extra "action".

Fire Control is only 2 points to get free target locks, but only works on subsequent attacks at the same target, so if you have to switch targets it does nothing, and never does anything on your first attack on a target.

Need I go on?

Sure, TIE/v1 only costs 1 point to get a free evade, but it's a different situation. First, part of that cost could be built into the ship itself. I'm not sure if I've ever seen a prototype run without the title, at the very least they have it the vast majority of the time. Second, it requires using a specific action (target lock) in order to get the evade. That means if you block the ship, it gets no evade. If you stress the ship and it doesn't do a green, it gets no evade. If it flies over an asteroid or a debris field, it gets no evade. If it moves first and there's nothing in range to TL, then they move in range later, it gets no evade. It's way more limited than the defender's "I get a free evade every single round of the game no matter what you do unless I choose to do a slower move for some reason". And the only way to get both focus/evade for defense with the v1 is to spend yet more points on PTL or some way to get extra actions/tokens. A defender can have focus/evade every round of the game.

How much would you pay for the X7 title if you could put it on other ships? Three points? Would be a bargain at that price. (For any ship with a similar dial.) I think four points would be fair.

I think the X7 title should have just added evade to the action bar. The title lowers the cost of the ship and makes it nearly immune to bumping. You can't keep undercutting basic mechanics without mucking things up. (Dengaroo and stress being another example)

3 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

part of that cost could be built into the ship itself. I'm not sure if I've ever seen a prototype run without the title, at the very least they have it the vast majority of the time."

I think you got it. Defenders title also are supposed to have their cost built into the (otherwise vastly overcosted) ship itself. The same as TAP, advance, SF, ARC...

Comparing X7 against R2D2 is the same kind of nosense as compare the advanced x1 title against a targeting astromech, yes both can give a free TL, but the cost of x1 (and also x7 and D) is part of the ship previous overcosted price.

You could argue that even so, -2 points for a nearly free evade token is too much. And I could concur, maybe a free action is better, maybe 0 points instead of -2.
Alas, anyway, to compare the title with other cards, without taking in conssiderstion the whole ship, is not a way of prove anything.

1 hour ago, VanderLegion said:

You can't use a fix card and a (later errata'd nonfix card) to point to the missile slot actually being worth 2 points. The fact that Chardaan IS a fix means you don't know the missile slot is worth 2 points. it just means that the ship needed a 2 point cost decrease and that's where they chose to get it. Maybe the thought was that the missile slot is worth 1 point, and the ship is 1 piont overcosted even after losing the missile slot, so chardaan fixes both. And you can't justify the missile slot being worth 2 points simply from the heavy scyk title because they clearly decided it WASN"T worth 2 points just for th emissile slot on the ship as it was. If the scyk had been a competitive sihp from the start with the heavy scyk title doing only what it does, then MAYBE you could say that. But you could also argue that the thinking is that it's worth 1 point for a missile slot, or 1 point for a cannon, or 1 point for a torpedo, and then they decided it was worth a second point for the ability to pick which of the 3 you get to use, instead of being stuck with just 1 of them ont he bar by default.

Want some more examples? R7-T1 uses an action to get a TL and a boost, again, gives you a second action at 3 points. This one specifies exactly what BOTH actions have to be, AND has a stipulation of having to have an enemy ship at range 1-2 with you in their arc. X7 specifies 1 action and lets you do whatever you want for th enormal one. AND works when you don't actually get an action, unlike PTL, EI, R7-T1, or the TIE/v1 title.

How about Targeting Astromech. Only 2 points this time, but also specifies what action you have to take and has the far more limiting requirement of performing a red maneuver, which means it's the ONLy action you get (unless you have some other way to get more actions), and you get a stress (because of the red), and consequently and can't be done every round (unless you have a way to perform reds while already stressed).

Weapons engineer at 3 points essentially lets you get a second free target lock action when you perform a target lock.

Recon specialist at 3 points gives you an extra focus token (specific "action") and only when you perform the actual focus action.

Lando at 3 points only even gives you the "possibility" of getting an extra "action", since you roll 2 dice and can get up to 2 focus, 2 evade, or 1 of each. You could also get nothing.

