6 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

They're what makes Epic a unique experience, IMO. Without them its just kind of an overlong, unfocused game of X-Wing.

Dude, I totally get where you're coming from. For me, the flip side is equally fun and thematic: Rebels launching a fighter assault on an Imperial Raider that has been hounding them in this sector (as an example). There is definitely a place for a pure fighter squad vs. huge ship w/ fighter screen. I would almost always include a huge ship, but I don't think others should be forced to do so.

P.S. I think when you have just a ton of fighters, there is a tendency to just rush at each other like infantry in Runewars Miniatures. It's important to think tactically and tricky. I love the bait and switch with fast, slippery targets, as well as the timely bomb drop to surprise the enemy. Creating fighter groups set up in different areas to converge on the enemy also opens up the battlefield. Man, I want to play 300 points right now!

Just now, Parakitor said:

Dude, I totally get where you're coming from. For me, the flip side is equally fun and thematic: Rebels launching a fighter assault on an Imperial Raider that has been hounding them in this sector (as an example). There is definitely a place for a pure fighter squad vs. huge ship w/ fighter screen. I would almost always include a huge ship, but I don't think others should be forced to do so.

That's what the Rebel Transport and Gozanti are for though. Up to 270 points of fighters is still a pretty good squad after all and a fighter assault is essentially the entire premise of the Gozanti. Transport vs Raider is in general my favorite Epic showdown specifically because it matches the theme you're describing.

4 hours ago, StevenO said:

Gunner on a Huge ship that doesn't have a primary weapon is a huge waste of points. Depending on the secondaries equipped it is even highly questionable on the ships that do have primary attacks. Maybe that isn't what this quoted section is suggestion but I'm seeing CROC and Gunner used in the same line so I'm wondering.

No, he's talking about what to put on the Party Bus if you are to move its usual occupants onto the C-ROC.

7 hours ago, StevenO said:

I'd also go against what seems to be the grain of this discussion and say NO as well. Just because every side now has access to huge ships that is no reason that Huge ship should be a requirement for epic play. To me this is especially true if you are looking at point values below 300 points; it really seems to me like 200 points with 4 large ships or some number of fighters should be a real thing.

As others are pointing out the more recent huge ships are getting better and better. What's this mean? It means that your requirement to have a Huge ship greatly penalizes the rebels whose choices have been around the longest and if you want to say X number of points need to be spent you just magnify the issue.

Gunner on a Huge ship that doesn't have a primary weapon is a huge waste of points. Depending on the secondaries equipped it is even highly questionable on the ships that do have primary attacks. Maybe that isn't what this quoted section is suggestion but I'm seeing CROC and Gunner used in the same line so I'm wondering.

I think we misunderstood each other a bit.

CROC will get the aswesome toys like Zuckuss and Dengar (usually reserved for YV).

VY will just get the less awesome stuff like K$ Security droid (wannabe-Dengar), 4Lom, and a Gunner/IG88D crew in case on mangler Bossk.

All for requiring huge ships. Otherwise don't play epic

2 hours ago, Voitek said:

I think we misunderstood each other a bit.

CROC will get the aswesome toys like Zuckuss and Dengar (usually reserved for YV).

VY will just get the less awesome stuff like K$ Security droid (wannabe-Dengar), 4Lom, and a Gunner/IG88D crew in case on mangler Bossk.

That is probably it and why I tried to make my response more of a clarification and inquiry than an accusation. I wasn't entirely clear on what was being said and I think we all know how "proper" formatting and punctuation to make things clear can disappear at times. Throw in devices which aren't that great at typing on a forum and maybe put a rush on it and things can happen.

YES.

Let me rephrase, YES.

It out another way,

YES.

If you want a 300/6 or 300/12 just go play it.

Tournaments should require 2 Epic points. Period.

Okay so as I suspected it is pretty much split along the lines of yes and no. Also the Team Dogfight format has been brought up as players have a lower point count (200 per player) but teams ending up having a higher point count (6 total). Team Dogfight is the one set up where you can have 2 Raiders vs 2 CR-90s.

So for team there are 3 options.

1. Huge ships are only optional. No player or team is required to have one.
2. At least 1 Huge ship per team. If a player doesn't bring a huge ship, their teammate is required to bring one.
3. 1 huge ship per player.

Then there is also the question on when picking up your first huge ship, do you go with the corvette gunship or support cargoship?

20 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Okay so as I suspected it is pretty much split along the lines of yes and no. Also the Team Dogfight format has been brought up as players have a lower point count (200 per player) but teams ending up having a higher point count (6 total). Team Dogfight is the one set up where you can have 2 Raiders vs 2 CR-90s.

I don't know about that split. I think I'm seeing less "split" here than I did in the "would you play X-Wing if not for the StarWars tie in," thread and that one was about 3:1 with "no" topping "yes" by a significant margin. Maybe there's a lot of repeated "votes" here but it seem the "no" side is in the minority on the thread although that could just be people staying away.

