I agree that using a minimum vehicle speed of 1 should be required for taking vehicular maneuvers. That's why I use the Accelerate Maneuver for take off and Decelerate for landing. Landing with a vehicle speed of 1+ is crashing IMO. I also allow the Accelerate Maneuver to take off to move them anywhere within medium range. If they start their turn already moving at speed 1 then they can move anywhere within long range. Speed 2+ anywhere within extreme range. (If they use two maneuvers to take off and accelerate to speed 2 they can move anywhere within long range that turn, and use a single maneuver to move anywhere within extreme range the next turn).

So to hover with a jet pack a character would have to use a maneuver to accelerate to 1 and another maneuver to decelerate to 0 (without landing). Which works well to me for simulating the effort needed to use the jet pack without hobbling the character for a round (they can still take off, cover major personal scale distance, and attack in the same round). Going to hover in a single round would also expend the very limited system strain of the jet pack which is also fine with me.

However I'm still inclined to allow the use of Dodge, Side Step, etc while hovering or flying just for the sake of simplicity and because defense would be so important if they are engaging a vehicle with vehicle scale weapons. (but not stacking personal scale defenses with vehicle maneuvers that simulate the same thing like Evasive Maneuvers). So I would not apply Defensive Driving if they're hovering, but would apply it at Speed 1 and allow it to stack with defense from their armor or deflection weapons, etc.

I would also allow terrain modifiers (+2 setback for flying between complex buildings etc) to be added to defense if they're taking Evasive Maneuvers and being attacked by a vehicle. Helps with survivability and simulates trying to hit a really small target with a lot of intervening obstructions/cover.

42 minutes ago, FinarinPanjoro said:

I agree that using a minimum vehicle speed of 1 should be required for taking vehicular maneuvers. That's why I use the Accelerate Maneuver for take off and Decelerate for landing. Landing with a vehicle speed of 1+ is crashing IMO. I also allow the Accelerate Maneuver to take off to move them anywhere within medium range . If they start their turn already moving at speed 1 then they can move anywhere within long range. Speed 2+ anywhere within extreme range. (If they use two maneuvers to take off and accelerate to speed 2 they can move anywhere within long range that turn, and use a single maneuver to move anywhere within extreme range the next turn).

So to hover with a jet pack a character would have to use a maneuver to accelerate to 1 and another maneuver to decelerate to 0 (without landing). Which works well to me for simulating the effort needed to use the jet pack without hobbling the character for a round (they can still take off, cover major personal scale distance, and attack in the same round). Going to hover in a single round would also expend the very limited system strain of the jet pack which is also fine with me.

However I'm still inclined to allow the use of Dodge, Side Step, etc while hovering or flying just for the sake of simplicity and because defense would be so important if they are engaging a vehicle with vehicle scale weapons. (but not stacking personal scale defenses with vehicle maneuvers that simulate the same thing like Evasive Maneuvers). So I would not apply Defensive Driving if they're hovering, but would apply it at Speed 1 and allow it to stack with defense from their armor or deflection weapons, etc.

I would also allow terrain modifiers (+2 setback for flying between complex buildings etc) to be added to defense if they're taking Evasive Maneuvers and being attacked by a vehicle. Helps with survivability and simulates trying to hit a really small target with a lot of intervening obstructions/cover.

From personal experience, I would not allow this, speed 1 allows you to move anyway within personal scale already with a single maneuver, so I would not allow a player to get a medium range movement + accelerate for a single maneuver. Those high-speed moves without inertia dampers are thematic imo totally fine to consume strain like candy. Nearly all pilots specs have anyway tons of grit in their trees, so burning 2 strain to move to any point within extreme range in a single turn and even above extreme range (without slowing down, so basically circling in the general area and personal scale range band) is already very handy, paying with strain on the jetpack and the pilot is very appropriate to limit this highspeed trick usually to once per encounter.

For hovering, we have examples for this with flying and hovering creates and iirc in one adventure module as well. When hovering you move with personal scale, pay as normal in personal scale with maneuvers for movement and are able to ignore difficult terrain from ground obstacles. Page 202 in E-CRB has a grey box covering hovering and flying on speeds less than vehicle scales. Basically at sub vehicle speeds normal personal scale talents and maneuvers apply, and I would not add anything to that.

The jetpack on p. 181 of EotE core is a piece of equipment which allows the character "to function as a Silhouette 1, Speed 2, Handling 0, System Strain Threshold 3 vehicle" in its description.

This topic centers entirely around how you interpret the phrase "function as" from the description. If you interpret "function as" to be "it is not this thing but it is acting like it is" (ex: The library may function as a temporary hospital after a disaster.) then the jetpack user cannot use talents which specify vehicles in their long descriptions because they are simply using a piece of equipment (and are not actually piloting a vehicle). If you interpret "function as" to mean "counts as" or "becomes" then the character should be allowed to use the vehicle talents. This is the decision a GM needs to make and once made everything else falls in to place, cut and dry.

As far as this thread goes, the relevant talents (from Pilot, Driver, and Hotshot) affected by this decision are Brilliant Evasion, Defensive Driving*, Fine Tuning, Full Throttle, Tricky Target, All-Terrain Driver, Full Stop, Master Driver, Corellian Sendoff, High-G Training, Koiogran Turn, and Showboat because they specify "vehicle" in their long descriptions. Meanwhile, Skilled Jockey and Natural Driver always apply since these talents only specify Piloting (Planetary). Personal scale talents (Dodge, Side Step, etc) should be the opposite of the vehicle talents (since if you're counting the jetpack as a vehicle then it follows they are no longer personal).

