26 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Yeah, Emon's split decision between titles is unfortunate. If he could equip both, do you think he would see more use?

Maybe, maybe not, it's hard to say. Scum doesn't have the autodamage sabine gives rebels, which is a large part of what makes the triple kwings so good. On the other hand, he can fling bombs around and choose froma large area where to drop them. I've got a bossk emon build that I've had a lot of fun with lately, but having to pay for 2 cluster mines + a proton bomb is a lot of points. If I coul dhave andrasta AND extra munitions I'd save 2 points on the second cluster mine AND get another proton bomb at the same time. Or get 4 cluster mines. Or keep all the bombs + EM and have 6 to drop instead of 3 or 4.

28 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

The disparaging amounts of TIE/D's and x7's I feel is explained in my previous post. TIE/D's are harder to use and require specific combos to work effectively. When given the option, most people are gonna take simple over complex, especially at premier events (wait, I may be using the wrong classification). Anyway, I don't see x7 as better than TIE/D, but it does fit a role that takes less to set up.

Yeah, we saw a sudden shift to Defenders after Imp Vets came out. It was the new hotness and everyone wanted to try them out. But then came lists like triple K-Wings and it became less and less worthwhile to return to older Aces. They might not have been out in force at first, but people saw the first few lists that did well and ran with it. Again, I'm getting most of this from Imperial Players I know. As for the other ships you mentioned that supply beef for imperials, they have their own problems. TIE Advanced: not enough damage out put, and the ATC cost on actions means that only really Vader saw use, but the threat of TLT's make him iffy. TIE/D: Explained before. TIE/sf: I still feel like it is overcoming being pronounced DOA before it's release. But now is now gaining steam, like you said, so we'll have to wait and see where it ends up. TIE Bomber: I think the bomber doesn't see a lot of use because the Empire doesn't have something like Sabine for its bombs. I really feel Sabine is the primary reason why Triple Ks work. That plus no Turret, slam, and less health, it's not seen to be as effective. Which is a shame, because for 26 points, you can have a fun and effective Deathfire to mess up your opponent's day.

As for your last point, perhaps. But I think the more likely outcome would have been less Imperial teams seen. With less viable options, the Empire would start be pushed out of the meta. Something would come along later to fix it, but instead, we already had something to keep Imps in the mix.

I disagre that you really need specific combos to make TIE/D work. Or at the least, nothing more specific than people are already running with things like commonwealth. Vessery is the best carrier for it since he can get TLs for both attacks, but he still uses x7 vastly more often than TIE/D. The PTL Ryad + vessery combo is fairly ideal for having plenty of modifiers for attacks. Alternatively, pairing vessery with pilots that dont' want to spend their TLs like vader or lockdown. The problem with TIE/D is you're spending quite a few more points for a ship that's going to be a lot easier to kill.

I'll grant that defenders were the new hotness after Vets, but that onlyr eally matters when they're also really good. Note the distinct lack of TIE/SFs and Quadjumpers taking over most of the meta right after those ships released. And if new hotness was a ll it was, I'd have expected to see just as much TIE/D.

As for other ships, the tie advanced isn't much worse than the defender for offense. You have to TL first, but then you're getting a guaranteed crit on every attack and rolling 2-3 dice otherwise. You get the same number of dice results as a defender, but one is guaranteed. And as you said, vader was the most common carrier so he could still have a focus to modify (or evade for defense). And the defener is as vulnerable to TLT as vader is (other than 1 extra health). I hope to see more TIE/SFs continue to make their way into the meta now that people seem to be over the idea of forcing it to be a quickraw built to kill himself for free activation phase shots. The bomber...is never going to be used for actual bombs. Just doesn't make sense with only 1 bomb slot (outside of deathfire maybe). But it can still be a munitions carrier. Our (admittedly small) regional had a guy get to the top 4 with 4 bombers. Jonus + 3 more with cluster missiles and plasma or proton torpedoes.

1 minute ago, Punning Pundit said:

The value of R2D2 is very much dependant on the dial of the ship, specifically how many and what speed of Green maneuvers the ship has.

