Yes, and someone is repeating themselves.

On 2017-03-15 at 11:55 PM, Xrishadowchaser said:

It will be awesome if we get mantis and spider. I was just using their format for the other lcgs. I could be completely wrong. Either way we are getting l5r back!!!

Other factions will be introduced in deluxe expansions

1 hour ago, Jedi samurai said:

Other factions will be introduced in deluxe expansions

Just to be clear, you don't know this is true, you know it is possible as it has happened in the past.

21 minutes ago, BayushiCroy said:

Just to be clear, you don't know this is true, you know it is possible as it has happened in the past.

Something Something spider clan!

1 hour ago, BayushiCroy said:

Just to be clear, you don't know this is true, you know it is possible as it has happened in the past.

Boy, due diligence is difficult with the internet, is it not?

6 hours ago, BayushiCroy said:

Just to be clear, you don't know this is true, you know it is possible as it has happened in the past.

Do you really thing the game will be 7 factions and only 7 factions for as long as ffg owns it?

37 minutes ago, Jedi samurai said:

Do you really thing the game will be 7 factions and only 7 factions for as long as ffg owns it?

Not what I am saying.

He is saying there WILL BE more more factions with expansions.

I am saying there is no way he can possibly know that without insider info. I am assuming he doesn't have that, therefore he does not know, as a certainty, that there WILL BE more factions.

He can assume that based on patterns in the past, and what seems likely with the story, especially after we get more info on the lore and setting as to where they are starting it all.

But saying things like that is dangerous right now because it could make someone believe something to be true when there is NO WAY to know if it is.

I am taking issue that he is talking in certainties, when, until April 19th, the ONLY certainties we have are:

-There is a Gencon Pre-release.
- It is a card game
-2 cores to be "competitive" - notice how he DOES NOT SAY play set. It likely will be a play set, but we can't assume something to be true off of and interpretation.

at this point there a few more things we know as a certainty, but there aren't many. We do not know, as a fact, that there will be more factions introduced, despite how likely it may be.

1 hour ago, BayushiCroy said:

Not what I am saying.

He is saying there WILL BE more more factions with expansions.

I am saying there is no way he can possibly know that without insider info. I am assuming he doesn't have that, therefore he does not know, as a certainty, that there WILL BE more factions.

He can assume that based on patterns in the past, and what seems likely with the story, especially after we get more info on the lore and setting as to where they are starting it all.

But saying things like that is dangerous right now because it could make someone believe something to be true when there is NO WAY to know if it is.

I am taking issue that he is talking in certainties, when, until April 19th, the ONLY certainties we have are:

-There is a Gencon Pre-release.
- It is a card game
-2 cores to be "competitive" - notice how he DOES NOT SAY play set. It likely will be a play set, but we can't assume something to be true off of and interpretation.

at this point there a few more things we know as a certainty, but there aren't many. We do not know, as a fact, that there will be more factions introduced, despite how likely it may be.

Just like people saying there WILL be tokens in the game!

3 minutes ago, Sparks Duh said:

Just like people saying there WILL be tokens in the game!

Only as a certainty to you. =)

21 minutes ago, Sparks Duh said:

Just like people saying there WILL be tokens in the game!

All I'm saying is that, given FFG's track record, it makes no sense to think they would remove tokens from the game.

It is academic whether AEG did the right thing with the Spider. AEG is no longer in control.

The Spider players are a large chunk of the player base, and it'd be foolish to alienate that group without need and consideration. If FFG doesn't include them early, it's reasonable to assume some explanation would be forthcoming, even if it's literally something as simple as "the game takes place in the immediate aftermath of the first Gozoku," for example.

It could also be that they're taking the greater complaints for and against the Spider Clan seriously and trying to find a palatable middle ground for both sets of players, but didn't want to make that the focus of the early information.

After two years of ownership and 10 years of the AEG forums, I don't think FFG's confused as to how the player base feels about Spider.

We've got a month before they go into story details. Sit tight. We'll get our answers soon enough.

has FFG made an LCG that doesn't have tokens?

21 minutes ago, cielago said:

has FFG made an LCG that doesn't have tokens?

