I have been considering buying into this game. I tried looking for starters and a few boosters but can't find them anywhere. Now I read this and I dont think I want to get into this game if product is not going to be available. How is the community going to grow if there is no product on shelves? All the product is going to be pre-orders for people who already have the game and anything on shelves will be gone in a week.

23 hours ago, Stone37 said:

There is not talk of rotation from FFG. Only the limited runs that each set will have. Each year we will get a base set and Starters that will be printed all year and 2 limited sets that will only be in print about 4 months. Nothing more or less has come from FFG.

FFG did say that new bases sets would replace previous base sets. I kinda feel like that implies some type of rotation, maybe just at the tournament level. I hope I'm wrong.

I don't want this to turn into Magic, where each year's base set reprints prior cards.

23 hours ago, pstalker said:

This is my thought exactly. You do 1 print run to keep it collectible. As long as that print run is 4x larger than what Awakenings was then there will be no problem. This should stress the need for everybody to get to their FLGS and actually do pre-orders. Pre-orders will allow FFG to know how much stock they need to print to satisfy demand and everything will be fine.

Most stores wanted the game after seeing how popular it was. They showed up at 8:30 for a ship the set sale at 8:00. FFG sent out pre-orders to all the stores.

18 hours ago, Buhallin said:

As several people have pointed out, this announcement actually tells us very little about supply issues in the future. It tells us how they're batching, but says literally nothing about how big the batches are so we have no idea how well it might meet demand.

So it still relies on two things: How much you trust FFG to estimate the demand properly, and whether they have the production capacity to meet that demand. Based on recent history... well...

I think your analysis is spot on. In regards to your question, I would expect FFG to struggle with SoR and to a lesser extent the next set. I think they'll have it figured out for the first set of 2018. FFG seems to struggle mightily with product launches and then work out the kinks over the next couple of sets.

5 hours ago, Hawkman2000 said:

FFG did say that new bases sets would replace previous base sets. I kinda feel like that implies some type of rotation, maybe just at the tournament level. I hope I'm wrong.

I don't want this to turn into Magic, where each year's base set reprints prior cards.

Without reading into what has been said by FFG; the base set will (unlike expansion sets) be printed for an entire year. Expansions will run for about 4 months. Each base set will also have starter decks that will also be printed for the run of that set.

FFG has only stated what their plans for printing this game is and has not given us any model for a rotation of cards that will come in and out of tournament legality.

While we don't know what the rotation will be, I am pretty sure we don't have to worry about it for a couple of years. The whole point of a rotating base set is to reprint old staples and bring them back into the standard rotation. Otherwise it is just another expansion.

And yes, I was very disappointed when I heard this was going to be a CCG. The dice would have made really nice LCG expansion packs. CCGs are just wrong for gamers on so many levels. Great for investors and I am sure it will make FFG monies. Right now they have set themselves up to make a killing off the hoarders and price gougers which are going to suck up supply no matter how much they produce, which I don't see being a lot any time soon. The base set sounds like a band aid for the supply issues.

10 hours ago, DailyRich said:

And I know people will say, "But that's a terrible way to try to get all the legendaries." Which is true -- if that's what your goal is. If your goal is just to get cards to play with? Having to have $100+ ready the moment pre-orders go live to have any guarantee of getting product isn't the way to build a player base.

There are several things that are different in Destiny though. For one thing, it's Star Wars, and there's that attachment to the characters. Those big-name characters are often Legendary. Nobody has any particular attachment to Magic Dude 728 - I never wanted to play Nicol Bolas back in the day because it was him. It was a random name on random art. But Darth Vader... Yeah, people want to play Vader, and telling them that they've got a 0.09% chance of pulling him in a pack - and have to do that TWICE - is rough.

The other problem compared to other CCGs is that Destiny has an inordinate reliance on rares. It's literally impossible to build a deck that isn't made up of half rare cards. This makes the "buy a few random packs and I've got enough to play" just not work. Even assuming you can make decent use of some of the dice in the starters, you've got to buy around 1/3 of a box just to have enough dice, quantity-wise, to play with... and that says nothing about whether those dice will work together.

IMHO this a big part of why the shortage is so painful - it hits at both ends. People who wanted to play early had to buy more than they might have otherwise to get what they needed. Those who tried to get in late couldn't get much, if any, and found that what they did have wasn't enough to provide a satisfying play experience. But they think the game is good, and want more, but can't get it.

Double post!

Oooh, triple! Sorry.

1 hour ago, Buhallin said:

There are several things that are different in Destiny though. For one thing, it's Star Wars, and there's that attachment to the characters. Those big-name characters are often Legendary. Nobody has any particular attachment to Magic Dude 728 - I never wanted to play Nicol Bolas back in the day because it was him. It was a random name on random art. But Darth Vader... Yeah, people want to play Vader, and telling them that they've got a 0.09% chance of pulling him in a pack - and have to do that TWICE - is rough.

