I wouldn't even play epic again if I was required to have a huge ship. I really don't care to own them, I have bought and sold off two Raiders and three Gozantis because I just bought them for the alternate paint job ships and upgrades.

I like the idea of epic because it opens up a completely new way of thinking when it comes to list building for me. I think it would be fun to run something thematic like a Lambda Shuttle, flanked by two or three Decimators and some generic TIEs to protect the Imperial officer in the shuttle... and then they get attacked by a Rebel or Scum fleet to try and take out the key target.

Or it could be a raid on a backwater garrison world that doesn't have any huge ships, and are now scrambling to get together all their ships from their planetary outposts to fight off the invaders.

I think forcing people into buying the huge ships is going to make anybody like me never even consider that format of play. Only one guy in my last group owned a huge ship, the rest of us didn't want one. It didn't stop us from playing thematic and fun games with him though, and we all had a blast.

Epic is for Fun, Huge ships should be allowed in Epic but never required. If your list could use a Huge ship take it.

I see absolutely no reason to require Huge ships other than to enforce the specific play you want at the expense of others. Epic opens up the design space to allow things like squadron play. IE actually fielding a fighter screen and bomber wings. I do not need a Corvette to Run A's and Y's and I shouldn't have to give up that style of play. It's the whole point of Epic, EPIC battles.

If you want to require Epic ships, play at home and house rule it. Don't ruin a format.

Requiring a Huge ship in Epic makes as much sense as requiring a large ship in 100 pt matches.

On 3/3/2017 at 10:09 AM, Budgernaut said:

I think that Epic matches should include huge ships. However, I think there should still be space for 300-point dogfights. I think that epic needs to be redefined to being a game where each player takes at least 1 epic point instead of being a 300-point game (or 200-point team game). Then 300-point dogfights can just be an "expanded" format or something where rules aren't different, but the point-cap is increased.

I'm with you. I don't think there really needs to be any argument over this. Perhaps it's just a question of terminology. Epic games include Epic points. Expanded Format (or whatever we decide to call it) are standard games with >100 squad points.

There's a middle ground: give a discount (something like 10% of total points? 5% maybe?) on Epic ships. Encourage it, don't require it.

I know it's not just me, but I think the Title "Epic Play" should mean just that. Epic ships in Play.

Not that I'm likely to anytime soon, but I doubt I would ever go to an epic tournament that didn't have the requirement.

Hell there is a real chance, that if go to such an event and my opponent put down a list that didn't have an Epic ship, I'd probably just hand them my score sheet and go to the bar.

On 2-3-2017 at 11:35 AM, Xerandar said:

If you're going to regulate a beer and pretzels game, start with: more beer

X-Wing Epic play is a beer and pretzels game?

On 3.03.2017 at 4:22 PM, Voitek said:

I think it will mean some slight but still reasonable changes.

For example, Dengar will surely jump on the CROC, but he will be replaced with K4 Security droid with a similar effect. If zuckuss were to go the CROC as well, then you can still put Gunner or IG88D - K4, IG88D and 4Lom is still a very competent crew to run on the Hounds tooth!

If you're not running Bossk pilot, then Bossk crew + IG-D crew + 4LOM is even better

To the OP - I would not go to an event where an Epic ship is not mandatory for Epic play. Without them, it's simply a bloated dogfight. The whole fun in Epic is using the huge ships, trying to keep them alive and either making you fleet work like clockwork via support actions or obliterating the enemy with multiple attacks.

I think it's coll that you can confront huge ships with only small/large ones. It's really satisfying when you can take one down that way

The one epic tournament I played had a single player using an epic ship. He had a good time, but where he got really whipped was when he (inexplicably) tied points destroyed in his first game, so they had to roll off in a final Salvo. His ~160 poit raider only rolled 4 dice, despite being fully armed...

I won't play in epic tournaments if there's a huge ship requirement unless I feel like running a naked transport battering ram and then a normal rest of the squadron.

Yes - At least one Epic ship should be included in the Epic format of play. Makes no sense to me to call a 300 v 300 pt game Epic if none of the ships involved have the swanky Epic symbol on their ship cards.

It certainly makes it easier to enforce / mandate a change to the Epic format when all three factions have Epic ships.