While I may not support a huge requirement for 300 point epic battles I certainly do not support it as a requirement for those team games where each player brings 200 points to the battle for their side. I certainly would NOT require both team mates to have huge ships although if one really thinks an "epic" game MUST have a huge ship then I'd guess one player should be bringing one.

3 hours ago, StevenO said:

I don't know about that split. I think I'm seeing less "split" here than I did in the "would you play X-Wing if not for the StarWars tie in," thread and that one was about 3:1 with "no" topping "yes" by a significant margin. Maybe there's a lot of repeated "votes" here but it seem the "no" side is in the minority on the thread although that could just be people staying away.

While I may not support a huge requirement for 300 point epic battles I certainly do not support it as a requirement for those team games where each player brings 200 points to the battle for their side. I certainly would NOT require both team mates to have huge ships although if one really thinks an "epic" game MUST have a huge ship then I'd guess one player should be bringing one.

Well you are probably right, there isn't that even of a split. Still this isn't really a poll so it is hard to tell what the actual numbers from those in favor compared to those opposed (compared to those who don't care).

However I think FFG is going to take the safe route and just keep things the way they have always been regardless of what other players might want. So for the time being I can see Epic games having the huge ships as only of an option with a limit of Epic points (5 for epic dogfight, 3 per player for team dogfight). But you never know FFG has been funny when adding new things. We all remember the dial fiasco when Most Wanted was released.

The Most Wanted dial "fiasco" eventually came down on the far most logical side with model and dial as a single unit. They could have saved themselves a bunch of cardboard had they realized that earlier.

While I may not be for requiring an epic ship I probably could see putting in a second unit cap on top of the individual ship cap on ships of the same type. I think the intermediate step could be to require at least a "large" ship in the squadrons which could be seen as the command/prize ship should scenarios ever become a thing.

Epic format should have Epic ships with a minimum of at least 2 epic points. The entry to tar is pretty minimal and it's actually a lower barrier to entry than all the expansions one would be required to buy to play with all fighters.

I'd say a minimum of 3 Epic points spent for Epic and 3pts minimum per team in team Epic.

What I would rather see is a severe price reduction where everyone wants to bring the beautiful corvettes out because they rock. Or just give 'em Expertise and call it a day.

1 hour ago, gamblertuba said:

I'd say a minimum of 3 Epic points spent for Epic and 3pts minimum per team in team Epic.

What I would rather see is a severe price reduction where everyone wants to bring the beautiful corvettes out because they rock. Or just give 'em Expertise and call it a day.

That would be too much to ask, not only do you make the bar to epic higher with a mandatory purchase of a $100 expansion pack (when someone has already spent $200 on their standard stuff) but you also exclude all the other huge ships and lock the scum faction out of epic (again). Now sure as it has been pointed out you can get a lot of point fillers for epic for the amount of money you would have spent on other expansion packs. however just slapping say "expertise on it and calling it a day will not work for numerous reasons. Also a $65 price tag is rather steep if you are going to ask people to purchase no less than two (for doubile transport/gozanti/c-roc lists).

Further more you would want other players to bring in those smaller single card huge ships because those are often the preferred targets of the corvette gunships. Sure Gunships cannot withstand the masses of starfighters that will swarm them and block out the sun. But they are more than a match for a little transport that was there to jam the waves of smaller ships.

2 hours ago, Marinealver said:

That would be too much to ask, not only do you make the bar to epic higher with a mandatory purchase of a $100 expansion pack (when someone has already spent $200 on their standard stuff) but you also exclude all the other huge ships and lock the scum faction out of epic (again). Now sure as it has been pointed out you can get a lot of point fillers for epic for the amount of money you would have spent on other expansion packs. however just slapping say "expertise on it and calling it a day will not work for numerous reasons. Also a $65 price tag is rather steep if you are going to ask people to purchase no less than two (for doubile transport/gozanti/c-roc lists).

Further more you would want other players to bring in those smaller single card huge ships because those are often the preferred targets of the corvette gunships. Sure Gunships cannot withstand the masses of starfighters that will swarm them and block out the sun. But they are more than a match for a little transport that was there to jam the waves of smaller ships.

It doesn't lock scum out of epic, but it WOULD require you to purchase (and run) 2 c-rocs to get over 3 epic points

10 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

It doesn't lock scum out of epic, but it WOULD require you to purchase (and run) 2 c-rocs to get over 3 epic points

It does lock scum out of team epic where the limit is 3 points (unless you raise it to 4). But yeah it would make the smaller ships rarer which is the food for the corvettes thus making them disappear.

1 huge ship should be the only additional requirement, restricting it to a specific kind of huge ship would be counterproductive.

The CROC is really cost efficient, for the downside of being PS1.

