11 minutes ago, Doppelganger said:

"Overall this is data on 523 ships from 186 squads in 26 Regionals.
50% of ALL Scum & Villainy ships equipped Attani Mindlink. 50%!

...so, only half then? Could be worse. I imagine the number of TIE Defender lists taking x7 is MUCH higher. And the number of Soontir Fels taking Push the Limit and Autothrusters is probably 100%.

If the last US Presidential campaign taught us anything, it's that statistics are only as reliable as the person who's manipulating them. But trying to establish that 50% equals a consensus is what's turned Britain into a global laughing stock. It's ridiculous.

In unrelated news, I am currently enjoying a late breakfast. Bacon, eggs and toast, no less.

FLYING CASUALE is the way, unless you one of the winner-wingers that just have to subject yourselves to tournaments. In such cases you are always going to have this negativity in your games, fix-nerf-buff-meta-smurfs are going to be all around you like a cloud of discontent.

I say we ban dice; those things are way too unreliable and swingy, and 100% of lists that make it to the top tables use them! 100%!!

To the OP.

1) The game changes with each release.

2) Experiment! You may find something that beats the current meta.

3) Watch the games from previous Worlds. Notice the change in the game in both squad builds and play style.

4) Relax, it's a game after all.

5) Have fun. Try different things. If you're not having fun, consider taking a break or leaving the game.

Obviously personal preferences are the key here but the game of X-wing at a competitive level is really no longer a game I enjoy. There are a large number of competitive options. This is true. But the percentage of available ships/pilots that can compete at the highest levels is not terribly high. Each faction has a handful of viable options and a binder full of pilots that handicap you to an almost insurmountable degree.

Yes, negativity gets to be draining and nobody likes a "whiner" but ignoring the problems facing the game of X-wing or trying to shout down others that express those concerns is just as annoying. You think the game is great as is? Great. Go play and have fun. But don't simply dismiss legitimate concerns from long-time players as baseless or frivolous "whining,"

The balance in X-wing has never been perfect. However, when options and interactions are few and limited, those balance problems were easier to hide or ignore. As the game grows, new ships need new mechanics to stand out. The more complex a system becomes, the harder it is to correct when problems arise. X-wing is a good game right now but it's competitive balance and long-term viability are (in my opinion) teetering.

Analogies may or may not be helpful here but I like the image of throwing a pot on a potter's wheel. You don't need perfect symmetry but there is a tipping point beyond which the entire structure falls apart. As the shape gets more complex, symmetry and balance become both more critical and more difficult to maintain. Today (IMHO), X-wing is a fantastic and intricate bit of pottery that is dangerously close to flying apart at the seams and FFG's past approaches to restoring balance may not be effective much longer.

Most of the imbalance we have seen in X-wing have been ships that are below the relative power curve set by the humble Tie Fighter. The Tie Advanced, A-wing, Scyk, etc. were all under-powered for their cost. This was disappointing and made those ships various levels of unplayable at competitive levels. These misses below the power curve did not, however, destabilize the game overall. Maybe imagine putting too much clay near the base of the pot.

More recently, FFG has begun introduces ships that are, for various reasons, above the established power curve. Whisper, as originally released, made anything with a firing arc and/or a pilot skill less than 9 almost unusable. The problem was one of mechanics and FFG was able to fix the issue fairly elegantly by changing the timing of those mechanics. But now we have ships that are simply better at trading dice and have access to mechanics that the old standard-bearers simply cannot withstand. We are now looking at a structure that is out of balance at the very top level. Restoring balance by adding more is going to get progressively more difficult.

You can disagree with me on any number of points and, honestly, I hope you're right and the game will end up being fine. I'm no longer very optimistic.

54 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

...so, only half then? Could be worse. I imagine the number of TIE Defender lists taking x7 is MUCH higher. And the number of Soontir Fels taking Push the Limit and Autothrusters is probably 100%.

X7 fixed the Defenders, so it's reasonable to have it equipped to make it good. I also don't see 50% of all imp ships equipping them.

If 50% of all imperial ships used PTL or autothrusters, you'd have a point. In this case if half of all a factions ships are using the same generally available upgrade, then the upgrade needs adjusting.

1 hour ago, Doppelganger said:

"Overall this is data on 523 ships from 186 squads in 26 Regionals.
50% of ALL Scum & Villainy ships equipped Attani Mindlink. 50%! When you rule out all the two ship lists that don't really benefit enough from Mindlink, and all the generic pilots that don't have an EPT slot available, it adds up to almost every Scum pilot that could reasonably play Attani Mindlink chose to do so."
- source: http://stayontheleader.blogspot.de/

I politely diagree with your assesment. It makes ships immune to bumping and stress (one ship taking an action and bam all get a token assigned). And imho is one half of the problem. It would always be insanely good with that price.

However I also think the Jumpmaster is underpriced that is why this ship is involved in any balance issue on the scum side besides Zuckuss. U-boats, Dengaroo, Mindlink lists.

I think this is the most urgent issue that needs to be adressed, and then you can talk about other stuff especially x7
But without experiencing the fallout of one nerf to go around and nerf more stuff, thats just a sure way to obfuscate the results of your nerf.