Personally, I take the former stance and when using a jetpack a character is not actually a vehicle and is only allowed to interact with vehicle concepts because of the equipment's special rule. Compare to the Imperial Sky Swooper on Strongholds of Resistance p. 116. This is of similar use to the jet pack but it's listed as an airspeeder, not a piece of equipment, so it's literally a Silhouette 1 vehicle (no ambiguity). Balance wise, the main benefit of the jetpack (IMO) is its versatility and mobility. The player gets to have instant access to vehicle speed movement at the price of only 2 encumbrance. Meanwhile, speeder bikes/gliders/whatever aren't usually instantly available, but in exchange pilots can use their talents on them. Allowing pilots to get to use all their talents on what is, at the end of the day, a piece of equipment just seems excessive.

Moving on, the phrase "function as" is primarily there (IMO) to allow a jetpack user to take starship/vehicle maneuvers in spite of not being a vehicle. Vehicle movement is pretty self explanatory, with some good discussion here and here , but the punch line is don't forget changing speed, moving, and going from Short to Engaged are all separate maneuvers.

That does it for my general thoughts on jetpacks. Since it seems you take "function as" to mean "becomes" I'll answer the specifics from that perspective (i.e. jetpacks are vehicles).

Defensive Driving: Yes, a character shooting at a vehicle includes the Defense of the vehicle as setback dice in the dice pool (doesn't matter if the attacker is on the ground or in a vehicle themselves).

Brilliant Evasion: The talent specifies one opponent but affects their vehicle/starship, so anyone in that vehicle/starship can shoot any weapon not part of the vehicle/starship freely.

Master Driver: The text explicitly states "any action" which would include attacking.

Vehicle Actions: Yes, all actions are available to all vehicles which meet their criteria.

Evasive Maneuvers/Stay on Target: Both of these state they require a speed 3 vehicle, and since the jetpack is only 2 they cannot be performed by the jetpack (even with Full Throttle, see full description). That being said, if a Speed 3 vehicle did do either/both of these actions, then simply follow the rules; any attacks coming or going from the vehicle have their difficulties/abilities upgraded (it'd make no difference if the vehicle doing it was a jetpack or a speeder bike).

Takeoff/Landing: I agree with your thoughts, it doesn't need to be more complex than that.

*= Interestingly, the Defensive Driving talent shouldn't increase a starship's defense since the full text of the talent (which always overrides the tree's box) only specifies vehicles. I assume this is in need of a correction, but all the other talents explicitly separate vehicles and starships in their wording so it could be intentional.

Actually, on the topic of jetpacks, is there anything that tells us how long one lasts, in terms of fuel? My initial assumption was 1 rnd per Strain, giving a standard jetpack about 3 rounds worth of fuel. But the rocket boots in "No Disintegrations" have exactly this as well, and the fluff describes them as having much more limited range than a jetpack. In Star Wars: Rebels we see jetpack users basically zooming around constantly, and I can't remember any of them running out of fuel. There is also the fact that the jetpack fluff describes some having an anti-grav assist, but there is nothing about the effects of this. I was wondering about the following (for jetpacks)

Standard Jetpack: carries enough fuel to use as-needed for one encounter. A Despair generated on a piloting check means it runs out of fuel.

Anti-Grav Assisted Jetpack: carries enough fuel to use as-needed for one encounter, and increases the carry-capacity of the user by 6 Encumbrance. A Despair also means running out of fuel.

Thoughts?

2 hours ago, Daronil said:

Actually, on the topic of jetpacks, is there anything that tells us how long one lasts, in terms of fuel?

The fluff specifically calls out limited fuel as being a drawback of a jet pack, yet there is not mechanical reflection of this. Thankfully, the one jetpack user in my game is pretty self-limiting and has never been abusive of it.

SEApocalypse,

I see where you're coming from on that, but it's unclear to me how it should work and this makes sense to me. I've never seen Iron Man or a jet pack user in Rebels take off and not simultaneously move some distance. So as an abstraction this works for me (or has so far).

Note that I would not let them take off and land without using two maneuvers (Accelerate and Decelerate) which would only let them move to Medium Range. The same as if they just ran there themselves using 2 maneuvers (but might let them cross a chasm or difficult terrain etc very quickly).

Hinklemar, I agree it all hinges on that first interpretation. I go with functions as means: treat the character and jet pack as though they are a vehicle. I don't have a problem with this because if someone invests that much into piloting then they should be able to do some pretty amazing things and this lets them do some fun, but not IMO game breaking things, when they aren't in a ship. Which means the other, non-pilot, PCs are already on a better footing than the pilot since all of them are on their home turf as opposed to being relegated to gunners and mechanics like they are on a typical EotE PC freighter style starship.

The jetpack as vehicle gives the pilot a chance to do some more cool stuff when they're not aboard ship (which is sometimes less fun for the non-pilots), but only in limited scenarios (when they have enough room to maneuver and open space to take advantage of their high speed).

It also increases the opportunity to use jet pack versus vehicle, even starfighter, chases by making it more survivable. So it sets up some great scenes such as a jet pack wearing pilot dodging through the urban jungle of Nar Shaddaa pursued by a TIE fighter. The TIE fighter has to upgrade its checks due to silhouette significantly more than the jet pack user during the chase and the jet pack can go places the TIE can't (more setback dice due to terrain for the fighter than for the jet pack). The jet pack can win the encounter by escaping or getting the TIE to crash and so on.

That just sounds fun to me!

I point you all toward the new trailer for Guardians of the Galaxy, to see what a pilot with jet pack looks like.

it's fun...

Err on the side of the character - if they have a ton of exp invested in making themselves bad ass, then they should be allowed to be bad ass in that way.