Kyle at 3 points gives you a free focus token, but only when you remove a stress token from your ship.

k4 security droid at 3 points gives you a free TL, only when doing greens.

Fleet officer at 3 points gives 2 ships 1 focus token at the cost of 1 action and a stress.

Ezra at 3 points changes an eyeball to a crit (super mini-focus), but only works when stressed and can only change 1, but gives you better than just eyeball->hit.

C3P0 at 3 points gives you at most 1 free evade result (essentially a token), but is only a chance of even doing that.

Expertise is 4 points and essentially gives you a free focus for attack. If you only get 1 attack, taht's basically 1 free focus token, and can't be used for defense. If you have more htan 1 attack it gets cheaper per extra "action".

Fire Control is only 2 points to get free target locks, but only works on subsequent attacks at the same target, so if you have to switch targets it does nothing, and never does anything on your first attack on a target.

Need I go on?

Sure, TIE/v1 only costs 1 point to get a free evade, but it's a different situation. First, part of that cost could be built into the ship itself. I'm not sure if I've ever seen a prototype run without the title, at the very least they have it the vast majority of the time. Second, it requires using a specific action (target lock) in order to get the evade. That means if you block the ship, it gets no evade. If you stress the ship and it doesn't do a green, it gets no evade. If it flies over an asteroid or a debris field, it gets no evade. If it moves first and there's nothing in range to TL, then they move in range later, it gets no evade. It's way more limited than the defender's "I get a free evade every single round of the game no matter what you do unless I choose to do a slower move for some reason". And the only way to get both focus/evade for defense with the v1 is to spend yet more points on PTL or some way to get extra actions/tokens. A defender can have focus/evade every round of the game.

So, an extra hull is worth 1 point? Because that's where your Heavy Scyk reasoning is leading. Also,it seems you are placing the blame of the Scyk's short comings on the title, not the ship itself. At one point, FFG thought the 2 point title was the right cost, but It didn't work out, so FFG bent the rules for it. Like I said before, it's not rock solid confirmation, but it at least is an example with corroboration. If someone can show me actual evidence to support the theory that missile and cannon slots equal less then two points, then I might concede this point. Right now, I'm hearing a lot of maybes and mights when it comes to missile pricing.

Okay, long list. I'm gonna answer the all, but if I miss some, bring 'em back up. The "can be used on more than one ship" defense applies to all of these, but only helps so much. It's more of a secondary point, but it applies to all. I will also be using a "when do we see it?" defense, as some of these don't see a lot of use. Your first batch of examples (maybe not EI, since I haven't seen it much) are staples of X-Wing and are used frequently. Part of my defense is based on them being appropriately costed, therefore offer the right amount of value for cost. Those tagged with "when do you see it?" are likely not seen much because they are not considered worth their cost. I am drawing on personal knowledge and experience, so there will be gaps. Alright, here we go.

R7-T1: When do you see it? Last time I saw it was last year, when I was using it to try and give Wedge a cheaper boost. Didn't work out. Haven't heard of it at tournaments.

Targetting Astromech: When do you see it? The only place I've seen it consistently is on Hobbie, and I don't see him that often. The only other time I can recall was when I tried to use it to try and find a combo with generic e-wings that worked. Inconclusive results.

Weapons Enginer: While maybe not a "When do you see it?", this guy is close. He only really sees use on TL intensive pilots, but even then it's iffy. Plus, it is such a good teammate for Vessery that it's absence from competive Vessery lists is telling to me. (Part of that is due to limited carriers for the engineer, but that's part of what makes a card useful is how well it can mesh in a team.)

Recon Specialist: Definitely not a "When do you see it?". Still probably one of my favorite crews. But this is a case where it's accessibility becomes more of a point. All three factions can use it, and it can go on a large number of ships, so can't be too cheep in case of dirt combos.

Lando: When do you see it? Most luck based cards I know of are avoided like the plague for competitive games.

Kyle: Kyle is similar to Recon Spec and has seen good use on some Dash builds, but starts falling off if not paired with a self stressor.

K4 Security Droid: Also in camp with Kyle and Recon Spec. Does get a bit out shone by Dengar, but still sees good use.

