I'd rather they invest the money in more seasoned rules writing staff and a lot more play testers.

1 hour ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

I'd rather they invest the money in more seasoned rules writing staff and a lot more play testers.

This is FFG dude...

3 hours ago, Buhallin said:

Could you come up with a more generic fanboy response? I mean really, isn't this a built-in macro on the forums somewhere?

I'm a software engineer. The people who use my products deserve quality from me, and for me to do my job well, whether they're capable software engineers or not. FFG produces games. We're perfectly entitled to expect them to do their jobs well whether you, I, or anyone else could do them at all, much less better.

I've never quite figured out where this argument comes from. If you're out at a restaurant and your dinner comes burned, nobody says "Well, go cook it yourself then!" When did it somehow become a defense of game companies?

Not a fanboy. I'm just an individual who understands I don't have the complete picture and shouldn't speak about the subject as if I had all the details at my disposal.

I'm a Quality Engineer and I have some experience in manufacturing quality products as well as products with quality issues. I've been forced to write corrective actions for customers who received inferior product and I've dined at the expense of customers who were thrilled with what they received. I have been a part of new product development teams that have taken products from conception to the retail market. I've worked with and audited suppliers. Quality is my livelihood.

I've worked the agriculture, automotive, and aircraft industries. Sadly, I have not worked in the gaming industry so there could be issues I don't understand. However, I know that I may not have all the information I need to understand or solve the problem.

FFG gave you a quality product. They just didn't make enough. For all we know they may have filled all the orders they took prior to going to production and the June reprint is an attempt to fulfill the orders they've received since. Do we know if they failed to fulfill any of the orders they accepted? If they did that would be a quality problem.

The restaurant analogy, just a bad one. By all means complain about the shortage for it surely exist. Just don't speak of it as if the solution is easy when you don't even know all the details of the problem. It's important people understand the limitations of their knowledge.

25 minutes ago, Starbane said:

FFG gave you a quality product. They just didn't make enough. For all we know they may have filled all the orders they took prior to going to production and the June reprint is an attempt to fulfill the orders they've received since. Do we know if they failed to fulfill any of the orders they accepted? If they did that would be a quality problem.

The restaurant analogy, just a bad one. By all means complain about the shortage for it surely exist. Just don't speak of it as if the solution is easy when you don't even know all the details of the problem. It's important people understand the limitations of their knowledge.

To use a different analogy, if there were a restaurant that made good food but half their menu was unavailable due to spply issues every time you went in, would you say they're doing a good job? Properly estimating and meeting demand is part of their job. Especially for a game like this, which relies very heavily on community to thrive.

We don't have to know every detail of every decision they made to know that the ball-dropping on Destiny was absolutely epic. Which would be somewhat more understandable if it didn't happen so very often with FFG.

32 minutes ago, Starbane said:

3 hours ago, Buhallin said:

To use a different analogy, if there were a restaurant that made good food but half their menu was unavailable due to spply issues every time you went in, would you say they're doing a good job? Properly estimating and meeting demand is part of their job. Especially for a game like this, which relies very heavily on community to thrive.

We don't have to know every detail of every decision they made to know that the ball-dropping on Destiny was absolutely epic. Which would be somewhat more understandable if it didn't happen so very often with FFG.

I have a local restaurant that serves amazing food. They frequently have more people waiting to be seated than they have seated and eating. In fact the waiting area is larger than the dining area. When asked by a local newspaper if they planned on expanding their available seating they answered no. The reason was that they don't have the kitchen capacity to support more tables. So they make what they can and serve as many people daily as they're able. True story, not hypothetical situation.

Yes you do need more knowledge to properly judge the situation and make claims about how easy it is to fix.

edit: And yes, some people don't get served at the restaurant I'm talking about. I have been turned away multiple times, but I still go back cause it's worth it when I get to eat there. I've learned to call ahead or make reservations (preorders) when they're taking them. Yes, sometimes they don't take reservations.

