Not sure how long you have played but there were some great and tournament powerful archetypes built around Phoenix going to the dark side. Perhaps not so much Shiba but Isawa for sure.

It is in the nature of what Shugenja do to periodically suffer the repercussions of the taint, sort of like Cthulhu investigators and madness.

Just now, Tokhuah said:

Not sure how long you have played but there were some great and tournament powerful archetypes built around Phoenix going to the dark side. Perhaps not so much Shiba but Isawa for sure.

It is in the nature of what Shugenja do to periodically suffer the repercussions of the taint, sort of like Cthulhu investigators and madness.

All right folks, those of you who know me from other sources can tune out now:

Maho is boring. Moreover, from the perspective of the Phoenix Clan, maho, which can be used by ANYONE, not just a shugenja, is a really stupid thing to propagate, since it cuts into their only meaningful edge.It also robs the Phoenix of a chance to be villains in their own right, placing their natural hubris and best intentions leading to tragedy on a back-burner to"evil magic made us evil and now we're doing evil things." Yawn.

Kinuye was boring. Tsuke wasn't boring, but he was also a clear cautionary tale, just like Kisada was supposed to be. The Phoenix should have no monopoly on slinging maho- quite the opposite actually. Furthermore, why not follow in the footsteps of the real badass Tsukai of Rokugan- Kuni Yori. Yogo Junzo. Asahina Yajinden. The most iconic Phoenix maho-users weren;t defined by success in that field- Tadaka used it, realized his error, and turned away from it. Tsuke was consumed by it. Kinuye... bored me to tears.

I freely embrace Phoenix villainy. I just think they can do it without the Shadowlands.

We disagree on this point so I will ponder the future I want at the Sacred Temple of the Phoenix...

38 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

All right folks, those of you who know me from other sources can tune out now:

Maho is boring. Moreover, from the perspective of the Phoenix Clan, maho, which can be used by ANYONE, not just a shugenja, is a really stupid thing to propagate, since it cuts into their only meaningful edge. It also robs the Phoenix of a chance to be villains in their own right, placing their natural hubris and best intentions leading to tragedy on a back-burner to"evil magic made us evil and now we're doing evil things." Yawn.

Kinuye was boring. Tsuke wasn't boring, but he was also a clear cautionary tale, just like Kisada was supposed to be. The Phoenix should have no monopoly on slinging maho- quite the opposite actually. Furthermore, why not follow in the footsteps of the real badass Tsukai of Rokugan- Kuni Yori. Yogo Junzo. Asahina Yajinden. The most iconic Phoenix maho-users weren;t defined by success in that field- Tadaka used it, realized his error, and turned away from it. Tsuke was consumed by it. Kinuye... bored me to tears.

I freely embrace Phoenix villainy. I just think they can do it without the Shadowlands.

i don't agree that maho is boring, but i agree with everything else you're saying w/r/t villains and the phoenix. the bit i emphasized in particular is spot freakin' on too. maho isn't the way to make interesting fire chickens gone bad. despite the fact that you guys invented the stuff, so its all your fault that it exists in the first place. you're a clan full of the most powerful magic users in rokugan, bearing the name of a man SO ARROGANT that he got a kami to serve him. the phoenix are great. they don't need taint to be fun.

which is not, as an aside, to say that i haven't played the crud out of maho decks, cause i love me bloodspeakers. but you're right on why its bad writing, and i'm with you in hoping that they don't go that route again.

tangentially, it would be cool to see a corruption mechanic in the lcg, if shadowlands isn't a full faction out the gate. we'll see.

I started with EE so I have a question for some old, old players. What color was Dragon in the very beginning? I ask because I am under the impression that Mantis was not a Playa Le faction when the game launched.

If that's true, then what color was Dragon in the beginning? We're they always yellow green? Because this dragon mon is straight green, and that makes me wonder how likely mantis will be, even in the future.

Dragon was always yellow and green. You'll also note that Phoenix's mon barely has orange in it, so it's not necessarily indicative of a change that Dragon's predominately green here.

