Shuttle Tydirium Episode 42: State of the Game Podcast

Listen to it via the website here!

Welcome aboard the shuttle tydirium podcast for episode 42! This week, we bid farewell to Chief Engineer Jake, who finally managed to sneak a transfer request past J-Bot! We'll also chat for a cool hour or so about the STATE OF X-WING! We get a little cranky at some points, so please remember that we all love this game so much that we spend a lot of out personal time promoting it in this podcast. Also, we talk about ways to keep enjoying the game regardless of what changes in the future. Enjoy!

Chief Engineer's Question: 10:45

Check us out on the Facebook!

Email us! [email protected]

==================================

I was a little hesitant to do this episode. I was worried about being too negative. I wanted to let people vent and complain for a while and then pull it back to "but we play casual!" I think I let the venting go on for too long. Personally, I think it's a great time to play Casual X-wing. There are a ton of ships and a ton of ways to play the game. You don't have to fall into the trap of power combos. Just have fun with it.

Let me know what you think!

16 minutes ago, Joe Boss Red Seven said:

We pulled it around by the end, right...????

8 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

We pulled it around by the end, right...????

I think the game is in a great spot right now, best it's been in a while. I also don't subscribe to the casual/competitive false dichotomy.

But you do you

11 minutes ago, Chumbalaya said:

I think the game is in a great spot right now, best it's been in a while. I also don't subscribe to the casual/competitive false dichotomy.

But you do you

Casual to me means anything other than 100/6. So, I do believe in other than that. I believe most players play both casual and competitive. I don't believe it's one or the other for most people.

12 minutes ago, Chumbalaya said:

I think the game is in a great spot right now, best it's been in a while. I also don't subscribe to the casual/competitive false dichotomy.

But you do you

I agree that it's in a great spot. I love that all the new ships are ships from the tv shows and the new movies and not ones from books or video games I've never heard of. I think the reason why every podcast is hooked onto this subject is the burnout caused by the extended tournament season.

I also think if they simply didn't call them condition cards and just kept them as reference cards people wouldn't be calling for FFG heads when they released those.

40 minutes ago, Chumbalaya said:

I think the game is in a great spot right now, best it's been in a while.

I totally agree.

As for the episode, I enjoyed it. I was hoping for a little more point-counter point when talking about the state of the game, but it was more of a point-point-point, STOP, counter point-counter point-counter point. It still ended on a positive note, and I'm getting really excited to hear more about this GenCon campaign!

4 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

I totally agree.

As for the episode, I enjoyed it. I was hoping for a little more point-counter point when talking about the state of the game, but it was more of a point-point-point, STOP, counter point-counter point-counter point. It still ended on a positive note, and I'm getting really excited to hear more about this GenCon campaign!

We are pretty excited about it, too! We have been doing some play testing and the very first mission is really fun. I think it needs some tweaks for balance, but it's really close. I think these add different aspects to the game. I can't wait to reveal them and talk about them.

1 hour ago, Chumbalaya said:

I think the game is in a great spot right now, best it's been in a while. I also don't subscribe to the casual/competitive false dichotomy.

But you do you

I think one of the first things we talked about in the podcast (~episode 1), was the whole competitive/casual language and what it means. I think we all agree in the podcast crew that it is very rare to have a player be entirely competitive or entirely casual, as we define the terms. Most people love star wars and love having a fun, hard-fought battle with starfighters on the tabletop. Some like the tournament-oriented aspect of play more than others. We're oriented toward the casual aspects of the game because we feel they're important and under-served.

For better or worse, the talk about missions and objectives makes me really excited for Runewars.

I'm listening in this morning... I'm nearly through.