I'd be in favor of developing a 3rd branch of sanctioned play that would not require Epic ships in a 300 v 300 format. That format is fun, no need to completely do away with it.

I'd vote no. Even though I love love love huge ships--- I'd rather then be WORTH taking.

I'd much rather the typical mindset of X-Wing players be "In Epic format I GET to bring a huge ship!" as oppose to "I HAVE to bring a huge ship".

I want them to be so good, that you'd bring them into standard games if the rules allowed.

I'm not sure if it's going to take a huge-ship only upgrade that gives them extra attacks, or what it'll take, but they are slowly making them better each release. They'll get there!

On ‎3‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 6:54 AM, Engine25 said:

The only downside I see to this approach, as some others have said, is you will further reduce the prevalence of the format. It's already difficult to convince casual players to but epic ships, and they are the primary audience of epic play. I know quite a few players who love the format but are unwilling to buy the ships because they won't play them often and they don't really play any of the ships that the epic releases improve.

THIS is why I think FFG need to design more for Epic that is NOT huge ships.

Just as an example, since everyone laments the idea of the Sentinel-class shuttle as OMG like the Empire needs another shuttle, what if the Sentinel-class was designed as a large-base Epic-only ship? It gets Coordinate (a formerly Epic only ability), can equip Epic crew and teams (allowing Tarkin to ride), and features some abilities that are better with large numbers of ships (ala Jabba's abilities).

Make the Senator's Shuttle a cut-down version of the medium transport.

Make a large base freighter a cut-down version of the C-ROC.

Allow all of the ships to have teams and Epic-only crew. Give them wacky abilities that would be broken-ish in 100/6.

Just another example of a huge untapped potential when you only focus on 100/6 design. OTOH, everyone would probably have a meltdown if there was an Epic-only wave.

56 minutes ago, Biff said:

Yes - At least one Epic ship should be included in the Epic format of play. Makes no sense to me to call a 300 v 300 pt game Epic if none of the ships involved have the swanky Epic symbol on their ship cards.

It certainly makes it easier to enforce / mandate a change to the Epic format when all three factions have Epic ships.

I'd be in favor of developing a 3rd branch of sanctioned play that would not require Epic ships in a 300 v 300 format. That format is fun, no need to completely do away with it.

Fleet battle? Wing Battle?Large scale engagement? Trick would be the name. Although making it what Epic previously was, the overlap between the two, could work

2 hours ago, Thormind said:

I think it's cool that you can confront huge ships with only small/large ones. It's really satisfying when you can take one down that way

I think the reverse is even more rewarding: when you can take down a squad of fighters with a huge ship. It just feels like the way it's meant to be.

I wouldnt like this change if only because I like to keep options open. I wouldnt mind specific tournaments having this requirement but I'dd hate it to be an overarching universal requirement.

Having played epic A LOT and also participated in a Epic tournament I can tell you this. I don't think there is a need for a specific rule that says you must bring an epic ship at a tournament. Its very hard to win a tournament match without fielding at least one Epic ship, since most of the matches I ve seen usually end with the majority of small ships destroyed and only the big sticks surviving. A properly modded Epic ship can take down a small base ship a turn usually and also has a support squad of its own. Non epic squads, with maybe the exception of swarms, cannot win against this kind of slow attrition in the time provided. Keep in mind that an epic ship is usually built around 130-140 points and has the ability to regenerate shields. You may try to focus fire on it, but then the support squad going after your small ships will usually kill more points in the same time you focused on the big guy. You may think that 2.5-3 hours is enough time, but when both players have to move more than 5-10 ships, a full turn can take more than 10 minutes with the initial turns even more.

Non tournament matches, epic vs non-epic squad match-ups with unlimited time is a different story though. But unless you don't do the mistake of putting more than 140-150 points MAX on the big guy they can still go both ways.

PS: I did not know there was an Epic meta already.

On 3/6/2017 at 10:46 AM, Kharnvor said:

If Epic tournament play were to be supported at the same level and with the same or comparable prizes as the dogfight tournament format, everybody wins. I honestly think the biggest hindrance to this is time required per game, but I expect there'd be overall fewer players so you won't need as many rounds as 100/6 format.