The other epic ships could really use a few upgrades to boost them up a bit. Gozanti is underwhelming, the Transport is basically best when under 45 points, as it doesn't shoot. These really need a bit of extra help.

I'm all for required 2 epic points in 300.

And I don't think its quite split. Do a count up, but i think its aobut 66% in favor of requiring an Epic.

2 hours ago, Marinealver said:

It does lock scum out of team epic where the limit is 3 points (unless you raise it to 4). But yeah it would make the smaller ships rarer which is the food for the corvettes thus making them disappear.

1 huge ship should be the only additional requirement, restricting it to a specific kind of huge ship would be counterproductive.

Doesn't lock em out there. They said min 3 points per team for team epic, so each person on the team can (and would have to) take a croc

4 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

The CROC is really cost efficient, for the downside of being PS1.

The other epic ships could really use a few upgrades to boost them up a bit. Gozanti is underwhelming, the Transport is basically best when under 45 points, as it doesn't shoot. These really need a bit of extra help.

I'm all for required 2 epic points in 300.

And I don't think its quite split. Do a count up, but i think its aobut 66% in favor of requiring an Epic.

Actually I don't think the PS 1 is that much of a downside. Sure it will shoot last but with a single hardpoint that is hardly a concern. Thing is out of all the huge ships it moves first. Which is big as it will be the first to ram anything. IMHO PS1 is better than PS3 for a huge ship.

Me and friend got together yesterday for a 300 point Epic match up with the caveat that MUST have at least 1 Epic ship.

I chose the Gozanti and used up EVERY slot (naturally) whilst my friend took a transport and almost did the same.

It was a good match! Came down to a single Bomber and the Gozanti ramming into a Transport. Nothing else was left on the field! However, that being said, most of the damage was caused by Assault Missiles and the Epic ships did very little.

Now that may have been because the Gozanti could only offer a single shot, 3 red dice attack, which compared to the rest of my list was sub=par at best, even with a target lock AND gunnery team for modifications whilst the transport did nothing but co-ordinate.

Next time, it will be the Raider v C-ROC but i think the four mindlinked IG88 he intends to take may be the swinging factor as opposed to the C-ROC.

I mean, come on:

C-ROC:
Zuckuss, Latts Razi, Heavy Laser Turret, Gunnery Team, Supercharged Cells, Insatiable Wort

IG88A + B + C + D
Mindlink, FCS, HLC, title, AT

2 x Tansanarii Point Veterans
Mindlink + Light Title

Serissu
Mindlink + Heavy Title + Flechette Cannon
300 points

This list has more focus than Zenyatta on his most focused day of his life whist using an automatic focusing machine.

The only downside I see to this approach, as some others have said, is you will further reduce the prevalence of the format. It's already difficult to convince casual players to but epic ships, and they are the primary audience of epic play. I know quite a few players who love the format but are unwilling to buy the ships because they won't play them often and they don't really play any of the ships that the epic releases improve.

5 hours ago, Engine25 said:

The only downside I see to this approach, as some others have said, is you will further reduce the prevalence of the format. It's already difficult to convince casual players to but epic ships, and they are the primary audience of epic play. I know quite a few players who love the format but are unwilling to buy the ships because they won't play them often and they don't really play any of the ships that the epic releases improve.

Yeah it is that feedback loop or catch 22 what ever you call it:

1. People don't buy huge ships because they don't play epic enough because..
2. Not enough people buy huge ships to play epic because...

So many people give FFG $#!7 because they put cards that can be used in standard in huge ship expansions and since so many of those cards have proven to be tournament winning (Emperor Palpatine, C-3P0) they claim that it is a scam to get players to spend money on the big ship that they don't need. Well if all you are interested is tournament play that may be the case but I don't sympathize with those players at all. The main reason to include ship fixes and good upgrades that can go with standard is to break that catch 22. So the players that do pick up the huge ships won't be wasting money if they don't play epic enough because they did get something for their purchase that works with standard competitive formats which happens to be the most common format.

If Epic tournament play were to be supported at the same level and with the same or comparable prizes as the dogfight tournament format, everybody wins. I honestly think the biggest hindrance to this is time required per game, but I expect there'd be overall fewer players so you won't need as many rounds as 100/6 format.

On 02/03/2017 at 9:49 AM, DagobahDave said:

Yes, should be required.

Generally, I'm in favor of more "musts" and "cannots" in FFG's tournament formats.

The naked 2EP ships are so cheap I don't think it'd change much.

Your anti-spam rule (maximum of 2 copies of any non-unique card) would be very interesting though and would handily solve the problem of generic spam being too powerful in Epic.

On 3/5/2017 at 11:42 AM, Blail Blerg said:

The other epic ships could really use a few upgrades to boost them up a bit. Gozanti is underwhelming,

Yes, they could use some upgrades, but in my experience the Gozanti is anything but underwhelming. Then again, that's really just one really good combo that comes up again and again: Suppressor and Grand Moff Tarkin.