From your point of view, perhaps.

10 hours ago, Daronil said:

EDIT TO ADD: Actually, having just spotted SEApocalypse's video of "Rebels" up there, that reminded me. SWR is a demonstration of what I'm talking about - they often make a big deal of "capturing the proton bombs" being necessary to saving the Phoenix cell. Then they have a mission where they steal, like, ten proton bombs. TEN bombs? Hardly a game-changer in the grand scheme of things, but reflective of the "PC / Main Character Microcosm". We see a tiny representation of the large scale - it humanises it and makes it relatable.

Nice idea and all. It just discredited by the fact that ANH explicitly stated that 30 Rebel Fighters started from Yavin 4 and that's it. 30 fighters, 3 squadrons, which are not even fully staffed against Vader's squadron which is just his escort from his ISD, while the death star itself has no fighters at all permanently stationed on it. R1 emphasised this even more as we see that the DS1 is runs basically right to battle from weapon tests, before fully operational or handed over to the imperial navy.

In this regard R1 is quite interesting, because it makes clear what was assumed long ago, that the control over the death star was Tarkin's pet project, something he sized control over and did not wanted to share with anyone else. And thus no navy escort nor larger fighter screen.

To add to that, Rebels latest episode make clear how much of a big deal for the other rebel cells are few military victories pheonix cell had. Not necessary in only in a good way, but pretty significant.

Where do you get that the Death Star had no fighter complement of it's own?

10 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

That's actually one of my issues with Rogue One's space battle. Who are these people, and why should I care about them?

As mentioned above, Red and Gold Leader, but also any number of characters. Admiral Raddus (who serves as an excellent Admiral Ackbar surrogate, especially given his appearance being totally different to any previous Mon Calamari, making him a good palate-cleanser). The original Red Five, whose deaths tugs interestingly on the heart strings on account of it being the death of someone who shares a name with a much-loved character. The characters whose faces we see, as mentioned, but also just those who're flying X-Wings, a character trait that's endearing to pretty much any Star Wars fan.

25 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

That theory fails to explain clone troopers.

They were all sporting customised armour as the series went on and you got to know certain troopers, and that was a large part in making them more sympathetic, as they all seem that much more unique and human.

Aside from Raddus, who gets a few lines, there's no distinct characterization at all in anything you mention. Those aren't characters, they're just props. That's why I don't give a **** about them.

4 minutes ago, ColonelCommissar said:

They were all sporting customised armour as the series went on and you got to know certain troopers, and that was a large part in making them more sympathetic, as they all seem that much more unique and human.

But the specific argument was that it's about the faces. And clone troopers spend a lot of time with their faces hidden under their helmets, yet they aren't the bad guys.

21 minutes ago, ColonelCommissar said:

Admiral Raddus (who serves as an excellent Admiral Ackbar surrogate, especially given his appearance being totally different to any previous Mon Calamari, making him a good palate-cleanser).

Wow, that's like saying that Lando was a palate-cleanser since his appearance was totally different to any previously depicted human in SW.

31 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Where do you get that the Death Star had no fighter complement of it's own?

None were launched ever. Only Vader's guys seen in ANH.

18 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Aside from Raddus, who gets a few lines, there's no distinct characterization at all in anything you mention. Those aren't characters, they're just props. That's why I don't give a **** about them.

1

Fair enough, though I'd say there's also a distinct lack of characterisation in any other character outside of the main set seen in the OT (I believe Porkins was cited earlier, and he receives about as much characterisation as R1's Red Five.

18 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

But the specific argument was that it's about the faces. And clone troopers spend a lot of time with their faces hidden under their helmets, yet they aren't the bad guys.

From a certain point of view they are of course. But when they all have the same face, the armour works well to identify them, ironically enough.

1 minute ago, HappyDaze said:

Wow, that's like saying that Lando was a palate-cleanser since his appearance was totally different to any previously depicted human in SW.

Ok, I can appreciate that may have come out wrong, but I intended it to reflect the fact that most aliens in science fiction generally look identical to all their fellows save for a few very minor changes when compared to the variety we see in humans. Raddus is a new version of a familiar species based on our own understanding of marine biology, it's an interesting change.

11 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Wow, that's like saying that Lando was a palate-cleanser since his appearance was totally different to any previously depicted human in SW.