I disagree, I think phoenix looks orange. At least I think I do. I really think the picture is at a bad angle. I had to look up the old crane mon as a reference because I actually couldn't figure out the new mon. =/

Let me also state, for the record, that I regard the Phoenix as catastrophically overdue for some actual heroism... when was the last time they got to be even nominally the good guys in a way that didn't involve getting their faces pushed in? Even Isawa Mizuhiko's heroic tale was basically a clear tragedy from the word go. Let 'em be the good guys, and let them thump some heads before they roll back down the hubris-hole...

There was a comment- I want to say it was Spooky- that the Phoenix hadn't been given enough credit by the fanbase,especially with the messy NewMotoCurse. My response to that was that since the story team had routinely portrayed them as either wrong or irrelevant for years, their credibility was at an extreme low ebb. They need to be right for a bit before they once again go "we can handle this!"and have it blow up in their face.

My thoughts on the lines of "Rebooting it back to the RPG"...

The 1st Edition RPG was set during the time leading up to the Scorpion Clan Coup. In many ways, this was where the game began and where it had its most solid ground. Every Great Clan was clearly defined. Every Minor Clan was clearly defined. The Mantis Clan had its most compelling narrative (alliance of Minor Clans rallying around the banner of becoming a Great Clan on their own).

The Crane Clan were the heart of the Empire's culture, the beautiful Left Hand who were the lords of the Court. And they hated the Scorpion, Crab and Lion.

The Crab Clan were the fierce defenders of the Wall, under siege by the terrible darkness in the south and ruled by a relentless and masterful general. And they hated the Crane, and the Scorpion.

The Lion Clan were the righteous Right Hand of the Emperor, serving in the Imperial Legions when they were not making war on their neighbors. Oh, and they hated the Crane and the Scorpion.

The Scorpion Clan were the vicious Underhand of the Emperor, serving the Empire as the villains who operated through the shadows and blackmail. And EVERYONE hated the Scorpion Clan, except the Dragon.

The Dragon Clan were the mysterious ascetics who challenged the accepted way of doing things, and spoke in riddles to seek enlightenment.

The Phoenix Clan were the unsurpassed masters of magic, whose hubris knew no bounds.

In all seriousness, just push the Unicorn Clan into being more gaijin like they were in the later days of the game? And you have the iconic Great Clans and rivalries. And that is what will sell this game.

I say this as a former Naga player who has gone full blown Spider. I will always be a Spider Clan player, just as I will always be a Naga player. It does not matter what deck I put on the table. My wins will be for the Spider Clan... and maybe for Yogo Junzo's Army, if that comes back.

So, yeah. Bring on the reboot. Tell us the story of the Clan War again, starting with the Scorpion Clan Coup. And give us a story worth fighting about.

1 hour ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Let me also state, for the record, that I regard the Phoenix as catastrophically overdue for some actual heroism... when was the last time they got to be even nominally the good guys in a way that didn't involve getting their faces pushed in?

IIRC they made themselves useful in the Destroyer War, didn't they?

13 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

IIRC they made themselves useful in the Destroyer War, didn't they?

They were almost totally absent from those stories, actually. One ritual to help tackle the God-Beast, but credit for that went to a friggin' goblin who ate its brain.Or something. The Destroyer War was mostly a Crab/Scorpion/Unicorn/Lion/Spider show. The Crane, Dragon, Phoenix and Mantis were basically AWOL for most of that arc. Crane got the plague (mostly told in card text, and honestly, not that much there), and the Dragon and Phoenix were...busy with the remnants of the Army of Dark Fire or something. Nothing we ever heard much about (actually, come to think of it, some plagued Lion even showed up there to upstage the Dragon. Ugh.). The Mantis were just plain absent until the final battle.

11 hours ago, Builder2 said:

Just a thought, but in 14 years of Thrones they've never given players the option of playing as the Others (White Walkers in the show).