There's a reason we never see R2D2 on a Y-Wing, and why T-65s prefer R5-P9. But if you could assign R2D2 to an A-Wing, you'd end up with a ship that would basically never have to make a suboptimal manuver for the shield regen. It might actually be broken on an Aggressor. And let's all have a horrified laugh at the idea of R2D2 on a Mrk1 Engine Countess Ryad!

So yes, R2D2: good, but probably correctly priced given the variable nature of the value the upgrade provides.

That's why x/7 Defenders lose the missile slot - there's an R2D2 shoved into it!...but yeah Ryad or IG's with R2D2 would be hilariously soul crushing.

Maybe it's just the times when R2 is good, he's often way over the top and that's where my bias is coming from. There's nothing quite like an 8 shield PTL Focus-Evade Corran Horn to ruin your day...

22 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

You can't use a fix card and a (later errata'd nonfix card) to point to the missile slot actually being worth 2 points. The fact that Chardaan IS a fix means you don't know the missile slot is worth 2 points. it just means that the ship needed a 2 point cost decrease and that's where they chose to get it. Maybe the thought was that the missile slot is worth 1 point, and the ship is 1 piont overcosted even after losing the missile slot, so chardaan fixes both. And you can't justify the missile slot being worth 2 points simply from the heavy scyk title because they clearly decided it WASN"T worth 2 points just for th emissile slot on the ship as it was. If the scyk had been a competitive sihp from the start with the heavy scyk title doing only what it does, then MAYBE you could say that.

I think it's _very_ easy to say that in Waves 1-6 they looked at the baseline stats of a ship, came up with a point total, looked at the missile upgrade slot and slapped an extra 2 points onto it.

That doesn't mean that all those missile slots were _worth_ 2 points, just that there was a munitions slot tax on a whole lot of ships, and that made many of them overpriced.

The A-Wing would have been just fine dropping 2 points and keeping the missile slot (while not taking up the mod slot or the title slot). Hard to justify thematically, but it would still work mechanically.

I have no idea why they charged what they did for the M3-A. It's baseline stats are nearly identical to a TIE Fighter, yet it costs a point more (normalizing both to PS1). Maybe they thought the TL on the action bar was worth it? Even with the extra hull on the title, the PS2s are not quite worth the points.

Anyway. Everyone is correct. Missile slots are not worth 2 points, but FFG seems to have charged for them anyway. And now they seem to be walking that back, ship by ship, fixing problems.

14 hours ago, Draconis Hegemonia said:

I see a extensive use of the speed <3 in the X7 Defenders.

Defenders heart speed. This is correct.

3 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

Maybe, maybe not, it's hard to say. Scum doesn't have the autodamage sabine gives rebels, which is a large part of what makes the triple kwings so good. On the other hand, he can fling bombs around and choose froma large area where to drop them. I've got a bossk emon build that I've had a lot of fun with lately, but having to pay for 2 cluster mines + a proton bomb is a lot of points. If I coul dhave andrasta AND extra munitions I'd save 2 points on the second cluster mine AND get another proton bomb at the same time. Or get 4 cluster mines. Or keep all the bombs + EM and have 6 to drop instead of 3 or 4.

I disagre that you really need specific combos to make TIE/D work. Or at the least, nothing more specific than people are already running with things like commonwealth. Vessery is the best carrier for it since he can get TLs for both attacks, but he still uses x7 vastly more often than TIE/D. The PTL Ryad + vessery combo is fairly ideal for having plenty of modifiers for attacks. Alternatively, pairing vessery with pilots that dont' want to spend their TLs like vader or lockdown. The problem with TIE/D is you're spending quite a few more points for a ship that's going to be a lot easier to kill.

I'll grant that defenders were the new hotness after Vets, but that onlyr eally matters when they're also really good. Note the distinct lack of TIE/SFs and Quadjumpers taking over most of the meta right after those ships released. And if new hotness was a ll it was, I'd have expected to see just as much TIE/D.

