4 hours ago, MalusCalibur said:

Spoken truly like someone who has clearly never put any time into flying Defenders themselves. Flying three of them and getting all of them pointing at the right target at the right time with the right modifications is a **** sight more of a 'puzzle' than removing a decision from your opponent with Biggs' clunky, dull and potentially breakable ability.

The Defender is categorically not easy to fly well , and as someone who has flown them since I started the game back in Wave 5, I resent the idea that all the practice and time I've put into them can be so easily disregarded just because /x7 puts them where they need to be for their cost. You try just 'doing k-turns for days' and any halfway competent player will take you to pieces.

There are countless tools in the game for dealing with or sidestepping tokens, and a single evade on its own will not stand up to concentrated fire. Like so many other big threats in the game, simple blocking and focused fire still hurts them - and Defenders are easier to block than most, given how predictable their most effective moves can be. That's not even beginning to cover tractor beams, stress control, bombs, token removing/stealing abilities...

Please stop suggesting that the 'fix' should be 'unfixed', and certainly stop trying to spread the misinformation that Defenders are somehow 'easy mode'.

As for the topic at hand, I'd eat my hat if we don't see a R1-themed X-Wing aces box after the Starviper/Kihraxz Scum one, which with any luck might finally help out some of those ships in need (new Astromechs would be the way to do it, IMO), but Rebels still have a lot of effective tools - it's just that regen is easier to deal with now and Poe (previously one of their cornerstone pilots) has been all but hard-countered by HSCP.

There's also undoubtably a degree of netlisting and 'monkey see, monkey do' with regards to the recent crop of Mindlinked Fenn+friends, since it's far easier to copy a list that you know works rather than spend the time building one of your own.

Woah, calm down, it's a plastic toy. I actually have flown them quite a bit and have multiple lists that include Ryad, Vessery and Steele. The list I am flying at a tournament this weekend will include one. I think they are cool and fit my style of play but you can't deny -2 points for a free evade is slightly off. I think 0 points would of still made them pop back into the meta the way they did. So, take a breath, and relax. Again, toys.

1 hour ago, gamblertuba said:

I think we are approaching the point where FFG would be best served by just removing Biggs from the game (as we know him at least) and simultaneously releasing some goodies to bring the Rebels OT/OG ships up to the current power level. Biggs sucks to play against. Always has. His presence is a huge design limitation for Rebels. The 'stache just ain't worth it anymore. Release a new card with some sort of super draw their fire effect and ban the original Biggs. I think it's time.

I use Biggs because he's currently needed. However, his ability should have been something along the lines of: "When a friendly ship within range 1 of you is hit by an attack, you may roll the appropriate number of green dice (ie 2 + any bonus) to intercept and suffer an amount of the damage dealt equal to your final number of evade results"

So his 'getting in the way and taking the hits' isn't automatic and is tricky to control. Plus a second (and subsequent) attack will be harder to intercept because Biggs will run out of focus tokens.

I agree that Biggs limits the Rebels but I don't see them changing it at this point. They nerfed him slightly but not much.

1 hour ago, migs6000 said:

Woah, calm down, it's a plastic toy. I actually have flown them quite a bit and have multiple lists that include Ryad, Vessery and Steele. The list I am flying at a tournament this weekend will include one. I think they are cool and fit my style of play but you can't deny -2 points for a free evade is slightly off. I think 0 points would of still made them pop back into the meta the way they did. So, take a breath, and relax. Again, toys.

Actually, denying that -2 cost is off is realtively easy. Compare x7 with chaardon refit. The refit does away with the missle slot on an a-wing for -2 points. X7 does that and losses the cannon slot and requires a specific type of flying to get the free evade. Plus x7 takes up the title slot while refit takes up the slot it is doing away with. When you account for pure slot and maneuver opportunity cost, -2 makes sense.

2 hours ago, migs6000 said:

Woah, calm down, it's a plastic toy. I actually have flown them quite a bit and have multiple lists that include Ryad, Vessery and Steele. The list I am flying at a tournament this weekend will include one. I think they are cool and fit my style of play but you can't deny -2 points for a free evade is slightly off. I think 0 points would of still made them pop back into the meta the way they did. So, take a breath, and relax. Again, toys.

Your condescending attitude is not appreciated. I am entirely calm, I merely refuse to allow this kind of nonsense to get said without rebuke. Yes, I argue that there is nothing 'off' about the /x7 title - people seem to forget that as little as 2 points and an evade seperate the current Defender from a joke ship that you never saw in any kind of serious play, and so tampering with the x7 title again could quite easily put it straight back there, with how cut-throat the game has become with regards to efficiency, and I have every belief that FFG will not do it - there is no evidence to support any claim that x7 Defenders have a damaging effect on the game remotely comparable.to the occasions where they have stepped in.

