Lol. All of you making the case for mind link. Fine, show me where in rebels or imperial that we can get the same action economy of that stupid good Asaji/Manaroo/Fenn mindlink list. Tell me again how stress hurts it. It seemed to have no problem nor a lack of tokens, even when stressed, to smack my ass all around the table at this weekend's tournament. Spare me any "git good" response, as I was 3-1 at the event, so I'm not such a bad pilot myself.

Manaroo is a god damned crutch and FFG has ramped up the power level on scum way too much.

17 minutes ago, Achowat said:

Can we just reject the premise of your question? X-Wing is not a game in need of fixing.

1) Yes we can reject the OP's question. 2) X-wing needs fixing, badly.

16 minutes ago, streamdragon said:

I am not the one pretending that AM passing a single Focus token is somehow making ships invulnerable to stress. Saying "stress still causes issues for AM lists", the crux of my post, is true. A stressed ship is still limited.

Gyroscopic Targetting allowing Assajj to move her mobile arc during the end phase does not help if she needs to stress a ship during her combat phase to activate Latts. Being stressed ALSO means that Assajj is unable to take the evade action.

Pretending that Fenn does not often need to boost or barrell roll, just "be in R1" is just being dishonest, especially when you are giving him 5 dice (presumably R3 unless you're presupposing an obstacle without saying) AND somehow giving him CDP.

I am not saying those upgrades will make the match an auto-win. I am saying that ignoring an action-denying mechanic while complaining about an action dependant list is being short sighted.

Apologies about my Fenn statement, I can see how that is confusing. 5 Dice + Focus ****-punch attack at range 1 is what people want Fenn for. CDP and AT are about his defense (covers all except a rang 2 in arc gap).

Assajj can move the arc though when stressed with Gyro. Predictive flying has always been a part of the game. Now, whether or not Gyro is worth it over other modifications is another debate. Latts offsets the Stress preventing Evade actions.

People aren't saying that "everyone knows that Attanni Mindlink gives you special powers to ignore stress entirely" which is the Strawman you are building up to wack at. Stress of course adds some limitations, however they are limitations that are repeatedly being avoided by more and more S&V cards such as Attanni, Manaroo, Latts, Aggromech, and such.

13 minutes ago, kris40k said:

Apologies about my Fenn statement, I can see how that is confusing. 5 Dice + Focus ****-punch attack at range 1 is what people want Fenn for. CDP and AT are about his defense (covers all except a rang 2 in arc gap).

Assajj can move the arc though when stressed with Gyro. Predictive flying has always been a part of the game. Now, whether or not Gyro is worth it over other modifications is another debate. Latts offsets the Stress preventing Evade actions.

People aren't saying that "everyone knows that Attanni Mindlink gives you special powers to ignore stress entirely" which is the Strawman you are building up to wack at. Stress of course adds some limitations, however they are limitations that are repeatedly being avoided by more and more S&V cards such as Attanni, Manaroo, Latts, Aggromech, and such.

You talk about gyro targeting as if it's...actually used. The list people are complaining about most for mindlink seems to be parattanni, which doesn't have gyro targeting. If asajj is stressed, she can't move her arc. And latts doesn't offset losing the evade action, because the whole idea is that she wants BOTH, not one or the other. Last time I played against a mindlink list with stress control (they had SD/HLC serissu instead of asajj, and some extra upgrades on manaroo), I beat it 100-0.

3 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

You talk about gyro targeting as if it's...actually used. The list people are complaining about most for mindlink seems to be parattanni, which doesn't have gyro targeting. If asajj is stressed, she can't move her arc. And latts doesn't offset losing the evade action, because the whole idea is that she wants BOTH, not one or the other. Last time I played against a mindlink list with stress control (they had SD/HLC serissu instead of asajj, and some extra upgrades on manaroo), I beat it 100-0.