Fleet Officer: When do you see it? The only time I've heard it mentioned was during brainstorming for duel TIE/D lists, but only heard one, maybe two success stories. Also, adding two tokens, not one.

Ezra: Ezra's a decent example, but that he changes the focus into a crit instead of a hit gives it a slight edge over a free evade.

C-3P0: Only really worth the points on low AGI ships. As the green dice go up, his usefulness goes down, as does his benefit/cost ratio.

Expertise: An example of preemptive pricing. The amount of scary combos with this guy is staggering. And, in the case of putting it on ships with multiple attacks, can be considered as more than one focus token.

Fire Control Sytems: Good example. Well used card. Also unblockable. Makes you wonder why Targeting Astromech is the same points as it.

If you want.

Alright, not bad. There was several good counters in that batch. I still hold that they were priced with going on multiple different ships in mind, but that's a minor point. It will, however, tie into a later conclusion.

Now, the case of the TIE/v1. Your "designed with the title in mind" is a fair point, but can also be twisted to say "x7 was designed with the Defender in mind". Most of the people I've talk to and heard talk of pre-title Defender said that it was over priced. So, with that in mind, FFG created two titles that made up for that, both of which turned it into the superiority fighter it was suppose to be. There is the whole "free action" angle, but the x7 still takes away more and is still accounting for it's overpricing. Also, you have been equating TLs with evades and focuses in your points before, so saying the v1 has it rough for getting two token when the Defender gets two tokens won't fly.

Whew. Okay. That's what I got for now. If you feel I labeled a card "When do you see it?" unjustly, please bring it up. I'm not trying to say no one can have a problem with x7's pricing. I'm saying that there is a logic to its pricing when compared to Chardaan Refit (which Blodvargarna did first to spark this). If you don't believe that's a good comparison, that's up to you. I stand by it until better data is to be had.

Mark me down with the chorus for arguing that banning and rotating are sledgehammer fixes and X-Wing really just needs a little bit of tweaking because it's basically working pretty well. Put a range cap on Manaroo, boost the base points cost of the JM5k, maybe touch up Zuckuss and X7 a bit, nothing radical.

There's always room to improve but I think the list of ships that need fixes to make them more competitive is much longer than the list of ships that need to be nerfed, and none of the nerfs need to be all that extreme.

We should ban topics like this.

2 hours ago, SabineKey said:

While it is possible that Chardaan is generous in giving back points for the missile slot, there is still the corroboration of the pre-buff Heavy Scyk to consider as I mentioned before, which agrees with Chardaan's pricing. While not confirmation, it does lend credence. I'm using pre-buff Scyk because at the time of release, it wasn't a fix. Now that it is a fix, the point cost is off, but not originally. As has been pointed out before, when you're fixing a ship, actual prices are subject to change.

While I agree that R2D2 is a possible comparison point, I still stand by my previous use of the TIE/v1 to explain the pricing. It's a little off, but close enough for the fact that x7 is a fix and v1 isn't to make up for gaps.

i would like to hear your reasoning for the 1-1.5 pricing for both the cannon and missile slot

Unfortunately I can't give you hard numbers, as I'm still (very slowly) trying to pin down a better mathematical model for ship pricing. It's getting there, haha. But here's my thought process:

Assumption #1: The first missile slot is roughly equivalent to the first torpedo slot. Why? The two ordnance types function very similarly. See Conc Missiles vs Proton Torps for example. This is important when comparing these explosives to cannons.

Assumption #2: Missile/Torp Slots and Cannon Slots are not worth the same amount of points. My reasoning here is based on the upgrades themselves. Comparing the prices on Flechette Torpedoes to the Flechette Cannon - the cannon can fire multiple times with a slightly worse effect, but does not require at TL. They both come in at 2 points, but I think that the cannon is significantly better. Against small based ships, Ion Cannons vs Ion Pulse Missiles tell a similar story. Mangler Cannon is roughly equivalent to a 4 cost missile, but is reusable. And HLC with a target lock behaves similarly to Conc Missiles with extra munitions, but can often get more than 2 shots off in a game.

I think that the power discrepancy in the upgrades makes a good case for the opportunity cost of a cannon slot being much higher than a missile/torp slot.