To be fair. I was impressed with how few types of tokens are in agot 2.0

Money and power. There are some others but they don't have a listed purpose and are proxies for whatever.

But money and power is it. That game doesn't really NEED tokens.

2 hours ago, SirEuain said:

It is academic whether AEG did the right thing with the Spider. AEG is no longer in control.

The Spider players are a large chunk of the player base, and it'd be foolish to alienate that group without need and consideration.

A player base that was insufficiently large enough to sustain the game as a CCG. As such, knowing FFG, the small portion of the prior player base who were Spider players are a even smaller amount of a group of players they're hoping to surpass -- and as such pretty much something they can ignore as a viable concern for their own plans for the game.

I'm sure they'd love to have all the old players on board, but a threat that you'll "alienate" all the old Spider players is like complaining that all the hardcore death polka fans will be boycotting Paul McCartney's next concert. Macca will not really be concerned, although he'll wish them well on the off chance the news actually reaches his ears.

They might be bringing the Spider back. They might not be. Pleasing the microcosm of returning Spider players won't be the reason they'll do it though.

2 hours ago, Gaffa said:

A player base that was insufficiently large enough to sustain the game as a CCG. As such, knowing FFG, the small portion of the prior player base who were Spider players are a even smaller amount of a group of players they're hoping to surpass -- and as such pretty much something they can ignore as a viable concern for their own plans for the game.

I'm sure they'd love to have all the old players on board, but a threat that you'll "alienate" all the old Spider players is like complaining that all the hardcore death polka fans will be boycotting Paul McCartney's next concert. Macca will not really be concerned, although he'll wish them well on the off chance the news actually reaches his ears.

They might be bringing the Spider back. They might not be. Pleasing the microcosm of returning Spider players won't be the reason they'll do it though.

In fairness, the post you quoted said "without need and consideration." I agree SirEuain that randomly alienating those existing fans would be foolish. If it happens, it will happen because FFG ran the numbers and said "this is the better way to go." And if it doesn't? The same reasoning will apply.

11 hours ago, BayushiCroy said:

Not what I am saying.

He is saying there WILL BE more more factions with expansions.

I am saying there is no way he can possibly know that without insider info. I am assuming he doesn't have that, therefore he does not know, as a certainty, that there WILL BE more factions.

He can assume that based on patterns in the past, and what seems likely with the story, especially after we get more info on the lore and setting as to where they are starting it all.

But saying things like that is dangerous right now because it could make someone believe something to be true when there is NO WAY to know if it is.

I am taking issue that he is talking in certainties, when, until April 19th, the ONLY certainties we have are:

-There is a Gencon Pre-release.
- It is a card game
-2 cores to be "competitive" - notice how he DOES NOT SAY play set. It likely will be a play set, but we can't assume something to be true off of and interpretation.

at this point there a few more things we know as a certainty, but there aren't many. We do not know, as a fact, that there will be more factions introduced, despite how likely it may be.

He was me, and I know what you're doing. You're playing that game of "someone said something that the vast majority of use believe, is most likely to happen, and its fair and intelligent to assume" but we haven't had it spelled out to us yet so I'm going to point out how its not known cause it will make me look smart. If the starter does in fact only include the 7 clans on that poster we saw (even if it includes all 9 great clans) we still see other factions introduced in future sets.

To be fair to FFG, though, there is basically nothing you can do storywise in L5R without making someone angry.

<= Still bitter about Kyuden Suzume being a Spider stronghold.

7 minutes ago, Jedi samurai said:

He was me, and I know what you're doing. You're playing that game of "someone said something that the vast majority of use believe, is most likely to happen, and its fair and intelligent to assume" but we haven't had it spelled out to us yet so I'm going to point out how its not known cause it will make me look smart. If the starter does in fact only include the 7 clans on that poster we saw (even if it includes all 9 great clans) we still see other factions introduced in future sets.

I don't think it's a game. I think it's being epistemologically responsible. There's a difference between what one believes and what one knows . And it's good to differentiate between the two, so as not to confuse others.

Adding factions later in the game is certainly a possibility, but it's by no means a certainty. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think AGoT 2nd edition has added any factions beyond what that version started with, has it? Or LotR with "spheres?"