As I said already, whether or not Gyro is worth it over other choices is another debate. That a Caster can move it when stressed if the player wants the capability is not debatable.

If you really want to argue that 2 Evade dice + 1 Evade Result + 1 Evade Token on a large ship is what is fair in a thread where others are bitching about S&V being overpowered, feel free. I'm not going to stop you.

If you look back in the forums, you'll see many people that used to poo-poo Attanni due to stress being refuted by Attanni evangelists. People that fly Attanni know how to get around it.

Just now, kris40k said:

As I said already, whether or not Gyro is worth it over other choices is another debate. That a Caster can move it when stressed if the player wants the capability is not debatable.

If you really want to argue that 2 Evade dice + 1 Evade Result + 1 Evade Token on a large ship is what is fair in a thread where others are bitching about S&V being overpowered, feel free. I'm not going to stop you.

If you look back in the forums, you'll see many people that used to poo-poo Attanni due to stress being refuted by Attanni evangelists. People that fly Attanni know how to get around it.

I've literally never seen anyone fly Gyro over Latts. it doesnt matter if it's "worth it" if no one uses it. And without latts asajj will melt way faster.

Attanni players can "get around" stress, and it doesn't entirelys hut down the list, but it DOES hurt them and make it easier to predict what they're doing and/or reduce the number of tokens they get.

8 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

I've literally never seen anyone fly Gyro over Latts. it doesnt matter if it's "worth it" if no one uses it. And without latts asajj will melt way faster.

Attanni players can "get around" stress, and it doesn't entirelys hut down the list, but it DOES hurt them and make it easier to predict what they're doing and/or reduce the number of tokens they get.

Who said Gyro over Latts?

Edit: You are talking about Parattanni, the rest of the thread is talking about Attanni, and S&V as a whole.

1 hour ago, Clancampbell said:

1) Yes we can reject the OP's question. 2) X-wing needs fixing, badly.

"X-Wing needs fixing" is simply not a statement supported by evidence.

23 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

I've literally never seen anyone fly Gyro over Latts. it doesnt matter if it's "worth it" if no one uses it. And without latts asajj will melt way faster.

Attanni players can "get around" stress, and it doesn't entirelys hut down the list, but it DOES hurt them and make it easier to predict what they're doing and/or reduce the number of tokens they get.

While not with Parattanni, I regularly use Gyro on Lancers. I've flown Assajj and Sabine quite a bit and found the Gyro to be invaluable on them. It's especially fun when you can psych someone out by using the Gyro to indicate one direction of movement, then go the other way.

Let's ask Armada players how the two faction only is working out for them.

Okay, to be fair, I think the three faction is fine. It provides enough variety without having high and low power factions (like Blood Bowl). Take a look at Starcraft. Now do you think it would be as popular as it is without the protos? Just have it be Humans vs Bugs TvZ. Sure you got the mirror matches such as TvT and ZvZ but those tend to be the least interesting matches IMHO and if every race was distributed evenly and balanced out at least 50% will be the mirror.

Speaking of which if you don't enjoy the Scum faction. SELL YOUR COLLECTION AND GO PLAY ARMADA. It's a good game and they need more players. I would have too if it weren't for the fact I actually like X-wing to include the sucm faction and don't want to sell my collection. I am still trying to plan on how to get to it but finances and life hasn't been very cooperative right now. Not broke or in debt, just not making any money.

17 minutes ago, Achowat said:

"X-Wing needs fixing" is simply not a statement supported by evidence.

Alright, then where is your evidence that it doesn't need fixing? Look around these boards, there are many, many threads talking about the imbalances in the game. The action economy of the dengaroo or parrattani lists border on broken, and you think this game doesn't need to be fixed? What game are you playing?

Getting rid of Scum is obviously a completely ridiculous overreaction, but the Jumpmaster is probably the biggest mistake the game has made since the the TIE Phantom.

