Hi there, fellow Munchkins

A question as to the functioning of the Delay Action and the Quick-Draw talent.

Delay lets you reserve a Half-Action, to be used at any time of your choosing until the start of your next turn. All well and good. But can you also, when you decide to make use of your reserved Half-action also perform additional Free-Actions at the same time?

I can see both legitimate uses for it, but also potential problems and fodder for rules-lawyers.

Example:

Bob eyes the suspicious-looking dreg warily, expecting trouble. He is ready to draw and fire at any sign of sudden moves. The unknown (but probably Heretic) man goes for his gun....

Bob was ready for it (having used a Delay action) and now wants to draw his own gun, faster than the dreg, and put a bullet in his head. A classic western scene, where our hero is so fast that he still wins the day, even though he waits for his opponent to make the first move.

Acceptable?

Now what if the situation was slightly changed:

Greg the Dreg does not like the look of this Bob fella, and certainly not the way he keeps staring at him. He expects trouble. After waiting for Bob to make a move for a while (a few turns of mutual delays) Greg decides to finish it. He draws and fires. Greg is fast. In fact, both Greg and Bob has Quick-Draw, and for sake of argument, identical Agility and Initiative scores.

However, Bob still gets to "interrupt" Greg, and make his Delayed action first. Even though Greg is just as fast and able.

It does not make sense to me that the last to act of these to equally skilled men gets to shoot first, but the way I read Delay to work, the advantage goes to the one who "reacts", as he in fact gets to act on his previous turn.

Am I reading the rules wrong? Are the rules "wrong"?

You've seemed to get it right from my POV. I don't really have a problem with that, especially in eithier of the two scenarios you've described. Seems to work fine, and as intended without being 'unbalenced'.

If Bob has quickdraw but Greg doesn't, then I'd say Bob interrupts Greg just as Greg gets his gun clear of his holser. Bob shoots before Greg.

If both Bob and Greg have quickdraw, then I'd say that an Agility test is called for. The winner by most degrees of success draws first. Maybe add a Hive worlder's Wary trait as a bonus?

The only problem stems from situation two and Bob's player being a rules lawyer, demanding that he interrupts Greg's draw regardless. At that point, perhaps they should have a staring contest? Test Willpower until one snaps and goes for his gun?

I'd not add the benifits of 'Wary' twice as in the above stated scenario their Inititives are the same and in this case would have already included the benifits of that trait, 'Wary' doesn't give a bonus to Dodge tests so I fail to see how it might apply here.

The heart of the issue is whether one thinks 'Delay', as an action, is valid moreso than does Bob or Greg get the drop. A a mechanic I don't have a problem with Delay, remember it likely means the character has refrained from doing anything but waiting, perched, prepared and ready to respond to something (specific or general).

I also fail to see how Bob (or his player) is a Rules Lawyer, but I guesse RL is a rather subjective matter. In the above scenario I see Bob as using the Delay action as it seems to have been intended, and the cinematic Gunslinger moment portrayed would only serve to make me enjoy the game or scene more not lament that my player was being a RL.

I think my issue here is that a player expects that his character should always get to act first, due to a combination of Quick-Draw, Lightnening reactions, high Ininitative end other relevant skills, stats and talents.

A more provocative example could be:

Bob and Greg are in a standoff, but Bob has the advantage of having his weapon drawn. For rules-purposes, they are both Delaying while talking (a free action)

Bob is pointing the bolter at the Heretics face, saying "Any last words, Heretic?"
Greg replies "Yes, actually. Now that you ask …"
The Heretic moves with inhuman speed, whips out his plasma-pistol and evaporates Bob, before Bob get to squeeze the trigger….

Greg, having quick-draw would per the RAW ready his gun instantaneously, and might very well beat Bob in an Agility test to see who acts first (Lets say Gregs Initiative is much higher than Bob).

As GM I would let common sense prevail, and let Bob react before Greg gets his shot off, but this is what I meant with fodder for Rules-lawyers. Gregs player might feel that I'm cheating him out of his "oomph" that he has shelled out valuable XP for.