Well yes and know, more support from OP will be a good thing for Epic, however OP alone doesn't propel a game's popularity enough. Take a look at Armada, it has a more developed meta than X-wing epic, not as much has X-wing competitive, but again X-wing competitive is so popular and built around competitive that the meta is almost solved by the time the next expansion is released. Armada doesn't even come close and that is with OP support.

However I'm with you that OP should do more with Epic format so people won't be calling huge ships the "tournament tax" like they did with the last two corvettes. Heck the Jabba was so underwhelming I am starting to wonder if that is the original, or because of all the flack Emperor Palpatine and C-3PO were getting they decided to make him a rather medium powered card (which is a unforgivable sin for an upgrade card in competitive).

One may argue that the reason Jabba seems underwhelming at 100 points is because there is no cheap platform for him at the moment, like there is for Palpatine. Once the scum get something equivalent to the Lambda Shuttle, you might start seeing scum swarms on the table. Imagine for example if an upgrade card was released for scum, that you could swap the salvaged astromech on the JM for a crew slot and equip Jabba on one of those.

At 300 point Epic format though I see me using him by default!

5 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

THIS is why I think FFG need to design more for Epic that is NOT huge ships.

Just as an example, since everyone laments the idea of the Sentinel-class shuttle as OMG like the Empire needs another shuttle, what if the Sentinel-class was designed as a large-base Epic-only ship? It gets Coordinate (a formerly Epic only ability), can equip Epic crew and teams (allowing Tarkin to ride), and features some abilities that are better with large numbers of ships (ala Jabba's abilities).

Make the Senator's Shuttle a cut-down version of the medium transport.

Make a large base freighter a cut-down version of the C-ROC.

Allow all of the ships to have teams and Epic-only crew. Give them wacky abilities that would be broken-ish in 100/6.

Just another example of a huge untapped potential when you only focus on 100/6 design. OTOH, everyone would probably have a meltdown if there was an Epic-only wave.

Well for that you need some sort of synergistic mechanic for ships that the sum of squadron points will come out to more than 100. Take IG-88 for example. You can only field 2 of them in standard but in Epic you can put all 4 and they become a completely different ship than from their brobots list. The only thing we have that comes close to that is maybe the 4 ARC-170 but still each one of those ships are the same as they are in standard.

What is needed is a squadron title system, Like unique squadron names such as Red 2 and Red 5, and a Leader title that allows them to share title passives or actives. For Y-wing we could have shared astromech capabilities with Gold Leader. The trick is to make sure that they will cost more than 25 points when equipped and that the more of those squadron members the better.

6 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Well for that you need some sort of synergistic mechanic for ships that the sum of squadron points will come out to more than 100. Take IG-88 for example. You can only field 2 of them in standard but in Epic you can put all 4 and they become a completely different ship than from their brobots list. The only thing we have that comes close to that is maybe the 4 ARC-170 but still each one of those ships are the same as they are in standard.

What is needed is a squadron title system, Like unique squadron names such as Red 2 and Red 5, and a Leader title that allows them to share title passives or actives. For Y-wing we could have shared astromech capabilities with Gold Leader. The trick is to make sure that they will cost more than 25 points when equipped and that the more of those squadron members the better.

I agree with everything you said. Part of my idea for the "large Epic ships" would be to create support ships that function similar to the Huge ships, are not allowed in standard play despite the fact that they are large ships, and lower the (cash) price point for entry into Epic play. Maybe they still cost 1 Epic Point, or maybe 0 Epic points but could fulfill the role of mandating an Epic ship, or even 1/2 point (although this game studiously avoids fractions).

I really, really, really hope that Wave XII does more than move existing abilities around to different ships.

I think 25 TIE Fighters are pretty Epic.

5 minutes ago, FlipmodeSH said:

I think 25 TIE Fighters are pretty Epic.

Rules only allow 12, though. So you need some variety in your masses. Pairing them with 8 Interceptors certainly looks awesome and thematic!

3 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

Rules only allow 12, though. So you need some variety in your masses. Pairing them with 8 Interceptors certainly looks awesome and thematic!

That is interesting, didn’t know that. Cheers!

Life just became less Epic, but as you say, still fun options.

In my opinion first we need one 1 card and 1 two cards Epic ships for each faction.

Then this could be...or not, a good idea

no, not every arge battle needs epic ships, what if i just want to run full red + gold squadrons?