JBot sounds a bit of grumpy... and firing from the hip. The key thing, had he got to that point a bit faster and more focused, was the evolution of the game. That... is a tricky subject. I've come from other long lasting (non-GW) miniature games and due to expansions over the (many) years you have the exact same problems. Power creep, rule complexity, old testament vs new testament timeline arguments between the classic fan base vs the new order fan base... X-Wing is not experiencing a single problem that's unique to this system. X-Wing is growing at a rapid pace so people are seeing these things evolve faster.

Phil is correct - introducing the scenarios is a huge method of controlling the balance problem that's evolving. It doesn't eliminate all this stuff, but it puts controlling factors to mitigate the problem. "This scenario is classic Rebellion era, Rebel forces are attacking an Imperial shipyard." The scenario is creating a controlled situation. It can limit ships and crews to what is appropriate - and therefor at least marginally balanced to that scenario. These controlled scenarios are the mainstay at gaming events for this other game I speak of. There are the 1vs1 death matches, but that's a side event where a much smaller crowd. Currently X-Wing has a reversed event structure by comparison.

Ultimately, I'm not even saying that the current event structure is wrong. A game needs to draw new players and retain current players or it shrinks and dies. It doesn't matter how good the game is, if nobody plays it any more it's done. Basements work only for your own group, but eventually groups move on to other games and then your basement is cluttered with nostalgic game pieces never used. Expansions are a way to draw excitement on release - draws new players and retains old players. It has to be done right... FFG has done a pretty good job, though not perfect. They've flat out got some things wrong. They do need to do something to return classic Star Wars ships to the tables in the tournament scene, and I expect they will. How they will do it is something I won't venture to guess - too many of us are and for some people it shows their lack of experience in game design.

Is the game in a good spot? Perspectives.... As a Star Wars fan... Not so much. The best ships are almost all from the EU. Normal film TIEs are fading. The classic Rebel starfighters are suffering. Y-Wings are the exception, and then because of the quite un-thematic TLT. From a gaming perspective? Yes, actually... The variety of lists that can do fly in any game scenario in a competitive manner (note - not saying tournament scene!) is actually gone up. The top lists are a little broken, but there are variations of each that make them different as well.

1:31:30 -- The literal ban-hammer.

24 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Is the game in a good spot? Perspectives.... As a Star Wars fan... Not so much. The best ships are almost all from the EU. Normal film TIEs are fading. The classic Rebel starfighters are suffering. Y-Wings are the exception, and then because of the quite un-thematic TLT. From a gaming perspective? Yes, actually... The variety of lists that can do fly in any game scenario in a competitive manner (note - not saying tournament scene!) is actually gone up. The top lists are a little broken, but there are variations of each that make them different as well.

In the "Star Wars fan Perspective", then, the only way to be in a sweet spot, is to have the meta stagnated in the same ships for 5 consecutive years?

I think that in the perspective of a "simple" star wars fan, if the "variety of lists that can do fly in any game scenario in a competitive manner (note - not saying tournament scene!)" is high, with their most loved ships in it, the game is quite fine.

And in a game scenario (not tournament competitive), lambdas, falcons, ties, advanceds, interceptors, bombers, X wings, Y wings, B wings and A wings, are perfectly playables.

Of course, there always be people who doesn't feel good with the game if his favourite ship is not the most used in the competitive meta.

But for a common SW fan (one with more than only tournament expectations), I think that the game could be in a pretty good shape right now.

8 minutes ago, Draconis Hegemonia said:

In the "Star Wars fan Perspective", then, the only way to be in a sweet spot, is to have the meta stagnated in the same ships for 5 consecutive years?

I think that in the perspective of a "simple" star wars fan, if the "variety of lists that can do fly in any game scenario in a competitive manner (note - not saying tournament scene!)" is high, with their most loved ships in it, the game is quite fine.

And in a game scenario (not tournament competitive), lambdas, falcons, ties, advanceds, interceptors, bombers, X wings, Y wings, B wings and A wings, are perfectly playables.

Of course, there always be people who doesn't feel good with the game if his favourite ship is not the most used in the competitive meta.