Assumption #3: Most of the cost of a Torp/Missile is paid for in the actual upgrade, not in the opportunity cost of the slot. Without going too deep right off the bat, look at the difference between a Tie L/N vs an Interceptor. 6 more points base adds the way better dial and boost. But the most serious difference is in the 3rd red die - that eats the lion's share of the points. Another example would be the Kihraxz fighter vs the Z95: 20 points vs 12, difference being 2 extra hull, better dial at the cost of a shield...and a 3rd red die. The red die is huge here. This leads me to believe that the cost of a one-time-use 3-4 attack weapon should be priced at ~3-4 points, because it has to cost less than permanently adding that next tier of red dice. Therefore, the slot itself is pretty negligible.

This still makes sense given the context of the original Heavy Scyk title. If a cannon slot is worth around a point, and the ability to choose upgrade type isn't free either, it makes sense that FFG just priced it based on those two factors added together.

My best guess right now is that the first torp slot and/or missile slot is worth between .25 and .5 points, and a cannon slot is probably just over 1 point.

6 minutes ago, FirstOrderProblems said:

Unfortunately I can't give you hard numbers, as I'm still (very slowly) trying to pin down a better mathematical model for ship pricing. It's getting there, haha. But here's my thought process:

Assumption #1: The first missile slot is roughly equivalent to the first torpedo slot. Why? The two ordnance types function very similarly. See Conc Missiles vs Proton Torps for example. This is important when comparing these explosives to cannons.

Assumption #2: Missile/Torp Slots and Cannon Slots are not worth the same amount of points. My reasoning here is based on the upgrades themselves. Comparing the prices on Flechette Torpedoes to the Flechette Cannon - the cannon can fire multiple times with a slightly worse effect, but does not require at TL. They both come in at 2 points, but I think that the cannon is significantly better. Against small based ships, Ion Cannons vs Ion Pulse Missiles tell a similar story. Mangler Cannon is roughly equivalent to a 4 cost missile, but is reusable. And HLC with a target lock behaves similarly to Conc Missiles with extra munitions, but can often get more than 2 shots off in a game.

I think that the power discrepancy in the upgrades makes a good case for the opportunity cost of a cannon slot being much higher than a missile/torp slot.

Assumption #3: Most of the cost of a Torp/Missile is paid for in the actual upgrade, not in the opportunity cost of the slot. Without going too deep right off the bat, look at the difference between a Tie L/N vs an Interceptor. 6 more points base adds the way better dial and boost. But the most serious difference is in the 3rd red die - that eats the lion's share of the points. Another example would be the Kihraxz fighter vs the Z95: 20 points vs 12, difference being 2 extra hull, better dial at the cost of a shield...and a 3rd red die. The red die is huge here. This leads me to believe that the cost of a one-time-use 3-4 attack weapon should be priced at ~3-4 points, because it has to cost less than permanently adding that next tier of red dice. Therefore, the slot itself is pretty negligible.

This still makes sense given the context of the original Heavy Scyk title. If a cannon slot is worth around a point, and the ability to choose upgrade type isn't free either, it makes sense that FFG just priced it based on those two factors added together.

My best guess right now is that the first torp slot and/or missile slot is worth between .25 and .5 points, and a cannon slot is probably just over 1 point.

Ah, thank you for taking the time to explain your thought process. The steps you laid out look logical and quite reasonable. I do still feel that the point cost indicated by Chardaan Refit and Heavy Scyk has weight due to Occam's Razor, but I will admit your theory of pricing does cast some shadows of doubt.

26 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Ah, thank you for taking the time to explain your thought process. The steps you laid out look logical and quite reasonable. I do still feel that the point cost indicated by Chardaan Refit and Heavy Scyk has weight due to Occam's Razor, but I will admit your theory of pricing does cast some shadows of doubt.

Thanks! It's definitely possible that I'm lowballing the costs. It's good to hear other perspectives - I had never really thought of Chardaan + Heavy Scyk along those lines. I do think some slots are pretty pricey - astromechs and crew slots both seem to come with a steep cost, so maybe ordnance is priced closer to them too.