Just now, Clancampbell said:

Alright, then where is your evidence that it doesn't need fixing? Look around these boards, there are many, many threads talking about the imbalances in the game. The action economy of the dengaroo or parrattani lists border on broken, and you think this game doesn't need to be fixed? What game are you playing?

1. I can't prove a universal negative.

2. As the one making the positive claim, the burden of proof lies with you.

3. I'm playing the world's most popular tabletop miniatures game.

4. Have you read some of these threads about inbalances? This game could be 8 TIEs vs 8 Z-95s and this board would find something to complain about.

11 hours ago, Vitalis said:

I got a headache - hey lets cut a head it will stop hurting...

Sadly, I've had headaches before where I was starting to think of that as a legitimate solution.

Which just goes to show how bad my head hurt and how terrible it made my thinking!

1 minute ago, Achowat said:

1. I can't prove a universal negative.

2. As the one making the positive claim, the burden of proof lies with you.

3. I'm playing the world's most popular tabletop miniatures game.

4. Have you read some of these threads about inbalances? This game could be 8 TIEs vs 8 Z-95s and this board would find something to complain about.

1. What does that even mean?

2. How about no. Even though you are making the positive claim, you still have to prove your statement to be true.

3. This is an opinion. There is no proff that it's the world's most popular miniatures game.

4. True, however, that does not invalidate all the complaints.

31 minutes ago, Achowat said:

"X-Wing needs fixing" is simply not a statement supported by evidence.

? Good one. I actually laughed out loud (or as the kids no longer say LOL'd).

8 minutes ago, Clancampbell said:

Alright, then where is your evidence that it doesn't need fixing? Look around these boards, there are many, many threads talking about the imbalances in the game. The action economy of the dengaroo or parrattani lists border on broken, and you think this game doesn't need to be fixed? What game are you playing?

Achowat makes some good points. Particularly number 4. So many of the discussions on this forum argue over matters of opinion rather then fact. If you nerf something, someone using it in a different way that wasn't contriversal is gonna get made (Example; after the Agromech was altered to try and power down the U-Boats, I saw quite a few complaints that their Kavil with Blaster Turret and Agromech was gone). Plus, with some of the controversial cards being a matter of opinion, the people who thought the card was fine will complain.

And finally, after living through some of the early waves, I can tell you there has been balance problems before the current contenders which lead to worse list diversity then today. While I agree Parattanni is a little concerning, I have confidence that some good players will find ways to combat it. And if that fails, then we can see about a FAQ. Trust me, things go in cycles. Parattanni will have it's time in the sun, then get pushed down by another list like so many have before it. No game is perfect. And, currently, X-Wing has exceptible level of problems.

1 minute ago, SabineKey said:

And finally, after living through some of the early waves, I can tell you there has been balance problems before the current contenders which lead to worse list diversity then today. While I agree Parattanni is a little concerning, I have confidence that some good players will find ways to combat it. And if that fails, then we can see about a FAQ. Trust me, things go in cycles. Parattanni will have it's time in the sun, then get pushed down by another list like so many have before it. No game is perfect. And, currently, X-Wing has exceptible level of problems.

I totally and completely agree. Things are actually really good in X-wing right now. Quit complaining, and find a buddy to fly Parattani so you can practice against it. You don't have to play a whole match if you don't want. Practice set up and opening engagement, tweak and refine your list, switch sides so they can practice against Parattani. That's how the community can help; not posting complaints on the Internet.

23 minutes ago, Clancampbell said:

1. What does that even mean?

2. How about no. Even though you are making the positive claim, you still have to prove your statement to be true.

3. This is an opinion. There is no proff that it's the world's most popular miniatures game.

4. True, however, that does not invalidate all the complaints.

1. It is impossible to prove that something is universally false. It can't be proven that there are no flying zebras in exactly the same way it can't be proven that X-Wing doesn't need saving.

2. How about yes. I can demonstrate that the game does not need "saving" simply by refuting the positive points. Because that's how burden of proof works. If you want to change the status quo, you need to give a good reason for it.