But for a common SW fan (one with more than only tournament expectations), I think that the game could be in a pretty good shape right now.

It's not a B&W answer. I didn't say, there shalt not be EU. Stagnation is death, I said so in the same post. New expansions breathe life into the game. I said that the game in general was in a good state, so I don't see where you took issue with what I said.

If we approach this from another angle - if this wasn't a Star Wars game, we called these torpedo boat type X, and torpedo boat type Y... I would likely have less to complain about... I don't have the emotional connection. I don't have the nostalgic connection. Thus, on the gaming level, the game is at an ok state - but still not perfect because boat type X isn't worth taking. The fact that many different types of boats are worth taking indicates the game is ok.

The balance issues are still a problem with those ships though, they simply cannot compete at the same high level. This imbalance impacts casual play as well - don't deceive yourself. If lists are built in a controlled environment for specific scenarios you can control the impact... but most people in the casual scene don't run controlled scenarios where one person creates both lists. Most people grab their favourite ships and throw them on the board and play. I know I prefer to create my own lists with my own flare. I've played in ONE X-Wing game where both the lists were pre-designed by one person... and I made both lists for an introduction to epic play at the local shop.

If you do an FFG mission, and you drop in Dengar/Manaroo as your list... Depending on that scenario objectives you probably will beat the poor sap who brought 2 X-Wings and Lando. What did they do wrong? They played casual with their favourite ships outside tournament play and still got stomped by a power list. Is the answer to ban ships from casual play? No! That denies the guy who likes flying those terrible Jumpmasters because that's what he enjoys. I am however using this as a perfectly possible showing of how balance impacts casual play.

Again... the game is in pretty good shape. Not perfect. The shame is that the points that the balance is currently hurting is those ships that drew most of the people into the game in the first place.

27 minutes ago, Draconis Hegemonia said:

In the "Star Wars fan Perspective", then, the only way to be in a sweet spot, is to have the meta stagnated in the same ships for 5 consecutive years?

That's not what he is saying. He's saying that there should at least be SOME of the original ships still played a lot in and out of tournaments. I don't disagree. It doesn't mean that you can only fly old ships, but it does mean that the older ships shouldn't be so bad that they are not really viable in a competitive game.

Quote

I think that in the perspective of a "simple" star wars fan, if the "variety of lists that can do fly in any game scenario in a competitive manner (note - not saying tournament scene!)" is high, with their most loved ships in it, the game is quite fine.

I only play Casual, but I do know there are a lot of other people out there that have a hard time finding casual games. They only know people who want to play tournament level. So....it can be hard to actually find games with their most beloved ship. I do feel bad for those people.

Okay, one thing that has come up again, and again is the lack of original trilogy starships on the table. I'd like to offer a counterpoint to that idea. When I went to GenCon last year, I knew I wanted to pick up two TIE/sf fighters. But when I got to the front of the line, they said, "Hey, there's enough here that you can buy two of each, if you like," so I also bought an ARC-170, two Protectorate Starfighters, and the Shadowcaster. Since August of last year, the Protectorate starfighters and Shadowcaster had never hit my table top - until I finally got to see Star Wars: Rebels Season 2 and watched the episodes they star in. I knew that if I could just see them in action I'd love to put them on the table, and that's exactly what happened. The day after we watched that episode, my kids and I pulled those ships out and pit them against the Ghost, Phantom, and an A-wing, and it was awesome!