The other problem compared to other CCGs is that Destiny has an inordinate reliance on rares. It's literally impossible to build a deck that isn't made up of half rare cards. This makes the "buy a few random packs and I've got enough to play" just not work. Even assuming you can make decent use of some of the dice in the starters, you've got to buy around 1/3 of a box just to have enough dice, quantity-wise, to play with... and that says nothing about whether those dice will work together.

IMHO this a big part of why the shortage is so painful - it hits at both ends. People who wanted to play early had to buy more than they might have otherwise to get what they needed. Those who tried to get in late couldn't get much, if any, and found that what they did have wasn't enough to provide a satisfying play experience. But they think the game is good, and want more, but can't get it.

You make a good point. I agree to some extent. However, for myself and the small group of folks at my LGS I play with, we were mostly happy (or at least content) to make due with the few characters we were able to get, trade for, and occasionally buy a single or two on-line. Was fun to be able to go to the store a couple times over a couple weeks and pick up a few booster packs (until they ran out...). So maybe we didn't all get to make our dream decks, but we've had a blast with the decks we have been able to make!

4 hours ago, Mep said:

While we don't know what the rotation will be, I am pretty sure we don't have to worry about it for a couple of years.

Set rotation will become a key issue, and a lot faster than it was an issue for other games like MTG.

With the information provided what's been printed for Awakenings is done, an additional limited print (i.e. smaller than the initial batch) is to be printed and release in June which will no doubt sell out in record time due to the "last chance" aspect for all the speculators out there.

Now come December this year with a new star wars movie, potentially an influx of new players trying to get their star wars fix. They want Vader (or any other top end awakenings legendary), but you know what, Vader has been OOP for months and his price is close to or probably over the $100 mark because, well, there's not enough to go round.

The longer OOP cards remain playable in the base format of the game, the less likely new players get into the game it's that simple, and for a game to be out for barely 3 months and virtually already in that position of OOP cards, along with the printing policy announced I really can't see it working any other way.

Realistically if there isn't a rotation policy in place within the next 12 months that has a 2 year cycle max the game will become impossibly hard to get into for new players.

So, what does "Rotation" mean for the collector?

Specifically, will I not need to buy certain Portions of new sets because they will contain older cards circulated within the new rotations?

For tournament players-

Will there realistically be a time where the current Vader is no longer legal in tournaments having gone too far beyond the original Awakenings set?

Thanks for all answers, I feel foreign to this rotation, sets, and legal talk about cards.

20 minutes ago, Virtigo said:

Will there realistically be a time where the current Vader is no longer legal in tournaments having gone too far beyond the original Awakenings set?

Yes, if the game sticks around for a bit, there is a near 100% chance that all of the Awakenings cards you currently own will rotate out of legality. That time frame, however, is unclear at this time. Some expect it sooner than later, like Holiday 2018 or even sooner, while myself and others don't expect it for 24-30 months at minimum. With their Living Card Game model, they historically have not rotated anything out of legality for about 5 years, plus or minus a year or so, but those games have expansions that see regular reprints. But at this time, all of that is speculation. The simple answer to your question is, yes, realistically, there will come a time when the current Vader and other Awakenings cards are no longer legal in tournaments.

18 hours ago, Virtigo said:

So, what does "Rotation" mean for the collector?

Specifically, will I not need to buy certain Portions of new sets because they will contain older cards circulated within the new rotations?

For tournament players-

Will there realistically be a time where the current Vader is no longer legal in tournaments having gone too far beyond the original Awakenings set?

Thanks for all answers, I feel foreign to this rotation, sets, and legal talk about cards.

I will preface my comments with the fact that currently there is only 1 know format currently (30 card decks 30 points of characters) which for players from other games would typically be called "Standard"

Rotation in terms of a CCG is when older sets are removed from the legal pool of cards to play in the "standard" format. This allows several beneficial things to happen:

Evolving formats that do not stagnate around particular cards for too long (imagine playing against the same "best deck" for years on end, not fun).

It allows newer players to get into the game and build competitive decks without having to buy long OOP (Out Of Print) cards for crazy secondary market prices, Imagine how much Vader will be worth in 2-3 years' time if he turns out to be the best card from awakenings and still playable in standard.

It contains power creep from taking over a format, for a game to sell new sets the cards must be good enough, which means on some level the cards need to be subtly better than the cards printed before them otherwise players won't buy the new sets. The more cards printed before the new sets that are still legal for play, the more likely power creep is which in effect makes the older cards redundant anyways.