As for other ships, the tie advanced isn't much worse than the defender for offense. You have to TL first, but then you're getting a guaranteed crit on every attack and rolling 2-3 dice otherwise. You get the same number of dice results as a defender, but one is guaranteed. And as you said, vader was the most common carrier so he could still have a focus to modify (or evade for defense). And the defener is as vulnerable to TLT as vader is (other than 1 extra health). I hope to see more TIE/SFs continue to make their way into the meta now that people seem to be over the idea of forcing it to be a quickraw built to kill himself for free activation phase shots. The bomber...is never going to be used for actual bombs. Just doesn't make sense with only 1 bomb slot (outside of deathfire maybe). But it can still be a munitions carrier. Our (admittedly small) regional had a guy get to the top 4 with 4 bombers. Jonus + 3 more with cluster missiles and plasma or proton torpedoes.

Yeah, fair point on Emon.

i didn't mean to imply there were only like two TIE/D lists. What I meant to say was that in order to get the best results, you need to construct your team around having a TIE/D. You either have to rely heavily on other ships to get you the dice modifications you need to maximize having two shots, which is dangerous because once the supports are gone, you got issues. Or you make the TIE/D as self sufficient as possibly, which costs a lot of points, making it a juicy target. There is two ways that I know of to keep the TIE/D alive. The first is to confuse target priority, make it hard on the enemy to choose who should die first. I've seen this work with putting in OL (who is really bad to end up 1x1 against at the end) and QuickDraw (because his revenge shots might be more then you can take in the end game). The second is by melting the enemy before they can melt you. I have mainly seen this with two TIE/D lists. Some friends practiced with two TIE/D lists and found the most dependable was one invented by Biophysical, featuring Rexler, Maarek, and an Academy Pilot. High PS plus Predator helped take down target before they fired or put them on rocks so they couldn't fire. Another key point is you have to play the TIE/D's game to keep it alive. You have to be cautious. You have to pick your battles and carefully consider what to spend your focus on. And while I find that to be a more rewarding way to fly (though I'm not good at it), that's not for everyone. x7 is simpler to fly (with some hidden complexities), so people reach for it first. All of the Regionals I've been to, the cut went passed midnight. When you are playing all day (multiple days for larger events) simplicity is an asset.

You are right. x7's were strong enough to keep people's attention because it is a strong ship. For the first time, Imp players had a solid ship that could run at the enemy and keep fighting, unlike Aces who had to pick their battles. It was a breath of something new that became more and more favorable as auto damage rose and the threat of new things made Aces less desireable. Look at BMST. Upon reveal, it was quickly held high as the death of PTL Aces. This later kinda fizzled out with out much to see, but it's presence and hype made for reach for a Defender all the more easy. Now, let's skip ahead to now. What do we have? Ketsu, spitting out free tractor token which makes her second tractor token from the title all the more easy. Ventress, and her free stress she hands mostly self-stressing Aces, plus her more liberal use of the mobile arc, which shuts down AT (except for range 3). Quadjumpers who can sidle up and hand you a tractor token. Old Teroch, who can make your token staking all for not. There are some more, but I'm already getting huge blocks of text. Now, none of these are impossible to beat or outmaneuver in a tradition ace. But, one false move, and pop goes the weasel. As the chances of death rose for Aces, Defenders were there with their shiny shields.

New paragraph to quickly touch on your points of the TIE/sf and the Quadjumper. I seem to remember lots of post about how the sf was gonna suck and it was DOA. It took some experimenting to show the ship had potential. Even now, I think the sf is trying to shake off the DOA pronouncement it was saddled with. As for the quad, it popped up in the middle of Parattanni, who's been on everybody's lips of late. It also gives the impression of being more gimmick then ship, so people stick with more established stuff in this time of system opens.