Whether folk want to admit it or not, the Defender dial is an oddity not like most other ships and it takes time to get the hang of using it - suggesting it is easy to fly them and that it takes no skill to win with them is utter rot and I'll not stand idly by while misinformation about the game is spread - we get enough of that 'internet wisdom' already.

1 hour ago, SabineKey said:

Actually, denying that -2 cost is off is realtively easy. Compare x7 with chaardon refit. The refit does away with the missle slot on an a-wing for -2 points. X7 does that and losses the cannon slot and requires a specific type of flying to get the free evade. Plus x7 takes up the title slot while refit takes up the slot it is doing away with. When you account for pure slot and maneuver opportunity cost, -2 makes sense.

I agree that in comparison to the A-wings Refit the -2 seems fair but I don't like that it takes defenders low enough that they push out other imperial ships. Why spend 35 points on an interceptor ace when you can get Ryad or Vessery for the same cost and they live twice as long.

3 minutes ago, MalusCalibur said:

Your condescending attitude is not appreciated. I am entirely calm, I merely refuse to allow this kind of nonsense to get said without rebuke. Yes, I argue that there is nothing 'off' about the /x7 title - people seem to forget that as little as 2 points and an evade seperate the current Defender from a joke ship that you never saw in any kind of serious play, and so tampering with the x7 title again could quite easily put it straight back there, with how cut-throat the game has become with regards to efficiency, and I have every belief that FFG will not do it - there is no evidence to support any claim that x7 Defenders have a damaging effect on the game remotely comparable.to the occasions where they have stepped in.

Whether folk want to admit it or not, the Defender dial is an oddity not like most other ships and it takes time to get the hang of using it - suggesting it is easy to fly them and that it takes no skill to win with them is utter rot and I'll not stand idly by while misinformation about the game is spread - we get enough of that 'internet wisdom' already.

I would like to offer the opposing opinion that Defenders are easy to fly. With the x7 title, they are a forgiving ship I would suggest for first timers.

That said, flying them well is more difficult. The whole "k-turn to victory" isn't gonna work against an experienced opponent and there have been several times in my personal play experience with x7s where the right move was to ignore the free evade and do the unexpected 1 bank, leaving me out of arc of my opponent's gun and allowing me to take a shot. (I'm sure you know this kind of thinking, I'm just adding it for the benefit of others.)

I don't wanna seem to be attacking your position. I agree with you. I just want to clamp down on a loop hole against your point before someone else went for it.

19 minutes ago, MenaceNsobriety said:

I agree that in comparison to the A-wings Refit the -2 seems fair but I don't like that it takes defenders low enough that they push out other imperial ships. Why spend 35 points on an interceptor ace when you can get Ryad or Vessery for the same cost and they live twice as long.

Okay, I have two ways to address this point.

1st: Play style. While the Defender is a strong ship, it's not an ace ship. It can't do the kind of maneuvering an Intercepter or a TAP can. The primary Imperial players I know prefer the ace play style, but have been reluctant to use them because of point two.

2nd: I believed the increasing number of auto damage tricks (k-wings with Sabine, auto Turret Ghosts) and anti-green dice/token effects (Zuckess, 4-Lom, homing missle) did more to shut out tradition Imp Aces than Defenders. All of those were out before Imp Vets and just waiting to be sprung on the Imp Aces ships, which had long been vilified by a vocal minority. Imperial players, regardless of the style they which to fly, turned to Defenders because they were dependable and could survive these new tricks.

In the end, I won't say the Defender is blameless in the reduction of ships like the Interceptor, but far more blame is on the anti-ace tech that was out even before x7s.

14 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Okay, I have two ways to address this point.

1st: Play style. While the Defender is a strong ship, it's not an ace ship. It can't do the kind of maneuvering an Intercepter or a TAP can. The primary Imperial players I know prefer the ace play style, but have been reluctant to use them because of point two.

2nd: I believed the increasing number of auto damage tricks (k-wings with Sabine, auto Turret Ghosts) and anti-green dice/token effects (Zuckess, 4-Lom, homing missle) did more to shut out tradition Imp Aces than Defenders. All of those were out before Imp Vets and just waiting to be sprung on the Imp Aces ships, which had long been vilified by a vocal minority. Imperial players, regardless of the style they which to fly, turned to Defenders because they were dependable and could survive these new tricks.

In the end, I won't say the Defender is blameless in the reduction of ships like the Interceptor, but far more blame is on the anti-ace tech that was out even before x7s.