I think the core set gets people hooked, but a Star Wars fan who doesn't recognize a ship is more likely to find out where it's from, than to say, "Eh, I don't recognize it so I don't care about it." Sometimes it's not the stories getting people into X-wing, it's X-wing getting people exposed to the braoder Star Wars stories. And I think that's pretty cool! (Even if it is a less common occurrence)

33 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

Okay, one thing that has come up again, and again is the lack of original trilogy starships on the table. I'd like to offer a counterpoint to that idea. When I went to GenCon last year, I knew I wanted to pick up two TIE/sf fighters. But when I got to the front of the line, they said, "Hey, there's enough here that you can buy two of each, if you like," so I also bought an ARC-170, two Protectorate Starfighters, and the Shadowcaster. Since August of last year, the Protectorate starfighters and Shadowcaster had never hit my table top - until I finally got to see Star Wars: Rebels Season 2 and watched the episodes they star in. I knew that if I could just see them in action I'd love to put them on the table, and that's exactly what happened. The day after we watched that episode, my kids and I pulled those ships out and pit them against the Ghost, Phantom, and an A-wing, and it was awesome!

I think the core set gets people hooked, but a Star Wars fan who doesn't recognize a ship is more likely to find out where it's from, than to say, "Eh, I don't recognize it so I don't care about it." Sometimes it's not the stories getting people into X-wing, it's X-wing getting people exposed to the braoder Star Wars stories. And I think that's pretty cool! (Even if it is a less common occurrence)

Totally agree. And I would love to see Phoenix Squadron pilots, the Hammerhead corvette, and Blue Squadron X-Wings for the exact same reasons.

OTOH, Star Wars has been a part of my life since 1977. During the Dark Times, all I had to keep the dream alive was WEG, Decipher, and Bantam novels. (Never been much of a video game buff, but did play X-Wing and TIE Fighter.) So, I am equally excited to see things like the Mist Hunter and IG-2000 hit the table in 3-D. I would still like to see Chiss Clawcraft, the Slave II, and lots of other EU ships come out as well. Legends was Star Wars for me for a very long time, and while I understand the need to allow creative freedom for all the new movies, I'm saddened that old favorites like Jacen and Jaina Solo are just plain gone, and Mara Jade exists in a quasi-twilight of what-once-was-but-could-be-again.

I would love the see Prequel ships hit the table.

In the long run, I think it would be smart for FFG to start enforcing the subfactions more. . .this tournament is the Galactic Civil War, this one is Clone Wars, this one is just after the fall of the Empire. It would encourage alternate list building, allow more ships to shine, as well as give a sense of story behind what you are seeing on the table.

Loved the Podcast, as usual....guess I'm a honk.

Anyway, I think creativity is needed to insure the game keeps moving along. I think if we list out things that most all players (purchasers) can agree on, then FFG will have the recipe to keep the game healthy and vibrant. I want to beat a dead horse on two big issues:

1) Ships old and new: We all love the Star Wars ships; that's essentially what is the magnet of the game, the ships and pilots that express our fandom be it the original trilogy, the recent films, the books, or the cartoons. Yes the heart of the Star Wars game is, by FFGs very tag line on the Forum page, the Core Game propaganda and the Movies that spawned all the other SW fair: "take control of powerful Rebel X-wings and nimble Imperial TIE fighters!" This must be brought back to the competitive fore, just like the Jedi are to bring balance to the force. Not over-powered, just balanced with the competitive ones, and keep them there as very realistic Meta options.

2) Increasingly Complicated Game mechanics: I know there are players that love the new character card abilities and synergies that have made some very tough, competitive lists, and that's fine. But to insure that new players or ones that want to be the best space fighter pilots aren't driven out of the game, something has to breach this impregnable wall of complexity. I have stated before on this Forum, with others (that are and will post on this thread) who are way smarter and better players than I that a squadron card needs to be added to each faction that allows ships of the same type to fly in a squad of fighters that have the ability to ignore or negate these synergies when the squad is played without such complexity. It will: A) grant squads of fighters that have almost passed into obscurity a real shot at competing on any given night, B) it will bring flying back to the forefront in necessities to bring to the mat, C) it will shake up the Meta as synergy lists will have to have other angles, D) it will increase sales of older ships to newer players that just grab at the new hotness, E) it will allow players that don't own or have all the new hotness a way to play on any given night and have a shot, F) it should bring a bit more wonder and fun while not eliminating the cool creative cards.