3. Most active fan forum. Most active social media presence. Most number of high quality podcasts. Staggeringly successful regional, national, continental, and world tournaments. This is not an opinion, it is a matter of fact.

4. But nor can simply the number of complaint threads be used as evidence for the game needing to be saved. Refer to point 2.

20 minutes ago, Achowat said:

1. It is impossible to prove that something is universally false. It can't be proven that there are no flying zebras in exactly the same way it can't be proven that X-Wing doesn't need saving.

2. How about yes. I can demonstrate that the game does not need "saving" simply by refuting the positive points. Because that's how burden of proof works. If you want to change the status quo, you need to give a good reason for it.

3. Most active fan forum. Most active social media presence. Most number of high quality podcasts. Staggeringly successful regional, national, continental, and world tournaments. This is not an opinion, it is a matter of fact.

4. But nor can simply the number of complaint threads be used as evidence for the game needing to be saved. Refer to point 2.

Wow dude, are you a lawyer?

1. Again, saying something doesn't make it true. To say that x-wing doesn't need saving is not a statement that is universally accepted. Sorry, it's not. Usage of big words, universal definitions, or sun-tzu quotes isn't going to change that. To say that there is nothing wrong with x-wing is a matter of opinion.

Dude, I'm done here. If you can't see that are some serious holes in the game then no amount of 'evidence" is going to sway you from your opinion. I'm glad you are happy with the game the way it is. I am not. Let's just leave it at that.

Side note I believe it can be factually proven to be the best selling miniature game. If I'm remembering correctly it unseated 40k in some industry document discussing mini games sales.

1 hour ago, SabineKey said:

While not with Parattanni, I regularly use Gyro on Lancers. I've flown Assajj and Sabine quite a bit and found the Gyro to be invaluable on them. It's especially fun when you can psych someone out by using the Gyro to indicate one direction of movement, then go the other way.

Out of curiosity, how many non-parrattanni builds are out there with mindlink and gyro targetting on asajj (and not latts). I have no problem with gyro on asajj in general, it's a useful mod, but it only applies to this conversation if you have gyro targetting AND mindlink.

1 minute ago, Clancampbell said:

Wow dude, are you a lawyer?

1. Again, saying something doesn't make it true. To say that x-wing doesn't need saving is not a statement that is universally accepted. Sorry, it's not. Usage of big words, universal definitions, or sun-tzu quotes isn't going to change that. To say that there is nothing wrong with x-wing is a matter of opinion.

Dude, I'm done here. If you can't see that are some serious holes in the game then no amount of 'evidence" is going to sway you from your opinion. I'm glad you are happy with the game the way it is. I am not. Let's just leave it at that.

Don't you love living in a post-facts world? If you think evidence exists that the game needs to be saved, feel free to present it. You tried once, and that evidence was refuted. You can try again.

What you can't do is say "There is evidence; I'm not going to show it but it exists." And then be upset that people don't find your Secret Evidence convincing.

18 minutes ago, Achowat said:

Don't you love living in a post-facts world? If you think evidence exists that the game needs to be saved, feel free to present it. You tried once, and that evidence was refuted. You can try again.

What you can't do is say "There is evidence; I'm not going to show it but it exists." And then be upset that people don't find your Secret Evidence convincing.

I never claimed to have "secret" evidence. On the other hand, your proof that the game is fine, is simply saying that's the positive statement. so I don't need to prove it. Which, frankly, is asinine.

Global warming is good! There I don't have to prove it, because I made a positive statement.

There is power creep in the game.

Power creep is not good.

The game needs to be addressed to fix the power creep.

Re Scum: the mechanics of the faction is laden with NPE features that appeal to some players. They don't really appeal to me. Scum characters had very minor roles in the movies and frankly I wouldn't mind it they all went off to Mos Eisley and never came back.