Well, there were a handful of Others plot back in the CCG and some undead characters, but you're right that the Others were never a playable faction (in the CCG, you had to choose a Great House, and the LCG added a neutral faction card a few years in, but there were no more Others-themed cards). Factions beyond the Core ones aren't unheard of, but they're usually annonced in the Core (the AGoT LCG 1.0 Core Set had the Martell and Greyjoy House cards; the Star Wars Core Set has the Smugglers and Spies and the Scum and Villainy affiliation cards, along with a few objectives of those factions; the Conquest Core Set shows Tyranids and Necrons with the alignment wheel at the end of the LtP book).

As a dedicated Mantis player, I am sad but not surprised. For a relaunch of the game it makes a lot of sense to move back to those 7 clans, and I don't think it will stop me playing the game. When they declared the Mantis wouldn't appear in Gold, we had no more information than we have now about a definitive return, so why should this be any different? What will be interesting is whether there are cards in the base set that reflect Mantis presence at all, as well as that of the Spider, or from an even longer-term perspective, the Shadowlands and Ronin.

Bearing in mind that the game is relaunching, hoping to capture the hearts and minds of both legacy and new fans, we have to give FFG time and space to grow those factions into the story and game as and when there is space. That may well take time, so lets not just assume that the first expansion will immediately drop a new clan with potentially additional mechanics into the mix. More sensible would be to retain some of the flavour by printing non-faction cards that can join certain clans etc to start. At least in Gold I (having auctioned my loyalties in true Mantis fashion at a Charity Auction to the Crane) I could play cards like Kamoto and Mantis bushi to retain clan flavour.

From a story perspective, I would hope things move forward, not reset. It provides an opportunity to explain the lack of Mantis and Spider presence through story, as well as planting seeds to keep us hooked. It gives us legacy players so much to pass on to new players, just as I got from Day of Thunder players when I started playing in Jade. A reset would be a huge mistake as legacy players would either know it all already or complain endlessly about changes to the established story.

Unfortunately the FFG hype train is far too late leaving the station for a lot of us European players to commit to a trip to Gencon for which L5R would be the main focus. I would truly love to be there and may even have swung it through a combination of work travel and cashing in of ten years worth of brownie points But I am sure as hell looking forward to the global launch and our first events in Ireland.

I still think that any major information won't start coming out until April at the earliest.

The reboot will be nice if they decided to do a good work. BUT, L5R is not a new game. It has a great community all over the years and this community i believe that need to know something. This is also an issue about the Mantis players. It will be nice to know something about the future of the clan.

Terra Ludica There will be some changes, yes. But the developpers told me that they will start from the beginning of first version and then implement new mechanics. So there's hope after all!

22 hours ago, Morbius31 said:

Am I the only one noticing some alphabet going wrong here? Crab always comes before Crane ^^

Poster boys always go first.

17 hours ago, Obscene said:

FFG was experimenting with delivering story inserts into conquest before the GW partnership ended.

Back in the days when Invasion was a thing, they also included some story arcs inside the packs. And those were fun to read and really made the cards meaningfull.

12 hours ago, the eigensheep said:

They could do something similar to Conquest with an alignment wheel to allow for each clan to pair with two "neighboring" clans, presumably using allegiances that would make the most sense.

I really hated that in Conquest and I would hate that in L5R. I know it was innovative, but it didn't make sense to me as a fluff fan of WH40k. I know there are some ancestral hatred between clans, but alliances may be more volatile. I understand people not liking to splash cards, but I usually found myself looking at a Crane courtier and saying "I would gladly overpay that character and include it in my Scorpion deck".

7 hours ago, sndwurks said:

The Scorpion Clan were the vicious Underhand of the Emperor, serving the Empire as the villains who operated through the shadows and blackmail. And EVERYONE hated the Scorpion Clan, except the Dragon.

Some say villains, I may say heros!

1 hour ago, kempy said:

Terra Ludica There will be some changes, yes. But the developpers told me that they will start from the beginning of first version and then implement new mechanics. So there's hope after all!

I'm more in a feeling of: "Wait and see" than speculating on unofficial stuffs. However, that sentence worries me a bit and here's why.

Will they do a lazy job of reusing the whole storyline as is? Which means no player's interraction with the story. (It could last as long as the first version, just with different cards, minus the communauty selection.)