And to add to that, please leave out the personal attacks, as they are unproductive and unhelpful.

Assume good faith at least at first - it will make this community a better place for anyone, but in particular for newbies. And we want those because we want a large playerbase, right?

1 hour ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

I don't think it's a game. I think it's being epistemologically responsible. There's a difference between what one believes and what one knows . And it's good to differentiate between the two, so as not to confuse others.

Adding factions later in the game is certainly a possibility, but it's by no means a certainty. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think AGoT 2nd edition has added any factions beyond what that version started with, has it? Or LotR with "spheres?"

Excellent points, but I'm not sure LotR spheres are necessarily the best comparison. Obviously, we have no idea how the clans will be portrayed yet, but I would expect them to be more like the faction keywords in LotR (e.g. Dunedain, Gondor, Hobbit, Noldor, etc.) than with spheres; and we have received new factions in LotR. If they included anything like spheres in L5R (and I don't necessarily think they would), I would think the Rings would be a better fit.

1 hour ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

Adding factions later in the game is certainly a possibility, but it's by no means a certainty. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think AGoT 2nd edition has added any factions beyond what that version started with, has it? Or LotR with "spheres?"

In all the LCGs I've played (AGoT 1st ed, Netrunner, Star Wars, Conquest, AGoT 2nd ed and Arkham Horror), only Conquest has added factions beyond those that were present in the Core Set. AGoT 1st ed and Star Wars fleshed out factions that were barely present in the Core Set (Greyjoy and Martell for AGoT, Smugglers & Spies and Scum & Villainy for Star Wars). AGoT 1st ed added a neutral House card and Netrunner added neutral runner identities. Also, the extra factions for Conquest were announced in the Core Set: they appear beside the wheel of alliance at the end of the LtP (Necrons inside the wheel, Tyranids outside).

So, my take on extra factions is that they're a possibility, but by no means a certainty. And we'll know when the game comes out.

1 hour ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

I don't think it's a game. I think it's being epistemologically responsible. There's a difference between what one believes and what one knows . And it's good to differentiate between the two, so as not to confuse others.

Adding factions later in the game is certainly a possibility, but it's by no means a certainty. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think AGoT 2nd edition has added any factions beyond what that version started with, has it? Or LotR with "spheres?"

LotR hasn't added spheres, but those aren't the factions. there isn't really an l5r parallel to them. they have actual faction keywords, and they've added a HOBBITLOAD of those.

5 hours ago, Jedi samurai said:

He was me, and I know what you're doing. You're playing that game of "someone said something that the vast majority of use believe, is most likely to happen, and its fair and intelligent to assume" but we haven't had it spelled out to us yet so I'm going to point out how its not known cause it will make me look smart. If the starter does in fact only include the 7 clans on that poster we saw (even if it includes all 9 great clans) we still see other factions introduced in future sets.

Sorry should have scrolled up to see it was you. I get lazy when on phone. Also I will enjoy you not speaking for me.

What I am doing, is making a distinction between things I believe (assume) will happen from things I know will happen (certainties). We know very little about the game, but in fairness I think people have made some very fair assumptions. The problem is when people speak in certainties.

As Sparks pointed out, people have done the same with the idea of tokens in the game. We don't know there will be tokens in the game. However people are assuming there will be. It might seem fair to equate "there will probably be tokens in the game" and "there will probably be additional factions included in expansions", but I claim that one is a fair assumption (that we still can't claim as a fact) and the other, despite how much I want it to be true, is less likely. Here's why:

I do not know of an FFG game that doesn't have tokens. In fairness, AGoT 2.0 uses a very small diversity of tokens, and probably could have been designed without them. But because they are still included in the design of the game, despite having less variety than in other games, that seems to be their insistence on including tokens. A quick recap on only the games I know of with tokens: Netrunner, Agot 1, Agot 2, Arkham Horror, Star Wars Destiny, Conquest, LoTR, CoC Cardgame. That is...*counts* 8. 8 Cardgames that uses tokens. I may have missed some but I believe that is all of FFG's card games.

The likelihood of l5r NOT having tokens, is in one sense, 1/8. We still can't say for sure we know there will be tokens, but it seems likely. I am not including their board games because I feel they are too dissimilar in design to be comparable.

