2 hours ago, Kakita Shiro said:

I assume it would have to do with the fact that every expansion had to have enough of them to support Draft. There are only so many variations of +2F/+1C Sword you can create.

That's fair. I was asking because this problem isn't exclusive to followers or items though. Becasue of draft every set also needed some anti sendhome card, anti favour card, straighten tech etc. Which I'd imagine was equally as boring to design.

Was wondering what the distinct slant with followers was.

11 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

I would recommend checking out how the Game of Thrones game works.

It might be that there is a singular victory condition, but multiple ways to achieve it. I.e. whether you kill or do honor or dishonor, you collect points towards victory.

I played AGoT since Iron Throne edition. But in the end it's always the same, getting 15 power, it doesn't matter how you got it. But in L5R it's different, you have to take lots of things in account. And that was awesome for me.

17 hours ago, Barbacuo said:

I played AGoT since Iron Throne edition. But in the end it's always the same, getting 15 power, it doesn't matter how you got it. But in L5R it's different, you have to take lots of things in account. And that was awesome for me.

There were always serious issues with the win conditions in L5R though.

First, if you were even thinking of playing a dishonor deck, you'd best hope you didn't go against an honor runner or it was just generally a lost game for you. You would drag the game out longer, but all else being equal-- an honor runner could usually reliably pull at least twice as much honor a turn as a dishonor player could take from them. And they would just get faster and faster the more the game dragged on. Plus there was a whole fact that one faction was immune to it.

And Enlightenment was a mess. The fact that without fate card draw, which there never was much of (other than Ring of the Void and that required you to be able to play everything in your hand), you were likely not to see much more than 1/4th of your fate deck. As a result, the chances you would pull any given ring as well as the necessary strategy cards to get some of those into play without relying on your opponent cooperating, much less getting all 5 was well... all but impossible. They had to be cheated into play, basically ignoring the card text and using things that let you go fishing for the ring and/or put it into play without meeting the requirements for playing it.

And, yeah, there were a bunch of win conditions that came into play as events, but those were of varying degree of effectiveness as, naturally, the entire card pool wasn't balanced to allow these sorts of victory conditions.

So typically L5R had only two regularly feasible win conditions-- honor and military. And a lot of people resented honor because it was all about ignoring and countering any actual interaction with the opponent.

And then there was the issue of factions either being fully streamlined for a win condition or to be a hybrid... and if they were a hybrid, then that could mean that they did neither well and would always lose to a properly streamlined clan.

I just don't see anything being lost if, for instance, there was a scoring system like "Gain honor, gain a victory point. Cause an honor loss, get a victory point. But a Ring into play, get 8 victory points. Smash a province, get 10 victory points. First person to 50 victory points wins." And you might have other events that reward you victory points for accomplishing other goals.

It more or less solves all of the issues the multiple victory conditions had.

And that's basically what the power tokens in aGoT are.

1 hour ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

There were always serious issues with the win conditions in L5R though.

First, if you were even thinking of playing a dishonor deck, you'd best hope you didn't go against an honor runner or it was just generally a lost game for you. You would drag the game out longer, but all else being equal-- an honor runner could usually reliably pull at least twice as much honor a turn as a dishonor player could take from them. And they would just get faster and faster the more the game dragged on. Plus there was a whole fact that one faction was immune to it.

Both "bugs" corrected in Ivory/Twenty Festivals. Tutorable, non unique Political Standoff (that was also going into Onyx) and lack of "immune to dishonor" Strongholds.

About enlightenment i really don't know what are you talking about. There were two types of such decks - true clock combo engines to put them into play in right order or Enlightenment/Military switches because these repeatable Ring actions were good on their own. In Ivory/20F Dragon was designed to be this Clan that could achieve this win as one of major win conditions and trust me - that was true, because Dragon enlightenment were just really good.

I don't how other people but i'm tired of this AGoT mumbling. I think you just should go here to continue your crusade about how your agotable game should look.

I ran Kaukatsu bomb dishonor deck in diamond. You had to win in you first turns but was hell of a fun deck. I know there are problems when you focus on a win condition while the opponent runs the opposite condition, and I already said that the game had unpolished mechanics, but at least I had the option to win in this or that way. It is plenty of single, single/decking win condition games out there. What hooked me in L5R was precisely its diversity.