Now some will tell you that rotation is just a money grab and that it takes away your toys that you have been playing with, and to an extent this is true for tournament players, but that still doesn’t stop you playing casually with whatever you like if that’s your jam.

14 hours ago, bravo29 said:

Magic started out like this. Still going strong after what 20+ years?

so there is 20+ years of data to be used that they failed to figure in to get it right

1 hour ago, soviet prince said:

so there is 20+ years of data to be used that they failed to figure in to get it right

Perhaps you should apply for CFO or CFOO at FFG if they have one. If they don't maybe they will create the position for you. You can show them how it should be done and we the consumers will never have to worry about product shortages again.

It's a win for everybody. FFG will finally have someone who knows what they're doing. You'll get to be a high ranking executive at a small company, unless you are already that at a medium or large company that should be good for you. The rest of us get unlimited access to Destiny, or at least as much as we can afford.

My real criticism of FFG is why are they still using foreign manufacturers? There are quality printers here in the US that would deliver the product much quicker and more reliably. There are many US based game companies that have now switched to US based printers. My upcoming game that I will be Kickstarting will be printed in the USA.

26 minutes ago, Stone37 said:

My real criticism of FFG is why are they still using foreign manufacturers?

$$$

34 minutes ago, Stone37 said:

My real criticism of FFG is why are they still using foreign manufacturers? There are quality printers here in the US that would deliver the product much quicker and more reliably. There are many US based game companies that have now switched to US based printers. My upcoming game that I will be Kickstarting will be printed in the USA.

The issue with non-Chinese printers are dice nor cards or any other component.

European manufactures print in China too, above all for plastic materials (miniatures for example).

Destiny dice would be really expensive outside of China, I guess.

...and look at the quality of promo cards for Destiny and/or Destiny.

THAT is the quality FFG has with its own printer and, frankly, they are quite subpar imho

23 hours ago, Hawkman2000 said:

FFG did say that new bases sets would replace previous base sets. I kinda feel like that implies some type of rotation, maybe just at the tournament level. I hope I'm wrong.

I don't want this to turn into Magic, where each year's base set reprints prior cards.

As a Magic player, just wanna inform y'all that they're done doing (major) reprints or base sets for that matter. Now it's just new blocks after new blocks (each block consists of 2 expansions).

As for SWD, I'm beginning to think they have a limited reprint and (random) booster packing contract or policy with their foreign printing companies. Thus the need to revamp and "restructure" the contents of a single set annually. And of course, let's not forget the premium dice. I think they cost quite a lot to manufacture.

Those with a fixed amount of cards being printed and packed (their LCGs) don't have that kind of ... limitations, thus they can be printed, packed, and shipped again and again.

10 hours ago, Starbane said:

Perhaps you should apply for CFO or CFOO at FFG if they have one. If they don't maybe they will create the position for you. You can show them how it should be done and we the consumers will never have to worry about product shortages again.

Could you come up with a more generic fanboy response? I mean really, isn't this a built-in macro on the forums somewhere?

I'm a software engineer. The people who use my products deserve quality from me, and for me to do my job well, whether they're capable software engineers or not. FFG produces games. We're perfectly entitled to expect them to do their jobs well whether you, I, or anyone else could do them at all, much less better.

I've never quite figured out where this argument comes from. If you're out at a restaurant and your dinner comes burned, nobody says "Well, go cook it yourself then!" When did it somehow become a defense of game companies?

17 hours ago, Zordren said:

Was fun to be able to go to the store a couple times over a couple weeks and pick up a few booster packs (until they ran out...). So maybe we didn't all get to make our dream decks, but we've had a blast with the decks we have been able to make!

You're actually pretty lucky then - I don't know of a single store in hour area that has had boosters last more than a day. All the stores in less than an hour drive from me have had their stock time measured in hours, and many of them never even got enough to fill their preorders.

It's the gaming equivalent of the "White Knight" response.

4 hours ago, blackholexan said:

The issue with non-Chinese printers are dice nor cards or any other component.

European manufactures print in China too, above all for plastic materials (miniatures for example).

Destiny dice would be really expensive outside of China, I guess.

There is a lot of truth to this. Quality cards can be printed in the US often cheaper than they can be in China. Dice and other custom components are a little trickier.

4 hours ago, blackholexan said:

...and look at the quality of promo cards for Destiny and/or Destiny.

THAT is the quality FFG has with its own printer and, frankly, they are quite subpar imho

This has everything to do with the low quality of the equipment/materials FFG are using and not US printer's abilities to make quality cards at a competitive cost.

I'm surprised FFG has not invested in higher quality printing equipment at this point. They are no longer a small game maker.