Now, games that had additional factions added post release, from thats ame set, I think is only Conquest, right? I am less sure on this one. that would mean, in a sense, there is a 8/1 chance of having a faction added. Still possible, we don't know, but it is a fairer assumption that they wont. That being said I still think they will, but that is because of story

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE STORY!?

Yea, so here is where it gets weird. We know they are going to have story be important to the engagement of l5r, and have not said how, yet. Where they pick up the story, or do their own (WHO KNOWS!?) is the main factor as to whether the Mantis could even exist and/or they want to try to make Spider/Shadowland Horde a playable faction, which I have been told they don't like to make the bad guys a playable faction.

Now if the Spider AREN'T the bad guys, that depends entirely on the story, which again, we simply don't know.

Does that clarify my point?

18 minutes ago, BayushiCroy said:

Sorry should have scrolled up to see it was you. I get lazy when on phone. Also I will enjoy you not speaking for me.

What I am doing, is making a distinction between things I believe (assume) will happen from things I know will happen (certainties). We know very little about the game, but in fairness I think people have made some very fair assumptions. The problem is when people speak in certainties.

As Sparks pointed out, people have done the same with the idea of tokens in the game. We don't know there will be tokens in the game. However people are assuming there will be. It might seem fair to equate "there will probably be tokens in the game" and "there will probably be additional factions included in expansions", but I claim that one is a fair assumption (that we still can't claim as a fact) and the other, despite how much I want it to be true, is less likely. Here's why:

I do not know of an FFG game that doesn't have tokens. In fairness, AGoT 2.0 uses a very small diversity of tokens, and probably could have been designed without them. But because they are still included in the design of the game, despite having less variety than in other games, that seems to be their insistence on including tokens. A quick recap on only the games I know of with tokens: Netrunner, Agot 1, Agot 2, Arkham Horror, Star Wars Destiny, Conquest, LoTR, CoC Cardgame. That is...*counts* 8. 8 Cardgames that uses tokens. I may have missed some but I believe that is all of FFG's card games.

The likelihood of l5r NOT having tokens, is in one sense, 1/8. We still can't say for sure we know there will be tokens, but it seems likely. I am not including their board games because I feel they are too dissimilar in design to be comparable.

Now, games that had additional factions added post release, from thats ame set, I think is only Conquest, right? I am less sure on this one. that would mean, in a sense, there is a 8/1 chance of having a faction added. Still possible, we don't know, but it is a fairer assumption that they wont. That being said I still think they will, but that is because of story

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE STORY!?

Yea, so here is where it gets weird. We know they are going to have story be important to the engagement of l5r, and have not said how, yet. Where they pick up the story, or do their own (WHO KNOWS!?) is the main factor as to whether the Mantis could even exist and/or they want to try to make Spider/Shadowland Horde a playable faction, which I have been told they don't like to make the bad guys a playable faction.

Now if the Spider AREN'T the bad guys, that depends entirely on the story, which again, we simply don't know.

Does that clarify my point?

Just pointing out that Lord of the Rings LCG has added factions (pretty sure there weren't any Harad cards in the base set), and Arkham Horror doesn't really have anything akin to factions, so I'm not sure it's really fair to include that one.

...also, I'm not sure that really translates to 1/8 odds of L5R not having tokens, or to 8/1 (7/2) odds of new factions being added. That's not really how statistics works in such cases...

8 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Just pointing out that Lord of the Rings LCG has added factions (pretty sure there weren't any Harad cards in the base set), and Arkham Horror doesn't really have anything akin to factions, so I'm not sure it's really fair to include that one.

...also, I'm not sure that really translates to 1/8 odds of L5R not having tokens, or to 8/1 (7/2) odds of new factions being added. That's not really how statistics works in such cases...

Yea, Arkham is an odd case.

They don't translate perfectly, no, and I don't mean to imply that this is strict probability, only an acknowledgment of patterns.

Hold on

Wait, Arkham totally has factions. Guardian, Seeker, Mystic, Rogue, Survivor. I don't see how adding another color card is dissimilar from adding a faction.