In any case I don't think the idea of x/7 is super undercosted, I just wish the execution had a bit more interaction to it, eg if stress or bumping could shut it off. That would probably make it seem a lot more fair.

1 hour ago, skins1924 said:

We should ban topics like this.

This.

If Attani Mindlink only allowed 1 pair, then PTL, BTL, TLT, Cluster mines, and x7 became uniques... that'd go pretty far IMO

and it'd avoid the incredible/horrible/take the game to the back 40 and plug it in the head a few times route of publishing massive errata-ed costs

EDIT: It'd also be fun to see more tournaments with "historical lists"... like "Yavin", "Endor", "Post RotJ" etc

1 hour ago, Djaskim609 said:

This.

2 hours ago, SabineKey said:

So, an extra hull is worth 1 point? Because that's where your Heavy Scyk reasoning is leading. Also,it seems you are placing the blame of the Scyk's short comings on the title, not the ship itself. At one point, FFG thought the 2 point title was the right cost, but It didn't work out, so FFG bent the rules for it. Like I said before, it's not rock solid confirmation, but it at least is an example with corroboration. If someone can show me actual evidence to support the theory that missile and cannon slots equal less then two points, then I might concede this point. Right now, I'm hearing a lot of maybes and mights when it comes to missile pricing.

Okay, long list. I'm gonna answer the all, but if I miss some, bring 'em back up. The "can be used on more than one ship" defense applies to all of these, but only helps so much. It's more of a secondary point, but it applies to all. I will also be using a "when do we see it?" defense, as some of these don't see a lot of use. Your first batch of examples (maybe not EI, since I haven't seen it much) are staples of X-Wing and are used frequently. Part of my defense is based on them being appropriately costed, therefore offer the right amount of value for cost. Those tagged with "when do you see it?" are likely not seen much because they are not considered worth their cost. I am drawing on personal knowledge and experience, so there will be gaps. Alright, here we go.

R7-T1: When do you see it? Last time I saw it was last year, when I was using it to try and give Wedge a cheaper boost. Didn't work out. Haven't heard of it at tournaments.

Targetting Astromech: When do you see it? The only place I've seen it consistently is on Hobbie, and I don't see him that often. The only other time I can recall was when I tried to use it to try and find a combo with generic e-wings that worked. Inconclusive results.

Weapons Enginer: While maybe not a "When do you see it?", this guy is close. He only really sees use on TL intensive pilots, but even then it's iffy. Plus, it is such a good teammate for Vessery that it's absence from competive Vessery lists is telling to me. (Part of that is due to limited carriers for the engineer, but that's part of what makes a card useful is how well it can mesh in a team.)

Recon Specialist: Definitely not a "When do you see it?". Still probably one of my favorite crews. But this is a case where it's accessibility becomes more of a point. All three factions can use it, and it can go on a large number of ships, so can't be too cheep in case of dirt combos.

Lando: When do you see it? Most luck based cards I know of are avoided like the plague for competitive games.

Kyle: Kyle is similar to Recon Spec and has seen good use on some Dash builds, but starts falling off if not paired with a self stressor.

K4 Security Droid: Also in camp with Kyle and Recon Spec. Does get a bit out shone by Dengar, but still sees good use.

Fleet Officer: When do you see it? The only time I've heard it mentioned was during brainstorming for duel TIE/D lists, but only heard one, maybe two success stories. Also, adding two tokens, not one.

Ezra: Ezra's a decent example, but that he changes the focus into a crit instead of a hit gives it a slight edge over a free evade.

C-3P0: Only really worth the points on low AGI ships. As the green dice go up, his usefulness goes down, as does his benefit/cost ratio.

Expertise: An example of preemptive pricing. The amount of scary combos with this guy is staggering. And, in the case of putting it on ships with multiple attacks, can be considered as more than one focus token.

Fire Control Sytems: Good example. Well used card. Also unblockable. Makes you wonder why Targeting Astromech is the same points as it.

If you want.

Alright, not bad. There was several good counters in that batch. I still hold that they were priced with going on multiple different ships in mind, but that's a minor point. It will, however, tie into a later conclusion.