That's my biggest concerns about it. Let's say that they do start with the Scorpion Coup, if there's no communauty's choice, we all know that the Crab will ally with the Shadowlands for the Throne, creating the Clan War and so on. No more interractivity at all until Onyx Empire, which is a long road...

Then, it's the other way around, they allow communauty's choice and not using the storyline as is. I don't know if everyone would be willing to take the same direction as before. Will the Crab communauty will go for the Throne by allying with the Shadowlands, knowing they will probably get backstab again? I doubt it. This would probably mean, major chances to the storyline, but are their storyteam is ready for that?

So, I'll wait and see for anything official.

On the second hand. On main L5R LCG page they added quote from Matsu Masutaro that in CCG appeared only in 1000 Years of Darkness expansion. You know KYD .

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/legend-of-the-five-rings-the-card-game/

While I do agree the alphabet order is wrong, please remember the poster is in FRENCH, which means for the order of that language, Unicorn is also out of place.

Grue, Crabe, Dragon, Lion, Phénix, Scorpion, Licorne

Grue? Crap, is it that dark?

Yep, every time you were eaten in those dark corners, it was in fact a french crane...Puts a new perspective on things, right?

After seeing this art, and considering other FFG Living Card Games....

I think we are looking at this all wrong. Everyone is concerned about where they will bring the story....

Well, if they were resetting to clan wars, having only these 7 makes sense-- the Mantis don't exist and the Shadowlands are dormant.

If they were continuing through Onyx, this makes sense-- the Spider Clan was left behind in charge of the Empire and the Mantis fell apart and got dissolved.

BUT... consider this. The Star Wars Destiny card game? It doesn't take place in any particular era-- it uses characters and settings and artifacts across the franchise from the prequels to the latest movies.

Similarly, the WarHammer LCG... it doesn't take place in a world that can morph or change. All characters printed are effectively immortal as far as any "story" goes.

Given that this is an LCG and that for the base set, absolutely no player is expected to put down more than $120 on the set... with no support for a secondary market, no sort of gambling with boosters, no real way to do "sealed" or "draft" tournaments... that there just aren't going to be people buying boxes and boxes of unneeded cardboard in the form of the thousands of commons one would pick up while trying to get ahold of a playset of that rare card necessary to make any deck competitive....

This means there won't be enough money going into the product to support a story team, there won't be any sort of story tournaments or prizes, there won't be clan letters or weekly fictions... you can expect all the trappings that made the old game unique and inspired a fanatical fanbase to be entirely gone. I imagine LGS won't even support play of the game because well... everyone can buy direct here, what money is the LGS going to be making from this? The idea of local tournaments, much less Koteis and such... no real support for it. At least not from the company printing the game. Maybe the players can cobble it together on their own, BUT... it will have no effect on what gets printed.

Given all this, and the idea that the sets are intended to never "expire" with everything being legal henceforth... there is every reason to believe there won't be a storyline at all. It won't matter where in the timeline anything is set, because there will be no timeline!.. well, there will still be the old one, but nothing will advance with story.

This would effectively free FFG of the most continuous part of the job and they can just print well... whatever it is that seems suitable to them for any particular faction.

Expansions will come and I am sure the Shadowlands/Spider Clan and the Mantis will be delivered in those expansions.

Beyond that though... well... I guess it depends on whether they want to focus on introducing new factions in which case they just have to see that they are roughly balanced with the old ones... or expand new factions, in which case they have to watch out for accidentally creating extraordinarily broken combos.

they seem to manage a developing story with net-runner. Saying that I am nit a story fanatic and card blurb and maybe a story with each release would do me fine.

@TheHobgoblyn Stores support local play for the other LCGs. There are tournaments, including Kotei-level (though they're generally smaller than I remember those for L5R being). So it's not the end of the world as far as casual and competitive play are concerned. I think you're right about story prizes, clan letters and weekly fictions, though. However, since FFG purchased the whole license including the RPG, I guess that's where the story will be.

Lastly, FFG has introduced rotation into their LCG model. The Core Set and deluxe expansions stay legal forever, but monthly packs don't (they rotate out after a number of new packs).