That's exactly the sort of thing that I was trying to get at. If it was two players going at each other rather than an Acolyte and an NPC, how would you as a GM resolve those arguments?

"But I had my bolt pistol ready in case he tried something!"

"But I have Quickdraw!"

"Well my Agility is higher than yours!"

"Well drawing my gun is a free action!"

"I would have shot him before he had a chance to shoot me!"

"Hey! Don't make me stop the car!"

Those are the arguements that a GM has to get around. The classic wild west moment, or a Mexican standoff. Proper tension. How is it resolved? Typically I'd call for an Agility contest. At least if you lose you might be able to Dodge as a reaction.

If I were the prepared player in this example (Bob), having through clever tactica managed to get into the tactically superior position of having drawn my gun first, I would be unhappy that this advantage was completely removed by Gregs Quick-Draw, putting us back to a pure "the one with the highest Initiative wins" state.

Why bother with tactics and thinking at all? The Quick-Drawing Greg is basically immune to being out-tacticked by his imense reaction powers and speed of the draw.

Perhaps I am overdramatizing the issue here, but per the RAW the GM is left to make a judgement call that will leave at least one of the players feeling cheated somehow.

Sure. That's what I was trying to illustrate.

But then, that's kind of what Quickdraw is for isn't it? You're the first one with his gun out when the grox dung hits the air purifier.

I think that, in the interest of fairness to a Player who has prepared for this sort of thing by readying his gun, Bob should get to shoot Greg before Greg after pulls the gun, but before Greg shoots. If he misses then Greg is free to aim and shoot (or shoot and move, or whatever, he's still got his entire turn left). But the rules get a bit sticky don't they.

In the scenario where both of the comabants have the same stats and talents, why not considering that they draw and fire at the exactly same time? Whoever hits wins.

Or they both hit....could end up being deadly for them both

And then Dark Heresy was Resevoir Dogs.

bah i need a pocket copy of the rulebook to keep on me at all times!

quickdraw has nothing to do with shooting first. per the talent, it allows you to draw as a free action instead of having to spend a half action doing it. I thought it mentioned in the description of delay that if you were trying to interrupt on another person's initiative you had to beat them in an agility test.

bob is delayed

greg goes to shoot

bob wants to use delay to shoot

bob and greg roll agility tests to see who goes first. greg gets 2 successes, bob gets one.

scenario ends like this:

GREG: Any las requests? (draws las pistol)

BOB: As a matter of fact...(quickdraws gun and attempts to shoot first)

GREG: (Fires Gun killing Bob) "No las requests? Thought so."

(Las used instead of Last for comedic effect)

Thanks, that makes sense.

I did read that part of the rules, but I understood it to mean that if two people both on Delay wanted to interrupt and react to the same event, then those two would roll opposed Agility to resolve who gets to go first.

This ruling does give the edge to the one with the fastest moves, which is nice. A person with Quick-Draw and a high agility is then truly a person to look out for. Can't feel safe even if you have got the drop on him

Shank thought he had the drop on the offworlder. He levelled his rusty old stub revolver at the newcomer with a dirty grin.

"Dat's a nice piece." The underhiver croaked. "If fink I'll take it off you, void-scum."

Like a bolt of lightning the off-rock visitor's hand swept the oiled laspistol from its holster, there was a flash of light and the sound of coals bursting over an open fire. Shank fell to the metal grating with a fading groan, a smoking hole through one of his lungs. The off-world newcomer tipped his hat, "I guess that Wary trait doesn't apply to NPCs then, huh?"

Headhanger said:

Well, to nit-pick, Wary only applies to Initiative rolls, not opposed Agility rolls. And he did get to act first, aye?

Okay so maybe it should have been "I guess that Wary trait doesn't always save your butt huh?"

Dark Heresy Rulebook (5m; 1D10+SB I; Primitive, Confers +10 bonus to Forbidden Lore (Dark Heresy)(Int) tests while equipped)

"It's a fair cop!"

Anyway, thanks all, I am happy that this issue has been resolved! Now just to resolve the other little things... like Dodgeing Knockdown, travel times in the warp, Righteous Fury with Tearing weapons, etc etc