Now, the case of the TIE/v1. Your "designed with the title in mind" is a fair point, but can also be twisted to say "x7 was designed with the Defender in mind". Most of the people I've talk to and heard talk of pre-title Defender said that it was over priced. So, with that in mind, FFG created two titles that made up for that, both of which turned it into the superiority fighter it was suppose to be. There is the whole "free action" angle, but the x7 still takes away more and is still accounting for it's overpricing. Also, you have been equating TLs with evades and focuses in your points before, so saying the v1 has it rough for getting two token when the Defender gets two tokens won't fly.

Whew. Okay. That's what I got for now. If you feel I labeled a card "When do you see it?" unjustly, please bring it up. I'm not trying to say no one can have a problem with x7's pricing. I'm saying that there is a logic to its pricing when compared to Chardaan Refit (which Blodvargarna did first to spark this). If you don't believe that's a good comparison, that's up to you. I stand by it until better data is to be had.

R7-T1: Not being used a ton, but I've had good success with it on Thane Kyrell in the ARC.

Targeting Astromech: Agreed it's not used much. part of the problem is the best fit for it is probably the x-wing, which is...not good right now. If x-wings or generic e-wings were in a better place, it's possible we might see it more? No way to really know unless/until the ships get fixed. Y-wings don't really do reds very often to make it worthwhile since they have turrets.

Weapons Engineer: Also not seen a lot. Probably most on Shara atm. Some people advocate for it on latts, though I think they're wrong.

Kyle: Accessible, but rarely used outside of dash, or maybe keyan (who's rarely used himself)

K4: Was quite popular for scum crew ships before dengar came out, but still used fairly commonly.

Fleet officer: Adds 2 tokens instead of one, but it uses you're action to do it. So it's essentially giving you a focus (or letting you give a friend a focus), plus a second action for the second focus for yourself or a different friend.

Ezra: Focus to crit, but only changes 1 result, which makes it at best equal to a focus token in overall power

Expertise: Powerful, and could maek good combos, but also has the massive downside of not working if you're stressed. Opponent brought a stresshog, or stress braylen, or asajj (and you don't keep range 3 our out of the mobile arc)? Too bad you wasted 4 points in your list. And better not do red maneuvers too often.

If you want a couple more ship-specific options:

Shadowcaster: For 3 points allows you to assign tractor tokens to enemy ships. BUT requires you to hit them with an attack, and for them to be at range 1-2 specifically in your mobile arc. The tractor token could be taken to be ~equivalent to an action given the spacetug tractor array which allows you to spend an action to automatically tractor an enemy.

Dauntless: Only 2 points, and lets you get a free action, but gives you a stress and only works if you bump someone, meaning you aren't getting an action at all otherwise, so it doesn't give you any extra actions beyond what you would have anyway.

Something almost all of the above have in common: Almost every single one of them can be shut down by your opponent. Any of the ones that require taking an action in the first place (R7T1, weapons engineeer to a degree, fleet officer, recon specialist) can be shut down by stress. Or by blocking. If you bump, you can't take the action. Stress also shuts down targeting astromech since you can't do reds, and expertise since it doesn't work while stressed. Stacked stress, such as a stresshog will shut down all of those same ones, as well as dauntless (can't do free actions while stressed). Shadowcaster can be shut down by staying at range 3 or out of the mobile arc. The only ones you can't really stop are kyle, k4 security droid, and ezra. Kyle only works when the opponent removes a stress, so they have to sink even more points into it if they want to make it work every round (such as PTL dash). K4 is limited to green maneuvers, so you can potentially position yourself to where they need to do non-greens to get shots or get out of arc themselves. Ezra also requires them to keep themselves stressed.

Every single one of these is more limited than the x7 title. There's literally nothing to stop you from doing a 3+ speed maneuver every single round of the game and always get the free evade. And who cares if you get a stack of stress or bump, because you still get you're evade token regardless.

For TIE/v1, I pointed out that it requires you to get the exact 2 tokens it specifies, so you can't barrel roll or focus, where x7 gives you an evade and you can do whatever you want for the other action. And that the target lock is more limited by things like range. And, again, that it's blocked by stress and bumping, while x7 is not. That alone points to it being worth less.