When talking about the Advanced with ATC, it's not just the offense you gotta worry about. No token for defense that opening round means your are trusting Lady Luck to keep you alive, and we all know how fickle she can be. Your enemy sees an Advanced without defensive tokens, they will take the target of opportunity with what guns they can. While not assured destruction, odds are the Advanced is limping away. Compare that to the more expensive X7 defender, who can fire at anyone with three dice without costing an action, with their choice of an action and evade (as long as they went fast). It's not hard to see why the Advanced (a ship who got a fix and still doesn't see much use) usually doesn't match up with the defender well. Now, Vader can over come this. He gets two actions a turn, so he can target lock for ATC and select whatever action seems best at the time. But, without the green turns of the TAP or Interceptor, Vader is susceptible to stress, like what Ventress spits. I could make a whole case for why Defenders too have stress problems even with x7, but that's a side issue. Defenders also have the evade for TLT to help, but there is still a vulnerability if they don't mob the carrier fast enough. (Having Palob in this situation is actually fun to see).

Now, the TIE Bomber. I'll admit, I let the name and my love of Deathfire's shannangans limit my focus of it's ordnance options. You are correct, most of the successful bomber builds I've seen use missiles and torps. I hear some success stories here and there, but not much going higher. I think it suffers from stigma from early life. While it does have 6 health, I always hear about how fragile the bomber is. That's partly true, but I've faced off against them enough to know you have to use most if not all your guns to smash it in one turn. A buddy of mine played around with a four bomber list that was actually quite frightening to behold (especially with my low AGI rebels). I think there is untapped potential in the bombers, but it still lives under the shadow of it's past failures.

PS: I apologize for the length of this one. I'm tired, so I feel like my points are getting more ramble-y.

On 03/03/2017 at 7:51 PM, Jeff Wilder said:

Finally getting around to answering the question of the thread:

IMO, right now, there's very little that needs actual nerfing. If I could choose, I would change:

Zuckuss - Erratum: Prepend "If you are not stressed ... "

Mindlink - Erratum: "Each time you are assigned a focus or stress token, one other friendly ship with Attanni Mindlink, without that type of token, must also be assigned the same type of token."

Just becauseI like the idea, I wouldn't mind seeing:

Palpatine - Erratum: "Once per round, you may change a friendly ship's die result to any other die result, if the friendly ship is beyond Range 3. That die result cannot be modified again."

TIE/x7 - Erratum: Change to take effect on a 4+ speed maneuver.

I'm reserving judgment on I'll Show You the Dark Side.

Your proposed erratum to mindlink doesn't actually do anything at all - it just makes it mildly more fiddly to get all the tokens assigned.

Say you have 3 ships with ML. Currently, 1 gets a token, all get a token.

Under your writing, 1 gets a token, then 2 gets a token from 1's ML, triggering its own ML, giving 3 a token.

There are a lot of issues with the game. However, I don't think banning cards or even banning specific combos, or limiting the amount of times a specific upgrade can be used in a build is the answer. The more I think about it, and the more I see the dominance of Manaroo and the Paratanni lists the more I feel the course correction for x-wing is to change the rules of the game.

Stress is really not a bother anymore to certain lists. If they limit the amount of stress that can be taken, say you start taking damage each round if you have three or more stress on you, then you start to bring Zuckuss and Paratanni back down to earth.

Also, I'd like to see a rule that prohibits any ship from having two focus or evade tokens on them at the same time.

Two, really simple imho, rule changes, and you'd do away with a lot of the hand-wringing and so called "complaint" threads.

On 3/3/2017 at 1:33 PM, Zefirus said:

Bumps don't stop free actions. They only stop the perform action step. A bumping defender will still get their evade, even if it's a free action. The same applies to rocks. If Ryad barrels through a rock, she gets that free evade action, then pushes to get her focus too, because rocks only affect the perform action step.

It would be possible to shut down the Free Evade Action with stress, though. Also, while rocks would not stop it, stress causing debris would stop it.

This would cause an interesting change in /x7 Defenders. Ryad would be as cool as ever, however other Defenders would not be able to "4K to Victory" due to having to reliably remove stress to keep their defenses up. While Paratanni already has a stresser, you may see a resurgence of the stresshog, rebel captive, etc. to counter the heavy presence of /x7's.