16 minutes ago, BayushiCroy said:

He wants to be right so he is inventing his own arguments to beat down.

He is only loosely basing his statements on things they have actually been said to him.

For my own benefit, then, to be sure I am following the argument... You are suggesting that the rings are not the same as they were in the old game, but rather something new, closer to AGoT's banner alignments, right? Presumably not exactly identical, but certainly not the massive boosts they were in original L5R, if you could get them into play.

If that's the case, it could work, but I'd rather see that role fulfilled by Sensei's or the equivalent - putting rings on personalities, and having Sensei's (perhaps) allow you to include them in your deck, seems like a great idea. It's just that, personally, I liked the rings being quite powerful and would hope to see them remain so. Of course, that's in FFG's hand, and it's also possible I misunderstood your idea.

While I like the idea, I think I'd prefer if the rings were a thing that you could achieve still.

Perhaps even tokens to be gained

26 minutes ago, agarrett said:

For my own benefit, then, to be sure I am following the argument... You are suggesting that the rings are not the same as they were in the old game, but rather something new, closer to AGoT's banner alignments, right? Presumably not exactly identical, but certainly not the massive boosts they were in original L5R, if you could get them into play.

If that's the case, it could work, but I'd rather see that role fulfilled by Sensei's or the equivalent - putting rings on personalities, and having Sensei's (perhaps) allow you to include them in your deck, seems like a great idea. It's just that, personally, I liked the rings being quite powerful and would hope to see them remain so. Of course, that's in FFG's hand, and it's also possible I misunderstood your idea.

That's because I initially didn't even bring out an idea. No worries!

I think k a lot of people get hung up on thinking the way the game used to be and are unwilling or even unaware on how to dispose of sacred cows.

I had never even considered the idea of using the rings as something other for enlightment victories or cool, powerful effects. So when someone mentioned using them in a different way, my first thought was as a modification to the faction.

It probably wouldn't work, because I assume enlightment would be a thing and I hope it's tied to the rings. But just the idea of, say, a void scorpion deck, would be cool. I have no idea what that would even look like but the idea intrigued me.

It also makes me think of the Chinese zodiac, and how most people know their animal, but most don't know they it can be further define with an element. For example, if I'm remember right, I'm an earth snake.

Another idea could be something like the knew card game Codex. It attempts to play like an rts. When you develop your technology you have to commit to a tech tree which limits what you can put in your deck. Imagine if the ring was like a banner which unlocked deck building options.

My point was, it was something I had literally never thought of before and it was a cool first thought. I took issue with getting words put into my mouth and then told I'm wrong for arguments I didn't even make.

Especially when I am far more interested in the brainstorming and ideas we can come up with. We are sooo info starved for info that we have to remember that ffg can change ANYTHING.

They are more generous than we would have been. We'd basically planned after Onyx to cut it back to 4 factions, total.

13 minutes ago, Tetsuro said:

They are more generous than we would have been. We'd basically planned after Onyx to cut it back to 4 factions, total.

"imperial" (shadowlands/spider), rokugan-in-exile, subservient rokugan, naga?

8 minutes ago, cielago said:

"imperial" (shadowlands/spider), rokugan-in-exile, subservient rokugan, naga?

Empire, Resistance Groups 1-3.

Cutting to four factions might have been far too much to cut. I could only imagine the rage of some. Essentially the Mantis Onyx issue grown to whoever was "cut", even if it was going to be temporary like the Mantis. Those poor Mantis.

6 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

Cutting to four factions might have been far too much to cut. I could only imagine the rage of some. Essentially the Mantis Onyx issue grown to whoever was "cut", even if it was going to be temporary like the Mantis. Those poor Mantis.

i think you're looking at it the wrong way. when it was just mantis, it was "hey, screw you mantis!", but if they completely overhual how clans work, and boil it down to 3 kinds of opposition factions, and one "evil imperial" faction, then it isn't about "your clan is being cut". i suspect that people would have reacted with a lot less personal affront to that than the mantis roflstomp

22 minutes ago, cielago said:

i think you're looking at it the wrong way. when it was just mantis, it was "hey, screw you mantis!", but if they completely overhual how clans work, and boil it down to 3 kinds of opposition factions, and one "evil imperial" faction, then it isn't about "your clan is being cut". i suspect that people would have reacted with a lot less personal affront to that than the mantis roflstomp

I'm just referring to how Mantis was going to be portrayed in Onyx via The Storm's Path . Do you have an actual article or something direct about the other clans and this switch to oppositions for Onyx? Something verifiable?