2nd edit: Fun Star Wars related fact. Han Solo himself, Harrison Ford is known to eat at that restaurant when he is in town. What do you want to bet he doesn't have the same problem getting a table I have.?

6 minutes ago, Starbane said:

I have a local restaurant that serves amazing food. They frequently have more people waiting to be seated than they have seated and eating. In fact the waiting area is larger than the dining area. When asked by a local newspaper if they planned on expanding their available seating they answered no. The reason was that they don't have the kitchen capacity to support more tables. So they make what they can and serve as many people daily as they're able. True story, not hypothetical situation.

Yes you do need more knowledge to properly judge the situation and make claims about how easy it is to fix.

edit: And yes, some people don't get served at the restaurant I'm talking about. I have been turned away multiple times, but I still go back cause it's worth it when I get to eat there. I've learned to call ahead or make reservations (preorders) when they're taking them. Yes, sometimes they don't take reservations.

And yet they do have other options, don't they? They could open a new location, they could expand their hours, they could find efficiency improvements. They choose not to take those options. They choose to limit their availability.

Is the only possible recourse for a disgruntled customer to open their own restaurant? Because that's what started this whole line of discussion - "If you can't run it yourself, STFU". If you happen to be forgiving, fine - you're allowed to make your own interpretation. But I tend to doubt your non-hypothetical restaurant owner tells his greeter to say "I'm sorry sir, we don't have any availability, but here's an interview form if you think you can do better!"

19 hours ago, Buhallin said:

And yet they do have other options, don't they? They could open a new location, they could expand their hours, they could find efficiency improvements. They choose not to take those options. They choose to limit their availability.

Is the only possible recourse for a disgruntled customer to open their own restaurant? Because that's what started this whole line of discussion - "If you can't run it yourself, STFU". If you happen to be forgiving, fine - you're allowed to make your own interpretation. But I tend to doubt your non-hypothetical restaurant owner tells his greeter to say "I'm sorry sir, we don't have any availability, but here's an interview form if you think you can do better!"

You started us down the restaurant path and I reluctantly followed.

They actually just say they are not taking anymore names for the waiting list.

What started this was people speaking about subjects of which they have insufficient or no knowledge of. You and others talk like companies have a bottomless supply of money and can afford to produce an unlimited supply of product just in case it does better than orders suggest it will. Companies have financial limitations and none of us know what FFG's are.

The agriculture company I worked for was a little bit smaller than the last number I saw for FFG. We had to be very cognizant of our cash flow and how we spent our money. We had to pay our bills on time and purchase with caution because we couldn't afford to have too much of our money tied up at once.

FFG supports many games and we don't know how much cash they have to put into any one game. Sure they could probably take out a loan to allow them to order more product but that might not be wise.

There is so much we don't know about this situation it's ridiculous. The fact they are frequently short on initial product runs could be a sign they've got their money spread as thin as they can afford to, maybe a little too thin.

1 hour ago, Buhallin said:

And yet they do have other options, don't they? They could open a new location, they could expand their hours, they could find efficiency improvements. They choose not to take those options. They choose to limit their availability.

Is the only possible recourse for a disgruntled customer to open their own restaurant? Because that's what started this whole line of discussion - "If you can't run it yourself, STFU". If you happen to be forgiving, fine - you're allowed to make your own interpretation. But I tend to doubt your non-hypothetical restaurant owner tells his greeter to say "I'm sorry sir, we don't have any availability, but here's an interview form if you think you can do better!"

I absolutely hate when people say "if you think you can do it better, then do it, otherwise don't complain!" That's one of the worst arguments there is. I will freely admit I'm a terrible actor, but that doesn't mean I can't judge professional actors on their acting ability. I have no idea how to throw a curveball, but I'm **** sure I'm allowed to state that Franklin Morales was a god-awful pitcher. We have every right to complain when someone doesn't do their job properly, even if they still do it better than I could.

well not to some. But hey, who is counting?