On 3/11/2017 at 9:31 AM, TheHobgoblyn said:

I just don't see anything being lost if, for instance, there was a scoring system like "Gain honor, gain a victory point. Cause an honor loss, get a victory point. But a Ring into play, get 8 victory points. Smash a province, get 10 victory points. First person to 50 victory points wins." And you might have other events that reward you victory points for accomplishing other goals.

It more or less solves all of the issues the multiple victory conditions had.

And that's basically what the power tokens in aGoT are.

I would be willing to give this a shot: set a finish line but not a path, so to say. They can be called Glory or something. I dunno, seems worth a shot to me.

On 3/11/2017 at 10:17 AM, kempy said:

There were two types of such decks - true clock combo engines to put them into play in right order or Enlightenment/Military switches because these repeatable Ring actions were good on their own. In Ivory/20F Dragon was designed to be this Clan that could achieve this win as one of major win conditions and trust me - that was true, because Dragon enlightenment were just really good.

My last enlightenment deck, before you know the game went to the crapper (around early Emperor?), was Dragon deck that dropped the 5 rings through Dueling/Military. It was the first time I ever felt that Dragon was playing to it's strengths.

I remember when ratlings won by enlightenment with that stronghold that let them play cards from the discard pile.

12 hours ago, Barbacuo said:

I remember when ratlings won by enlightenment with that stronghold that let them play cards from the discard pile.

Yep, but rather because before errata this card allowed to draw your whole deck during battle (Formations were Repeatable actions if you still met its condition):

I think it could be 7 clans total - with no more coming down the pipe.

GOT2.0 has 8 factions and all 8 were in the core from the get-go, to give each faction equal 'growth'.

30 minutes ago, jonboyjon1990 said:

I think it could be 7 clans total - with no more coming down the pipe.

GOT2.0 has 8 factions and all 8 were in the core from the get-go, to give each faction equal 'growth'.

This "equal growth" is disturbed by one-clan deluxes i have to add. I wonder if they're going to follow same way with L5R (and mid-cycle deluxes) or just add some other factions in Conquest style.

4 hours ago, jonboyjon1990 said:

I think it could be 7 clans total - with no more coming down the pipe.

GOT2.0 has 8 factions and all 8 were in the core from the get-go, to give each faction equal 'growth'.

theres just no way mantis doesn't get back in. spider was enormously popular, but depending on how they handle the story, that will determine what form it takes and ultimately how its represented in the cards. but mantis was equally huge among the fanbase, at the top of the popularity stack, and filled a unique design and story space. no way it doesn't come back eventually.

I can think of a way, reboot or time skip. The Minor Clan Alliance becomes a stronger presence, and the Mantis don't run around painting the other MCs Yoritomo green.

28 minutes ago, BitRunr said:

I can think of a way, reboot or time skip. The Minor Clan Alliance becomes a stronger presence, and the Mantis don't run around painting the other MCs Yoritomo green.

thats splitting heirs, as i think most mantis fans would be pretty content with a minor clans alliance that had most of their families in it. my point is that the design, story, and fan niche that mantis filled is not gonna be left empty. i personally think spider won't be left empty either, but its a tricker one from a design and story standpoint.

Just now, cielago said:

thats splitting heirs, as i think most mantis fans would be pretty content with a minor clans alliance that had most of their families in it. my point is that the design, story, and fan niche that mantis filled is not gonna be left empty. i personally think spider won't be left empty either, but its a tricker one from a design and story standpoint.

I think I'd differ from you on that: there are people who would play Minor Clan Alliance who wouldn't want to play Mantis. I'm mostly thinking of the Fox, but I think there may be others as well.

27 minutes ago, cielago said:

theres just no way mantis doesn't get back in. spider was enormously popular, but depending on how they handle the story, that will determine what form it takes and ultimately how its represented in the cards. but mantis was equally huge among the fanbase, at the top of the popularity stack, and filled a unique design and story space. no way it doesn't come back eventually.