As for it being designed specifically for the defender, sure it was. The argument is just that they overdesigned and undercosted it. Sure, the defender was overcosted. And if they'd just made it cheaper, that would have been fine. If they'd left the price where it was and given it the free evade on fast maneuvers, it probably would have been fine. The problem is doing BOTH. They made it cheaper, bringing it closer in line to what it should have costed in the first place, AND gave it one of the best action-efficiency upgrades in the game. Compare it to the TIE/D title. How often have you seen that in play competitively? I'd be willing to bet if TIE/D had been -2 points and x7 had been 0 points instead of the other way around, x7 would have still been great, but tie/d might have seen more play as well.

As for comparisons to chardaan and heavy scyk: you pointed out that upgrades for general ships dont' always have to follow the same costin grules as mroe general upgrades. So why should chardaan making an a-wing -2 points always mean that the missile slot is 2 points? Especially when chardaan wasn't even a base ugprade with the ship. It's not like ffg decided "we think the a-wing is worth 17 points with a missile, but in case people don't want the missile slot, we'll also let them remove it for 2 points" when they made the ship. The decided it was 2 points and decided the missile slot was where they would put an upgrade to fix it, that doesn't mean the missile slot is worth 2 points on it's own.

And I already pointed out that heavy scyk doesn't just give you an upgrade slot, it gives you a CHOICE of upgrade slots, which is worth more than just a title that says "add a missile slot to your upgrade bar". Compare to the Slave 1 title. It gives you a torpedo slot for free. Are you telling me a missile slot is worth 2 points more than a torpedo slot?

I don't understand the pesistant habit of comparing X7's evade to a shield regen every round. It's far weaker than that.

The game provides many many methods of ignoring that evade token. Homing missiles, Palob, Wes, Carnor, Bombs, 4Lom, feedback, sabine, autoblaster, etc. As a result, these all feature heavily in the meta. And as a result of that, Defenders aren't winning as many tournaments as they did when vets first dropped.

A shield back a turn is strictly better than an evade token a turn. (That's not to say X7 isn't undercosted, by the way.)

9 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

The only "downside" of tie/x7 is that you ahve to do a 3+ speed maneuver. Given that the only turns are speed 3, the kturn is speed 4, that's rarely a problem.

You probably need to contact FFG customer service for replacement dials. It sounds like yours are missing a couple of turns.

19 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

You probably need to contact FFG customer service for replacement dials. It sounds like yours are missing a couple of turns.

Ok, I forgot to add the word non-red. Though as often as those are (not) used, they might as well not exist a lot of games.

39 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Ok, I forgot to add the word non-red. Though as often as those are (not) used, they might as well not exist a lot of games.

I see a extensive use of the speed <3 in the X7 Defenders. Only a limited player ignore the red turns of such a ship, be unpredictable and getting out of arc is far far superior to a simple free evade. It's like ignoring reposition with a interceptor, or the turret in a Falcón.

Actually, I consider this movements the "danger zone" of the x7, a ship thats nearly allways do a stright movement is easy countered, a hard one with 6 lives, 3 green dices, evade and focus, but no such a threat . This is why the MkII is so good in a defender.

If you never see a red turn in a X7 Defender, either you have seen few defenders at the table, or you have been very lucky with your enemies, or yourself has been underutilized a brutal ship.

10 hours ago, Oldpara said:

Game is amazing. Nothing to ban or rotate. Worst idea ever. Maybe we could use some little tweaks in FAQ but nothing to be hurry about.

Can't wait for Jabba the Hutt and Light Scyk title!

6 hours ago, skins1924 said:

We should ban topics like this.

5 hours ago, Djaskim609 said:

This.

4 hours ago, Joe Boss Red Seven said:

It appears I'm not the only one. Time for Daggobah Dave to appear and tell us we're all children? Or maybe the OP will accept he posted in a public forum and will get this sort of reaction when half the forum boards are filled with these threads?

The right to complain in public about whatever, is as sacred as the right to be answered "your complaint is unjustified" or "I like, the thing, as it is now more than with your change".

It is so useless to complain about this kind of threads "fix/ban/2º edition/sky is falling", as to complain about those who "do not collaborate to the thread" replying that they do not see the change useful.

Freedom of speech is a b***h, but is a pretty one.