You mean the mustache, right?

7 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

None were launched ever. Only Vader's guys seen in ANH.

I don't think there's anything definitive about them being Vader's in the movie. They're not referred to as his squad or anything like that. All we see is some dude reporting the attack to Vader, who then says "We'll have to destroy them ship to ship. Get the crews to their fighters. " Not my crews, or my squad, but the crews.

11 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

None were launched ever. Only Vader's guys seen in ANH.

Just because you didn't see it, doesn't mean it shouldn't be there when it makes sense. We also never see bathrooms on the Death Star, but I like to believe that they had them.

11 minutes ago, ColonelCommissar said:

Fair enough, though I'd say there's also a distinct lack of characterisation in any other character outside of the main set seen in the OT (I believe Porkins was cited earlier, and he receives about as much characterisation as R1's Red Five.

Sure, but that doesn't make it good storytelling. Maybe the makers were trying to emulate A New Hope in that regard, but in that case they were emulating a weakness.

11 minutes ago, ColonelCommissar said:

From a certain point of view they are of course. But when they all have the same face, the armour works well to identify them, ironically enough.

I wouldn't ever call them bad guys. They're victims, through and through. Child soldiers with mind-control chips in their heads that force them to follow orders to kill their friends.

Just now, HappyDaze said:

Just because you didn't see it, doesn't mean it shouldn't be there when it makes sense. We also never see bathrooms on the Death Star, but I like to believe that they had them.

So we imagine a thousand starfighters, never seen on screen, transfered somewhere in the middle of chaos to the death star which jumps immediately after destroying the archives on scariff to Alderaan. There was never a moment when fighters could have transferred. They were never seen. And it makes no sense to have all those fighters and never launch them.

Just because you assume that there should be fighter does not mean there should be, when it doesn't make sense. ;-)

3 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

So we imagine a thousand starfighters, never seen on screen, transfered somewhere in the middle of chaos to the death star which jumps immediately after destroying the archives on scariff to Alderaan. There was never a moment when fighters could have transferred. They were never seen. And it makes no sense to have all those fighters and never launch them.

Just because you assume that there should be fighter does not mean there should be, when it doesn't make sense. ;-)

I still put faith in the old guides to the Death Stars. Nothing has come out since that puts the same level of details into detailing them. Also, as the DS I's super-laser is the last component installed, there is no reason its hangars were not filled well before it arrived at Scariff.

Wait. How do we know it goes directly to Alderaan?

3 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

the death star which jumps immediately after destroying the archives on scariff to Alderaan.

Does it?

2 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

That theory fails to explain clone troopers.

I disagree. All through TCW we see various Clone Troopers who have individualised names, armour decoration, and hairstyles to distinguish them.

Rex, Tup, Fives, Wolffe, Echo...they were all quite unique.

36 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Wait. How do we know it goes directly to Alderaan?

Occam's Razor.

Vader chased the Tantive IV to Tatooine and one day later Han, the guy who made the Kessel Run in 12 Parsecs was already on the way to Alderaan. Tarkin is supposed to have orders to destroy Alderaan regardless of Leia's cooperation.

Which leaves the slower Death Star not really much time to get to Alderaan before Han arrives.

1 hour ago, SEApocalypse said:

So we imagine a thousand starfighters, never seen on screen, transfered somewhere in the middle of chaos to the death star which jumps immediately after destroying the archives on scariff to Alderaan. There was never a moment when fighters could have transferred. They were never seen. And it makes no sense to have all those fighters and never launch them.

Just because you assume that there should be fighter does not mean there should be, when it doesn't make sense. ;-)

In Tarkin's first appearance you can make out TIEs transitting across the Death Star's equator while the Superlaser is installed. Furthermore, they're surrounded by Star Destroyers. Either those TIEs were part of the Death Star's organic fighter wing, or they launched from the Star Destroyers and landed on the Death Star. Regardless, the Death Star had those TIEs.

I'd also point out that the real reason we never see the Death Star's vast fighter wing is because we're attempting to impose in-universe logic on a film made in 1977. Didn't it take two years or something to film the space battle?

Just now, SEApocalypse said:

Occam's Razor.