I haven't seen much evidence to the idea that Spider-- a hell-worshiping blood magic using group of openly murderous demonic psychopaths that were for the dumbest possible reasons, thanks to extortion, just accepted as being part of the empire without question or challenge as they plotted to destroy it, kill all people and punch holes to hell everywhere to allow demonic hosts to roam the land and everyone knew it but no one was willing or capable to lift a finger to stop them-- ever. Because they are entirely based around the character the writer's self-insert Mary Sue character...

The "Spider Clan" was not particular popular. You might have still had people running the faction's strongholds, but that was because Shadowlands was popular and got turned into Spider Clan. Even the Spider Clan players hated the Spider Clan-- evidenced by the fact that they wanted to erase every aspect of the clan that made it unique or different... or they had to deal with their faction being slowly neutered in order to appease the slight majority of idiots who naturally got on board with the "bad ass" character who won every scenario and because ever more ludicrously overblown because that's what the writer set him up to do.

To say that anyone even liked "the Spider Clan", you would first have to get people to remotely agree on what "the Spider Clan" was even, is even supposed to be.

It is a lot like saying "The Scorpion Clan was popular!" if half the people running the stronghold were constantly trying to get AEG to have them give up all their ninjas, act honestly and kindly, stop wearing masks, stop running geisha houses, move out of the desert to a lush jungle and get some nice tans.

It wasn't the "Spider Clan" that was popular-- it was having a faction that let you run crazy monsters of all sizes and shapes and evil wizards, shadow ninja and evil/undead unholy warriors instead of the pretty bog-standard samurai most other factions restrict one to running. Naturally if you give all the flash and bang and variety to one group, it will attract people. That doesn't mean any part of what made them "Spider Clan" rather than "Shadowlands" was popular.

I mean, when it really boils down to it... They Spider Clan just wanted to be a bunch of a___holes and have everyone just sit around as the objects of their power fantasies.

Just imagine if any other faction in the game had their Clan Champion raised to being the singular champion of an entire realm and seized the throne driving all other factions entirely from the empire.

14 minutes ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

I haven't seen much evidence to the idea that Spider-- a hell-worshiping blood magic using group of openly murderous demonic psychopaths that were for the dumbest possible reasons, thanks to extortion, just accepted as being part of the empire without question or challenge as they plotted to destroy it, kill all people and punch holes to hell everywhere to allow demonic hosts to roam the land and everyone knew it but no one was willing or capable to lift a finger to stop them-- ever. Because they are entirely based around the character the writer's self-insert Mary Sue character...

The "Spider Clan" was not particular popular. You might have still had people running the faction's strongholds, but that was because Shadowlands was popular and got turned into Spider Clan. Even the Spider Clan players hated the Spider Clan-- evidenced by the fact that they wanted to erase every aspect of the clan that made it unique or different... or they had to deal with their faction being slowly neutered in order to appease the slight majority of idiots who naturally got on board with the "bad ass" character who won every scenario and because ever more ludicrously overblown because that's what the writer set him up to do.

To say that anyone even liked "the Spider Clan", you would first have to get people to remotely agree on what "the Spider Clan" was even, is even supposed to be.

It is a lot like saying "The Scorpion Clan was popular!" if half the people running the stronghold were constantly trying to get AEG to have them give up all their ninjas, act honestly and kindly, stop wearing masks, stop running geisha houses, move out of the desert to a lush jungle and get some nice tans.

It wasn't the "Spider Clan" that was popular-- it was having a faction that let you run crazy monsters of all sizes and shapes and evil wizards, shadow ninja and evil/undead unholy warriors instead of the pretty bog-standard samurai most other factions restrict one to running. Naturally if you give all the flash and bang and variety to one group, it will attract people. That doesn't mean any part of what made them "Spider Clan" rather than "Shadowlands" was popular.

I mean, when it really boils down to it... They Spider Clan just wanted to be a bunch of a___holes and have everyone just sit around as the objects of their power fantasies.