18 hours ago, Network57 said:

I absolutely hate when people say "if you think you can do it better, then do it, otherwise don't complain!" That's one of the worst arguments there is. I will freely admit I'm a terrible actor, but that doesn't mean I can't judge professional actors on their acting ability. I have no idea how to throw a curveball, but I'm **** sure I'm allowed to state that Franklin Morales was a god-awful pitcher. We have every right to complain when someone doesn't do their job properly, even if they still do it better than I could.

I'm saying by all means complain about the shortage. Its a real problem most of us can see the effects of.

However let's not pretend any of us understands the logistics of the problem and that all FFG has to do is snap their fingers and it's fixed.

The problem is most likely more complex than saying instead of ordering 50,000 of both starters and another 50,000 booster boxes FFG should've ordered 100,000 of each. We don't now what their supply chain could produce or if FFG has the cash flow to meet the terms. That's a lot of money we're talking about and companies have to pay their bills too.

Like I've said before, it's important to understand the limits of our knowledge. FFG wouldn't be the first company to bring a product to market that was more successful than they could have anticipated and be unable to meet demand. Maybe they're the big screw ups you all think they are. I don't know and neither do you.

There is a difference between complaining about a situation we actually knows exist and pretending that we know for a fact FFG was negligent. Sometimes bad things happen despite best intentions.

1 minute ago, Starbane said:

I'm saying by all means complain about the shortage. Its a real problem most of us can see the effects of.

However let's not pretend any of us understands the logistics of the problem and that all FFG has to do is snap their fingers and it's fixed.

The problem is most likely more complex than saying instead of ordering 50,000 of both starters and another 50,000 booster boxes FFG should've ordered 100,000 of each. We don't now what their supply chain could produce or if FFG has the cash flow to meet the terms. That's a lot of money we're talking about and companies have to pay their bills too.

Like I've said before it's important to understand the limits of our knowledge. FFG wouldn't be the first company to bring a product to market that was more successful than they could have anticipated and be unable to meet demand. Maybe they're the big screw ups you all think they are. I don't know and neither do you.

I don't say I do either. I agree with you 100%. I'm intensely curious as to why this all happening. But there just seem to be two arguments on these forums I do disagree with. Those who pretend it's not happening, or say "good riddance" to all of those complaining about shortages; and then those who defend FFG by simply stating "I'd like to see you do better!" My post was merely to point out the idiocy of that, that's all.

6 minutes ago, Network57 said:

I don't say I do either. I agree with you 100%. I'm intensely curious as to why this all happening. But there just seem to be two arguments on these forums I do disagree with. Those who pretend it's not happening, or say "good riddance" to all of those complaining about shortages; and then those who defend FFG by simply stating "I'd like to see you do better!" My post was merely to point out the idiocy of that, that's all.

I thought you may have been justifiably referring to a post I wrote in reply to a particular individual who thinks this is a cut and dried case and acts like FFG has unlimited money to put at risk.

I did suggest that if he thought he could do better perhaps he should. In my defense it was after repeated assertions that FFG screwed this up royally and anybody could do better. Never acknowledging that companies have limitations too.

I think the argument that we don't know the whole story, nor the logistics of the situation, is completely valid. We don't. There could be any number of reasons why the shortage has happened the way it has. I think many (obviously not all) of us who are frustrated by the whole thing are willing to allow FFG the time it needs to fix the problem. However, the article they put up has not alleviated many fears because it's not hard to read it as, "We're going to make a bit more Awakenings, then in the future we will make what we make. If the demand is higher than we make, sorry for your luck." Is that actually how it will play out? No idea until SoR arrives. If the logistics of printing this game require that it runs in a perpetual state of shortage, then maybe the smart practice is to only make 2 sets a year instead of 3, so that more production time can be given to each set? Perhaps the 2nd, as yet unannounced expansion, should be delayed so that Awakenings can be produced to the level that it needs to be. Maybe next year's 'core' set will have a lot of reprints, thereby allowing for gradual player base growth. I don't know the solution, but I know that if it is as hard to get product for the game moving forward as it is right now, then I will be one of the people who stop bothering to try. No sky is falling, no vitriol towards FFG, just a simple fact. If some players and FFG are happy with this being a game only a small number of people can stay involved in, then great. If that is not what they want, then this needs to be solved. I'm hoping they figure it out. Time will tell.