22 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

I'm just referring to how Mantis was going to be portrayed in Onyx via The Storm's Path . Do you have an actual article or something direct about the other clans and this switch to oppositions for Onyx? Something verifiable?

i'm basing it off the onyx fiction snippets we got, that you can find on kaze no shiro. there was the empire in exile in the colonies, the clans that remained, then the naga. given 4 factions (minus the Evil Empire) that seemed a reasonable breakdown, but its speculation. my point was mostly tho just that i doubt if they were cutting down to 3 groups it would be 3 clans. it seems non-crazy to suggest that they'd be aggregate groups, in that case, and in that situation, i think people would feel somewhat less persecuted than the mantis did.

Based upon personal correspondence with members of the Story Team, I can tell you that even some Clans that voted to go full-bore anti-Kanpeki were going to be portrayed having collaborationist elements... I think civil wars or leadership struggles within Clans were very much in the offing, although that latter part is pure speculation.

1 hour ago, cielago said:

i'm basing it off the onyx fiction snippets we got, that you can find on kaze no shiro. there was the empire in exile in the colonies, the clans that remained, then the naga. given 4 factions (minus the Evil Empire) that seemed a reasonable breakdown, but its speculation. my point was mostly tho just that i doubt if they were cutting down to 3 groups it would be 3 clans. it seems non-crazy to suggest that they'd be aggregate groups, in that case, and in that situation, i think people would feel somewhat less persecuted than the mantis did.

I need something a bit more than the Onyx fiction. What I need is something more along the lines of the Mantis Onyx outlook, not some "speculation". Heck, the outlook even contradicts the whole 4 faction direction.

Did you not read the designers posts just above Cielago?

18 hours ago, Builder2 said:

Should the Rings be cards that each player sets aside, and are put into play when a player fulfills their condition(s)?

A lot of "tutoring", shuffling & cutting of decks during gameplay is bad for a card game.

It slows down gameplay and is not interactive.

Lets look at the Ring of Air for instance. I cast three spells that may or may not be interactive, then I play a tutor, go get the Ring of Air out of my deck, shuffle, get my opponent to cut my deck. So, 5 minutes have gone by and the only interaction my opponent has had is cutting my deck.

Rinsing & repeating this 4 or 5 times doesn't make for a fun, interactive game.

I'm not sure of the solution, but certainly something should happen.

That faction reduction makes me think that AEG was maybe trying to move L5R to a ECG release style like Doomtown.

10 hours ago, Kubernes said:

I need something a bit more than the Onyx fiction. What I need is something more along the lines of the Mantis Onyx outlook, not some "speculation". Heck, the outlook even contradicts the whole 4 faction direction.

16 hours ago, Tetsuro said:

They are more generous than we would have been. We'd basically planned after Onyx to cut it back to 4 factions, total.

sorry, i misunderstood. i thought you were asking where i was getting my ideas for what the four factions would be. not that thered be four. the four thing is from the above comment by Tetsuro.

20 hours ago, Silverfox13 said:

I have NEVER seen one ring in any versions of the game stop every deck, having played 'The Remote Monastery of the Dragon Frequently' and losing about the same as any other deck, I'm not sure your logic is sound. Why are you assuming that rings in any incarnation, card or mechanic, would be so unbalancing?

The difference is this...

The rings have always been something you have had to get into your fate hand (and how much of your fate deck to you ever really get to look at?), then you would have to play. And, in most versions of a ring, the more a ring would benefit you once you got it into play, the harder it was to get that ring into play in the first place.

For instance, one version of ring of fire required opponents to play focus values against you face up. That is great for a duelist deck!
Problem... how do you get it into play? Well, you need to win a duel against a personality that had higher chi. Unfortunately, if you are playing a standard duelist deck, all your personalities have high chi so you might not even have a target.... and you are probably the one doing all the challenging, so if they have the first option to focus or strike, its not so easy to fulfill this requirement. You have to do something tricky.

Now, on the other hand, if you just get to choose to start the game with the card already out on the table? Suddenly, none of that matters. You no longer have to fulfill the requirement. And if your other options are a Province Strength Boost, Personality Movement, Redirect Spells or Draw card if you empty your hand... and your deck effectively allows you to clean their board of personalities via dueling during each of your limited phases... why are you going to even choose any of the others besides the one that lets you know at all times if you are winning the duel and it is safe to strike?

On the other hand, if you were literally any other faction that doesn't duel particularly well (so anyone but Crane, Dragon or maybe Phoenix), you would be an absolute fool to bother choosing that ring.