Just imagine if any other faction in the game had their Clan Champion raised to being the singular champion of an entire realm and seized the throne driving all other factions entirely from the empire.

everything here is wrong. the spider clan consistently brought in large numbers to tournaments, more than other clans that consistently outperformed them, and our fan community REMAINS one of if not THE strongest in the game. you're wrong on EVERY point here. your mary sue garbage is just that, bitter garbage that i'm sick of hearing. Dags was introduced by a single writer, but expanded on by dozens of writers in meaningful, impactful ways. you need to get over the fact that a writer you didn't like introduced him.

this post is garbage, and i'm done responding to you when it comes to spider, because you're just needlessly bitter, ignorant, and biased.

Who needs evidence when they are just going to loudly state their opinion as fact?

I loved the Spider Clan, it has been my clan since I started playing 5 years ago. Yes, that means I was not playing before the Spider Clan existed, but that makes my opinion no less valid. I did not love them because they could field big hell monsters or because I thought they were A-holes or because I was getting off on some power fantasy. I played Spider because I identify more with the anti-hero's and outsiders, and loved the fact that the villain of a game had been turned into one of the heroes of the setting. I can't think of any other game that has happened in and wanted to be part of that journey. Obviously that is not how it turned out, but I've still enjoyed every minute of playing them, they're still my clan. Other players will love the Spider Clan for other reasons. Others will not like it, preferring the faction when it was Shadowlands. Others still will like both sides of the Spider, and others won't like either.

The only valid point you just made is that no-one could agree on what the Spider Clan was.

Dude, stop.

You've had several people, in this thread alone, saying they liked playing Spider. It's, for many reasons, some of which you mention, an obvious choice for many people to like. That doesn't require people to agree on a singular definition of the Spider Clan, because like most clans and really, any identity that people get attached to, you only have to agree on very rough outlines. Look at the differences within a religion of your choice - how different are Catholics in Italy from Catholics in the US from Catholics in Brazil etc. That doesn't stop them from being part of one joint group.

Online activity of the fanbase may be a bad indicator of how large the fanbase was, but it certainly is an indicator. Numbers at Koteis support that. Stop lying about that, it's pointless.

See also the other responses.

Wait... there's still people who doesn't have him on their ignore list? I'm surprised!

Let me put this in perspective, folks:

I play Phoenix. But for a great deal of my time in L5R, Shinden Fu Leng has been my gold standard for Clan Forums That Don't Suck.

Yes, it began as a Shadowlands Forum.

But even when AEG was making move after move to split than fanbase into bitter, warring factions, even when the Spider Clan had decks that were purest garbage, SFL remained a forum I enjoyed hanging around.

Because of fans of the Spider Clan.

I loathe Daigotsu. I regard him as a narrative cope of lead that the Spider Clan is doomed to drag around forever. But to say that "they don't really like the Spider Clan, they're all just Shadowlands Horde fans" displays willful ignorance on a truly impressive order of magnitude.

40 minutes ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

Because they are entirely based around the character the writer's self-insert Mary Sue character...

And whose self-insert Mary Sue was he between the dozen of writers that added to him?

It's strange, usually, writers use characters they created themselves when they want self-insert. After all, if the character is created by somebody else, how can it be a self-insert?

Do you even know who was the lead writer that created Daigotsu? Hint : it wasn't Shawn Carman.

even though that picture only shows 7 clan mons, I'm not entirely sold that there is not a shadowlands faction in the core set. It may be that they didn't want to show it yet, or that it was omitted because there is no mon during the time period. 7 is an odd number to start with.

On top of that every argument about not including the Spider can also be applied to the Mantis. So hopefully they won't keep them both removed in the future.

35 minutes ago, Crawd said:

Wait... there's still people who doesn't have him on their ignore list? I'm surprised!

I keep hoping there is something useful in the posts. Maybe I just should.

I mean, they are so long, everytime. There has to be something useful in there right?

1 hour ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

idiots … a___holes

I have bad news for you, my man: It's not them.

On 09/03/2017 at 8:49 PM, Tetsuro said:

In the end I think we might have even discussed cutting it down to 3; Crab + Lion + Naga, Crane + Phoenix + Unicorn, and Spider + Scorpion + Dragon .

Wait, wait, wait... Hold on for a second.

What are you saying here is that, under this idea you where discussing, if someone was a Scorpion or Dragon Clan player, that person would have two options in that block: either suck the Spider Clan's " yari " or not play at all?

Is that serious?