@Xindel

I agree. I found nothing reassuring about their article. Bear in mind the following is speculation and not based on knowledge I have of FFG operations.

I think we will have a lot of unhappy people in June.

I think we'll have a Shortage with SotR, but not as bad as Awakenings for various reasons.

I believe the 3rd set will see improvement, but still come up a little short.

I'm hopeful that the 2018 base set will be the first to meet demand.

Just my take based on my personal experience with FFG in the past.

I hope you are correct.. mostly. I know that it is already hard to place preorders for SoR, so that is a concern. Hopefully, that is just places being cautious about taking more preorders than they will be able to fill until they know what they are getting. Or, even better, maybe some Retailers are only going to allow a certain percentage of their product to be purchased via preorder so there is something to sell at release time. Again, time will tell.

2 hours ago, Buhallin said:

And yet they do have other options, don't they? They could open a new location, they could expand their hours, they could find efficiency improvements. They choose not to take those options. They choose to limit their availability.

Is the only possible recourse for a disgruntled customer to open their own restaurant? Because that's what started this whole line of discussion - "If you can't run it yourself, STFU". If you happen to be forgiving, fine - you're allowed to make your own interpretation. But I tend to doubt your non-hypothetical restaurant owner tells his greeter to say "I'm sorry sir, we don't have any availability, but here's an interview form if you think you can do better!"

All the time people are told to wait. Some walk away, some come back another time. Some just set on their ... and complain thinking it will somehow get them something.

No reasoning with hate, no matter what format it takes

18 hours ago, Starbane said:

Perhaps you should apply for CFO or CFOO at FFG if they have one. If they don't maybe they will create the position for you. You can show them how it should be done and we the consumers will never have to worry about product shortages again.

It's a win for everybody. FFG will finally have someone who knows what they're doing. You'll get to be a high ranking executive at a small company, unless you are already that at a medium or large company that should be good for you. The rest of us get unlimited access to Destiny, or at least as much as we can afford.

except it's not that easy to get a high ranking job like that

7 hours ago, Stone37 said:

There is a lot of truth to this. Quality cards can be printed in the US often cheaper than they can be in China. Dice and other custom components are a little trickier.

This has everything to do with the low quality of the equipment/materials FFG are using and not US printer's abilities to make quality cards at a competitive cost.

I'm surprised FFG has not invested in higher quality printing equipment at this point. They are no longer a small game maker.

that would require them to do more then the bare min

3 hours ago, Starbane said:

You started us down the restaurant path and I reluctantly followed.

They actually just say they are not taking anymore names for the waiting list.

What started this was people speaking about subjects of which they have insufficient or no knowledge of. You and others talk like companies have a bottomless supply of money and can afford to produce an unlimited supply of product just in case it does better than orders suggest it will. Companies have financial limitations and none of us know what FFG's are.

The agriculture company I worked for was a little bit smaller than the last number I saw for FFG. We had to be very cognizant of our cash flow and how we spent our money. We had to pay our bills on time and purchase with caution because we couldn't afford to have too much of our money tied up at once.

FFG supports many games and we don't know how much cash they have to put into any one game. Sure they could probably take out a loan to allow them to order more product but that might not be wise.

There is so much we don't know about this situation it's ridiculous. The fact they are frequently short on initial product runs could be a sign they've got their money spread as thin as they can afford to.

they profited big time with destiny that it sold out they have to have some money to spend there just so chicken to lose a dollar they don't want to put anything in it.

On ‎2‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 10:23 AM, Obscene said:

The limited print runs will cause cards to continue to bear a high price.