Vader chased the Tantive IV to Tatooine and one day later Han, the guy who made the Kessel Run in 12 Parsecs was already on the way to Alderaan. Tarkin is supposed to have orders to destroy Alderaan regardless of Leia's cooperation.

Which leaves the slower Death Star not really much time to get to Alderaan before Han arrives.

Do we know how long the Devastator is chasing the Tantive IV? It's possible that Tatooine isn't the first stop and that chase could have gone on for quite awhile.

Just now, ColonelCommissar said:

I'd also point out that the real reason we never see the Death Star's vast fighter wing is because we're attempting to impose in-universe logic on a film made in 1977. Didn't it take two years or something to film the space battle?

Agreed. If Lucas had limitless time and money, I have no doubt that the DS would have had more fighters shown on screen, and the Rebels would have had a larger force too.

Just now, HappyDaze said:

Do we know how long the Devastator is chasing the Tantive IV? It's possible that Tatooine isn't the first stop and that chase could have gone on for quite awhile.

Possible. Unlikely. The rebels had not even time to replace Red 5 when Luke arrives at Yavin and Leia's mission was to pick up Kenobi. Furthermore Tatooine is close by, multiple jumps seem in that context unlikely.

3 minutes ago, ColonelCommissar said:

Either those TIEs were part of the Death Star's organic fighter wing, or they launched from the Star Destroyers and landed on the Death Star. Regardless, the Death Star had those TIEs.

´Why should the TIEs been transferred to the death star? They were on patrol duty of the construction site and that's it. A normal job for the imperial navy, which the death star was not part off.

The Death Star sent a fighter out to do recon in the remains of Alderaan and also sent some after the Falcon. Those were never described as being part of Vader's squadron in the sources that say Vader used his own squadron for the BoY.

17 minutes ago, Daronil said:

I disagree. All through TCW we see various Clone Troopers who have individualised names, armour decoration, and hairstyles to distinguish them.

Rex, Tup, Fives, Wolffe, Echo...they were all quite unique.

But whether they're unique isn't the issue, it's helmets.

1 minute ago, SEApocalypse said:

Occam's Razor.

Vader chased the Tantive IV to Tatooine and one day later Han, the guy who made the Kessel Run in 12 Parsecs was already on the way to Alderaan. Tarkin is supposed to have orders to destroy Alderaan regardless of Leia's cooperation.

Which leaves the slower Death Star not really much time to get to Alderaan before Han arrives.

Well, we actually don't know how long there was between Vader intercepting the Tantive IV and the Falcon arriving at Alderaan. I would say, however, that it's a lot more than a single day. The droids eject and land on Tatooine. They separate and are captured by the Jawas. We know there is at least one night between their arrival on Tatooine and their arrival at the Lars homestead. Luke then cleans up the droids, discovers the recording, has dinner, and Own shuts down the power. That's at least two nights. The next morning, Luke goes off to find R2D2, meets Obi-Wan, and goes back to his homestead. Not definitive, but it looks like they may well have spent the night at Obi-Wan's ("It's late, I'm in for it as it is!" - this after we learn that if he hasn't had the units on the south ridge repaired by midday there'll be hell to pay). So definitely at least two nights, maybe more. Then they discover the dead Jawas, Luke finds the homestead destroyed, and they head off for Mos Eisley. Between "It's late" and arriving in Mos Eisley, there has to be at least another night, so we're up to at least three now, quite possibly more.

Meanwhile, the Devastator has arrived back at the DS, where there is time for Vader to interrogate Leia. We don't know exactly how much time is spent on this, but I think it's safe to say at least a day or so. With her "resistance to the mind probe" being "considerable", Tarkin comes up with his "alternative form of persuasion" and orders course set for Alderaan. This occurs between Han and Greedo's confrontation, and the general search of Mos Eisley, where the droids are hiding out.

We don't know where the Death Star was at the beginning of ANH - just as we don't know exactly how long there was between the end of R1 and the beginning of ANH. There could easily be a period of a day or more, with the Devastator following the Tantive IV to Tatooine while the DS jumps anywhere from Scarif to the Core. If the DS rendezvoused with the Devastator somewhere between Tatooine and Alderaan, then spent another day or two hanging about while torturing Leia, then it may have jumped to Alderaan with a bit of a headstart, but not much. Alderaan was destroyed while the Falcon was en-route.