Now cross-reference that with stats how many of those also included Manaroo.

I will stil stand by my opinion that Attani by itself is fine. Its like mini PtL. But so are things like imperial officers, few rebel pilots and so on. Its called action economy. One bonus focus token is nothing that calls for a ban especially when it can limit your oponnents next turn of movement with stress. There are multiple effects that gives focus tokens to bumped or stressed ships.

Problem starts when that ship bumps it to 2 focuses plus its own action.

2 hours ago, Xerandar said:

What a puerile post. One beset by logical fallacies.

While reading through his kind of Jack assery is unpleasant, the silver lining is now I've added another to the ignore pile and won't have to read it anymore from that particular poster.

And I'd nerf /7 and /D titles probably with a points adjustment. Zuckuss needs to be somewhere around 3 points. The whole "action economy" nonsense needs an adjustment and either bring all the other ships up to 3-4 actions per round or make some way to nerf it. Paratanni to me is the height of absurdity and is really "next level sh*t" so far from where the game started (or even where I joined up last year).

5 minutes ago, Vitalis said:

Now cross-reference that with stats how many of those also included Manaroo.

I will stil stand by my opinion that Attani by itself is fine. Its like mini PtL. But so are things like imperial officers, few rebel pilots and so on. Its called action economy. One bonus focus token is nothing that calls for a ban especially when it can limit your oponnents next turn of movement with stress. There are multiple effects that gives focus tokens to bumped or stressed ships.

Problem starts when that ship bumps it to 2 focuses plus its own action.

Seriously. There are a bunch of MIndlink lists that are pretty fine.

Manaroo PLUS mindlink PLUS Fenn is where the problems start arising.

In the same way that there are a number of PTL/Thruster/Palp lists that are fine, but PTL/Thrusters/Palp AND Soontir AND Inq started to get problematic.

22 minutes ago, Gadgetron said:

X7 fixed the Defenders, so it's reasonable to have it equipped to make it good...

...so you're saying it's perfectly fine for the Imperial faction to equip upgrades that male their ships good, but not Scum?

I just don't get it. The game has been rebalanced with a couple of nerfs and some very balance-oriented releases of late, and ffg have done a bang-up job. The end result? ...

There are so many competitive builds right now, and just below them, a shed-load of very viable builds too that, if practiced with, can play without fear at the top tables. What more could you want from a mature game with so many moving parts? Honestly, I'm impressed with how the game is being managed.

X-Wing has never been so healthy. Attani is all over the shop, admittedly, but Attani isn't impossible to crack. Give me Parattani any day of the week over the old fat-turret regime. Attani isn't a negative experience, unlike palp aces before the rebalance. Attani isn't easy to fly, like 4xTLTs. Attani allows lots of list variations, and people will start to move away from parattani soon I think.

So yeah, the OP's question is misleading... If X-Wing isn't great right now, then it was never great.

emmmm... the game is great and balanced and we shouldnt tweak it?

Surely there are more and less useful cards. but each and every card has it's master combo which is yet to be revealed.

Have you watched Lothal Open, the final game? If not, please guess what EPT was quickdraw equipped with.

Expertise? Rage? Markasmanship? Score to settle? Predator?

No, he had DRAW THEIR FIRE.

And his Carnor Jax? PTL surely? Nope, miss again, adaptability. Final game. 270 people. And go check Cal Jones' Rebel build he flew in Yavin open as well. Hera Syndulla pilot with navigator and Ashoka Tano as her wingman... so dont tell me the game is static and the meta is boring.

1 minute ago, banjobenito said:

So yeah, the OP's question is misleading... If X-Wing isn't great right now, then it was never great.

Great for whom is the question. Scum players and Imperial Defender players maybe.

26 minutes ago, Gadgetron said:

X7 fixed the Defenders, so it's reasonable to have it equipped to make it good. I also don't see 50% of all imp ships equipping them.

If 50% of all imperial ships used PTL or autothrusters, you'd have a point. In this case if half of all a factions ships are using the same generally available upgrade, then the upgrade needs adjusting.

That's skewed logic when comparing it to Mindlink. Mindlink is unique in that if it is equipped to one ship in a squad, it is likely going to be equipped to every ship in that squad.

You should be comparing the number of squads that have an /X7 Defender to the number of squads that have Mindlink for a more useful comparison.

1 minute ago, BlodVargarna said:

Great for whom is the question. Scum players and Imperial Defender players maybe.

Is that why we had a defender-less imperial list in the final game of 270-players tournament (Lothal Open)?

It's people who just likes to play popular lists and easy ships, not the game's fault.

2 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

Great for whom is the question. Scum players and Imperial Defender players maybe.

VXs, YV1300s, YV2400s, snapcrack Awings, T-70s, captured ties, K-wings and ARCs are all feasible at tournament level. And Imperials are back in a big way - I'm winning a lot with two interceptors in my lists at the moment, the Upsilon has brilliant pilots, /sfs are legit, /Ds are chronically underrated, Decimators are top dog right now ... So I guess the answer to your question is ... most players?

1 minute ago, Voitek said:

Is that why we had a defender-less imperial list in the final game of 270-players tournament (Lothal Open)?