If there isn't a rotation for competitive play, powerful old cards will become to expensive to be purchasable by newer players.
If there is a rotation, the limited printed runs still cause an spike in card price but ultimately causing your investment to devalue sharply after an x amount; unless there is an eternal formation, which I recommend looking at the above point.

It's not the "limited" print fun, it's how extremely limited they are. Having a 4 month long print for the smaller expansions will create insane prices if a powercard is printed there. 100 dollars plus.

This guy understands ccg. Agreed. Was going to get into destiny but not anymore with how they've described their intended card rotations. It's like FFG is trying to kill the game.

4 hours ago, Gibbilo said:

This guy understands ccg. Agreed. Was going to get into destiny but not anymore with how they've described their intended card rotations. It's like FFG is trying to kill the game.

they never said it was a rotation ppl just jumped to conclusion

34 minutes ago, soviet prince said:

they never said it was a rotation ppl just jumped to conclusion

I think he was reading between the lines more than anything, the complete lack of any statement from FFG regarding rotation clearly implies that there won't be a rotation policy (at least for now) and with cards going OOP within a couple months of release anyone who's not already "in" can't get in now or in the future short of paying criminally over-costed prices for sets or singles.

On 3/2/2017 at 6:57 PM, Xindell said:

I hope you are correct.. mostly. I know that it is already hard to place preorders for SoR, so that is a concern. Hopefully, that is just places being cautious about taking more preorders than they will be able to fill until they know what they are getting. Or, even better, maybe some Retailers are only going to allow a certain percentage of their product to be purchased via preorder so there is something to sell at release time. Again, time will tell.

Id bet most places are limiting preorders to the number of Awakening boxes they got. Miniature Market doesnt want to be 450+ boxes short again so probably stopped preorders at how many ever Awakenings boxes they got.

4 hours ago, Mace Windu said:

I think he was reading between the lines more than anything, the complete lack of any statement from FFG regarding rotation clearly implies that there won't be a rotation policy (at least for now) and with cards going OOP within a couple months of release anyone who's not already "in" can't get in now or in the future short of paying criminally over-costed prices for sets or singles.

This. Let's assume Rotation is 2 years, anything less would be completely insane. Second set has some ridiculous card that is a MUST have for a color or side. If after 3 months boxes are hard to find then the price will skyrocket. Then the guy buying in about a year and a half later needs that card and its going for over 80 a piece, see Jace the Mind Sculptor for an example.

Honestly it sounds like the 2018 base set will be a re-launch to stabilize the game and finally bring it to new players. This will be the mass production that everyone has been asking for.

It took magic three-four sets to make this happen as well. 4TH edition was there first true base set re-release. But this is 2017 as mentioned before. The ground was already laid for a good base model but FFG got it wrong.

With that being said, as long as they release staples from the starter's and boosters of 2017 it will be well received by new players. Then singles from the original run can be purchased through third party retailers to complete decks that people want.

I guess one wrench could be if there is a rotation. That will piss a lot of existing players and re-sellers off.

21 minutes ago, DJRAZZ said:

Honestly it sounds like the 2018 base set will be a re-launch to stabilize the game and finally bring it to new players. This will be the mass production that everyone has been asking for.

It took magic three-four sets to make this happen as well. 4TH edition was there first true base set re-release. But this is 2017 as mentioned before. The ground was already laid for a good base model but FFG got it wrong.

With that being said, as long as they release staples from the starter's and boosters of 2017 it will be well received by new players. Then singles from the original run can be purchased through third party retailers to complete decks that people want.

I guess one wrench could be if there is a rotation. That will piss a lot of existing players and re-sellers off.

Oh NOES!! We wouldn't want to inconvenience though low life scum bag re-sellers that hoard product reducing availability to actual players who then resell at disgusting overinflated prices……

LOL. But all the good folks on here who have dropped a ton. Oh well such is the nature of CCG's. We are all gonna get it up front or in the back.