Jut my two cents. Thanks gents!

"Fly casual" -Solo

17 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Totally agree. And I would love to see Phoenix Squadron pilots, the Hammerhead corvette, and Blue Squadron X-Wings for the exact same reasons.

OTOH, Star Wars has been a part of my life since 1977. During the Dark Times, all I had to keep the dream alive was WEG, Decipher, and Bantam novels. (Never been much of a video game buff, but did play X-Wing and TIE Fighter.) So, I am equally excited to see things like the Mist Hunter and IG-2000 hit the table in 3-D. I would still like to see Chiss Clawcraft, the Slave II, and lots of other EU ships come out as well.

I would love the see Prequel ships hit the table.

In the long run, I think it would be smart for FFG to start enforcing the subfactions more. . .this tournament is the Galactic Civil War, this one is Clone Wars, this one is just after the fall of the Empire. It would encourage alternate list building, allow more ships to shine, as well as give a sense of story behind what you are seeing on the table.

They need a lot more ships before they can enforce subfactions. Rebels have the T70 and the falcon. Imps have the TIE/FO, TIE/SF and Upsilon, scum have...the quadjumper.

10 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

1) Ships old and new: We all love the Star Wars ships; that's essentially what is the magnet of the game, the ships and pilots that express our fandom be it the original trilogy, the recent films, the books, or the cartoons. Yes the heart of the Star Wars game is, by FFGs very tag line on the Forum page, the Core Game propaganda and the Movies that spawned all the other SW fair: "take control of powerful Rebel X-wings and nimble Imperial TIE fighters!" This must be brought back to the competitive fore, just like the Jedi are to bring balance to the force. Not over-powered, just balanced with the competitive ones, and keep them there as very realistic Meta options.

X-wings and TIE fighters are competitive. Poe Dameron and Omega Leader are seen all the time! Actually, the T-70's and TIE/fo's are a ton of fun, and really capture the feel of advanced versions of classic ships. And they're straight out of the Star Wars movie, The Force Awakens.

So what they told you was true...from a certain point of view.

I do feel the original TIE fighter and X-wing need to be brought back up to par, but I don't think it's to the point where the designers need to drop everything and get to work on it now. It'll come. I know all about waiting.

Another point of view: my son isn't quite old enough yet to start playing, but once he is, the ships that he knows and recognizes and loves will be the Ghost, the Shadowcaster, the A-Wing, and all the other ships that show up in the Rebels episodes we watch together. To him, those shows are what Star Wars really is, much more than X-Wings.

Every year that X-Wing (the game) keeps going, there will be more and more players for whom TFA and Rebels are the "real" Star Wars ships.

Looking forward to listening to the podcast.

11 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

They need a lot more ships before they can enforce subfactions. Rebels have the T70 and the falcon. Imps have the TIE/FO, TIE/SF and Upsilon, scum have...the quadjumper.

Back to the glory days of Wave 1!!! (And I did say in the long run. . .)

2 minutes ago, You Look Like A Nail said:

Another point of view: my son isn't quite old enough yet to start playing, but once he is, the ships that he knows and recognizes and loves will be the Ghost, the Shadowcaster, the A-Wing, and all the other ships that show up in the Rebels episodes we watch together. To him, those shows are what Star Wars really is, much more than X-Wings.

Every year that X-Wing (the game) keeps going, there will be more and more players for whom TFA and Rebels are the "real" Star Wars ships.

I watch all the episodes of Rebels and consider the Ghost, A-wings, and Shadow Caster core Star Wars ships!

Anyway - before we derail this thread into another MOAR FIXEZ! type thread, I'm going to hijack it for my own selfish purposes...

GenCon Question:

Any concerns of the snowball effect? A player getting experienced named pilots continues to get more powerful and could hit somebody struggling to keep ships alive quite hard, even if they are winning their matches.