Moreover, once you have the ability to just choose this as a special ability, then Crane Courtiers and Crane Military both seem pretty dead options-- you don't really have support for such things among the 5 rings. So all personalities printed for those sorts of decks are now effectively worthless as they cannot be put into the single competitive Crane deck.

THAT is why it wouldn't increase diversity.

They are more generous than we would have been. We'd basically planned after Onyx to cut it back to 4 factions, total.

And yet you were drudging up the naga of all things?....

At first brush, 4 factions doesn't seem particularly appealing. But... okay... it would be 4 alliances, I guess. And then each alliance would have 2 strongholds. You'd effectively still have all your clans, they would just each have an allied clan that they could bring in for cheap. At least I hope that is what you would be going for.

1 hour ago, Barbacuo said:

That faction reduction makes me think that AEG was maybe trying to move L5R to a ECG release style like Doomtown.

Huh?

they've mentioned in the past that they actually were, but i'm not sure i connect those dots either.

Doomtown started with 4 factions, and got an additional 2. Also, cards were divided into factions pretty much as they were in L5R: outfits and dudes (strongholds and personalities) were aligned, other cards were unaligned.

1 minute ago, Khudzlin said:

Doomtown started with 4 factions, and got an additional 2. Also, cards were divided into factions pretty much as they were in L5R: outfits and dudes (strongholds and personalities) were aligned, other cards were unaligned.

And that's the way i liked - no radical "color selection" or "controlled splashing" like in FFG LCG's.

2 minutes ago, kempy said:

And that's the way i liked - no radical "color selection" or "controlled splashing" like in FFG LCG's.

I hope you can still enjoy the game, then.

41 minutes ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

The difference is this...

The rings have always been something you have had to get into your fate hand (and how much of your fate deck to you ever really get to look at?), then you would have to play. And, in most versions of a ring, the more a ring would benefit you once you got it into play, the harder it was to get that ring into play in the first place.

For instance, one version of ring of fire required opponents to play focus values against you face up. That is great for a duelist deck!
Problem... how do you get it into play? Well, you need to win a duel against a personality that had higher chi. Unfortunately, if you are playing a standard duelist deck, all your personalities have high chi so you might not even have a target.... and you are probably the one doing all the challenging, so if they have the first option to focus or strike, its not so easy to fulfill this requirement. You have to do something tricky.

Now, on the other hand, if you just get to choose to start the game with the card already out on the table? Suddenly, none of that matters. You no longer have to fulfill the requirement. And if your other options are a Province Strength Boost, Personality Movement, Redirect Spells or Draw card if you empty your hand... and your deck effectively allows you to clean their board of personalities via dueling during each of your limited phases... why are you going to even choose any of the others besides the one that lets you know at all times if you are winning the duel and it is safe to strike?

On the other hand, if you were literally any other faction that doesn't duel particularly well (so anyone but Crane, Dragon or maybe Phoenix), you would be an absolute fool to bother choosing that ring.

Moreover, once you have the ability to just choose this as a special ability, then Crane Courtiers and Crane Military both seem pretty dead options-- you don't really have support for such things among the 5 rings. So all personalities printed for those sorts of decks are now effectively worthless as they cannot be put into the single competitive Crane deck.

THAT is why it wouldn't increase diversity.

I cannot dispute that players will always gravitate towards combinations of cards that gives them the highest probability of winning. I also cannot effectively theory craft on a topic that I have yet to see.

The thing is, it doesn't matter what type of card it is, Ring, Personality, Sensei... deck construction will almost always incorporate the strongest meta for the environment and the faction the player chooses. I see little reason to single out one subset of cards over any other. It falls on the designer to make every choice appealing and playable in some scope.

On that note, I am hoping that the rings will be balanced, and have applications in all clans, either at the release of core and/or in future expansions.

I personally would be very sad if they didn't not offer a Five Ring win condition, and hope that if it is, it will be just as viable a win condition as the others, something that fell short in many of the previous editions of AEGs L5R.

2 hours ago, Barbacuo said:

That faction reduction makes me think that AEG was maybe trying to move L5R to a ECG release style like Doomtown.

To me it appears like they are going towards a faction system like Game of Thrones. 7 clans is an odd number to start with, Imperial had 6 and did not include the Scorpion. It seems to me that this is timeline based with the exclusion of the Mantis, likely the most prominent faction added during the Story arc, outside of the Scorpion.

3 hours ago, Barbacuo said:

That faction reduction makes me think that AEG was maybe trying to move L5R to a ECG release style like Doomtown.

They were. They asked FFG for some advice on the model, and that led to the sale.