It's people who just likes to play popular lists and easy ships, not the game's fault.

How many lists in tournament overall were either paratanni or defenders?

1 minute ago, BlodVargarna said:

How many lists in tournament overall were either paratanni or defenders?

They did not put the official results in the list juggler yet.

In TOP8 there was only one scum list I believe, and it was parattani.

4 or 5 were Imperials, most of them with Defenders indeed.

Final was 2 Defenders+Palpatine vs Tie/SF+Interceptor+Tie BOMBER.

I'm not saying Defenders arent super popular (because I know they are). My point is: they arent necessary to win, and you can easily build an innovative list and get great results with it, if you know how to fly it.

Yep, defenders and parattani are two of the top lists right now. Are you asking for a game that doesn't have top lists? Because that game doesn't exist.

Are you asking if the prevalance of these two lists makes it impossible for other lists to compete. Absolutely not, is the answer. And that's an important point, because if you compare that with fat turret, triple scouts or phantom menace, those were dark days. You had to build within a very narrow design space to deal with those top lists, otherwise you could never win a tournament.

These days, you have so many options at your disposal. Token stripping, big hitting, arc dodging, ordnance shooting, bomb dropping, tractor beaming, tlt spamming, pwt co-piloting .... What's not to like?

18 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

...so you're saying it's perfectly fine for the Imperial faction to equip upgrades that male their ships good, but not Scum?

Are scum ships competitive without mindlink? Yes, they just become far more so with mindlink. So much so, 50% of scum ships use it.

Are defenders competitive without x7? No, so in order to be useful they need it equipped or they wouldn't see play.

I gave you the benefit however that if 50% of imp ships were using the same upgrade across the board then that card needs changing. I'd argue that if 50%+ of top placing imperial lists are using a palp boat, that's a sign it's too good and needs to be retooled.

This applies to all factions and all lists and all upgrades. If we are constantly seeing nearly identical lists reaching the top tables, it means the game needs rebalancing.

PS: Balance is a problem with ALL games out there, X-Wing isn't some special snowflake, it ain't perfect so pointing out its flaws shouldn't be seen as a personal attack on anyone.

In the competitive scene, there's always going to be be people finding the most efficient combos. There's bound to be several lists that work really well with the best players. However, I think the game is in a good place. There are many viable lists, especially if you're playing casual.

In this forum, there's always going to be people asking for nerfs or bans for things they don't like (seriously, stfu about the x/7--they're beatable). Every stinkin' day there's another "nerf _____" or "ban _____" or "_______ is OP" post.

The game is currently great. I'm still trying to squeeze in some time with all of my new ships.

17 minutes ago, Gadgetron said:

Are defenders competitive without x7? No, so in order to be useful they need it equipped or they wouldn't see play.

I dare do disagree with that, sir.

I saw several Tie/D Defenders in Yavin Open, one of them fighting for TOP8 promotion until the last round (only barely missing TOP8 after loosing the last game to Krzysztof Piszcz who was the highest positioned Rebel player in the swiss). Several Tie/D defenders were also visible in Lothal Open. One of Tie/D lists actually included TWO tie/D defenders and I watched it steamrolling through three games of Hangar bays: The guy flying it lost a total of 24 squad points over the courst of THREE games.

Tey are perfectly viable - it's the imperial players who are the least innovative and the most conservative group in X-wing community. Yes, X7 are easier and stronger. But that doesnt change the fact there is nothing wrong with Tie/D title.

COncur. /D is good. /x7 is just SO much better that it warps the meta to the point where /D doesn't work in most cases, because people have to spec to kill /x7 and anything that kills /x7, kills /D better.

1 minute ago, Voitek said:

Several Tie/D defenders were also visible in Lothal Open. One of Tie/D lists actually included TWO tie/D defenders and I watched it steamrolling through three games of Hangar bays: The guy flying it lost a total of 24 squad points over the courst of THREE games.

Post that list. Now. Meesa want it now. Or ill post some JarJar nudes.

1 minute ago, Gadgetron said:

Are scum ships competitive without mindlink? Yes, they just become far more so with mindlink. So much so, 50% of scum ships use it...

...and - at the risk of repeating myself - 50% is a far cry from "all". In fact, it's no more than half.

What you're seeing there is a trend caused by the unimaginative masses piggybacking on the latest successful list, in the same way that Deadeye was popular for a month or two last year. Before Paratanni Mindlink was seen as "neat, but not amazing". Now it's the latest fad. If (BIG IF) the vast majority of Scum list's are still exclusively using Mindlink in six months time then you MAY have a case for arguing a problem.

Or then again you may not. It's always going to be the case that certain upgrades suit certain ships and pilots more than others. As you pointed out,lots of Imperial lists use Palp. Most Defenders use c7 over the alternative. Soontor and the Inquisitor are never seen without Autothrusters and Push the Limit. Y-Wings love TLTs and Dash loves Kanan and the HLC. This doesn't mean these upgrades are OP, or broken, or in need of a fix. It means they're reliable. Nothing more than that.

PS: people disagreeing with your assessment shouldn't be seen as a personal attack, either.