I mostly agree with you on this as well. The only thing I would add is if the points reduction had not happened then the Aces would still see some use after adjusting their tactics and lists. As it is now they switched to defenders because they are not as vulnerable to said tricks and are roughly the same point cost. I personally would much rather play with and against the Ace ships than Defenders. The Aces take considerable skill to use effectively while Defenders are more forgiving. I don't believe Defenders are simple to fly well but they are definitely easier than one mistake and die Aces.

25 minutes ago, MenaceNsobriety said:

I mostly agree with you on this as well. The only thing I would add is if the points reduction had not happened then the Aces would still see some use after adjusting their tactics and lists. As it is now they switched to defenders because they are not as vulnerable to said tricks and are roughly the same point cost. I personally would much rather play with and against the Ace ships than Defenders. The Aces take considerable skill to use effectively while Defenders are more forgiving. I don't believe Defenders are simple to fly well but they are definitely easier than one mistake and die Aces.

I'll admit, the cost reduction of x7 does make the Defender's replacement of traditional Aces easier, though I still think it would have happened, even with the four extra points. Like I said, the Defender isn't blameless in the plight of Aces. But, at this point, it's what the Imps have that's dependable. And the impromptu math of card opportunity costs checks out.

On the bright side, there will always be some dedicated players who will try to find a way to use old favorites.

1 hour ago, SabineKey said:

I would like to offer the opposing opinion that Defenders are easy to fly. With the x7 title, they are a forgiving ship I would suggest for first timers.

That said, flying them well is more difficult. The whole "k-turn to victory" isn't gonna work against an experienced opponent and there have been several times in my personal play experience with x7s where the right move was to ignore the free evade and do the unexpected 1 bank, leaving me out of arc of my opponent's gun and allowing me to take a shot. (I'm sure you know this kind of thinking, I'm just adding it for the benefit of others.)

I don't wanna seem to be attacking your position. I agree with you. I just want to clamp down on a loop hole against your point before someone else went for it.

That's always what I try to stress - yes, the x7 can be forgiving of mistakes and so is 'easy' to fly in that regard, but to get consistent success with them and combat all the things that can sidestep or negate their advantages is much harder, and as has been pointed out, Defenders are fast but not very nimble in the same way an Advanced Prototype or Interceptor is, so keeping guns on target and/or evading enemy arcs/blocks is often a lot more difficult than 'k-turn-ing to victory', as you say.

I attribute a lot more of my success with Defenders to the time I've spent flying them (both before and after Veterans) than to what x7 has done for them, especially now that countering x7's is so often a factor in tournament list building, and that there are so many ways to do so.

31 minutes ago, MalusCalibur said:

That's always what I try to stress - yes, the x7 can be forgiving of mistakes and so is 'easy' to fly in that regard, but to get consistent success with them and combat all the things that can sidestep or negate their advantages is much harder, and as has been pointed out, Defenders are fast but not very nimble in the same way an Advanced Prototype or Interceptor is, so keeping guns on target and/or evading enemy arcs/blocks is often a lot more difficult than 'k-turn-ing to victory', as you say.

I attribute a lot more of my success with Defenders to the time I've spent flying them (both before and after Veterans) than to what x7 has done for them, especially now that countering x7's is so often a factor in tournament list building, and that there are so many ways to do so.

Well said.

11 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I welcome any evidence from the recent Regional Season or System Open season that anyone can provide which shows, for instance, Braylen+Gunner making any cuts (or even any second days). I don't think it exists, I certainly haven't seen it personally at any events I've attended nor have I seen it in the results from such events I've been able to read and follow.

I flew Gunner Braylen this past weekend in the Vegas regional and made top 16. Our event isn't in list juggler, but I flew it and beat Dengaroo and a few mindlink lists.

13 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Yes, Braylen Gunner Stresshog is BAD. Stresshogs in general are terrible right now, you know why? Because most of the competitive meta doesn't give a rat's arse about stress, so stress-hogs are wasted points (in the case of Braylen Gunner, a LOT of wasted points). Consider:

• Kanan+Biggs: you have to stress Biggs, who doesn't care, and if you're still alive when you can start shooting Kanan it can be tough to get the Gunner attack to trigger and Kanan has Rey and FCS, so will still be getting "3" actions a turn even when stressed out.
• Dash+Miranda: Braylen will have a very hard time having shots at either, and even when he does, both are good at "getting hit" by an attack and not triggering gunner for the double stress. HLCs and TLTs burn Braylen down fast, and he's very predictable for bombing.
• Anything Sum: Dengaroo, Party Bus, Parattani: these lists are literally immune to stress control. Give a ship a thousand stress tokens in the combat phase...it doesn't care and will still easily get two to infinite focus in the combat phase.
• Imp Aces: here is Braylen's one good match-up, as he area-denies action-dependent aces. Still, X7s are a lot less hurt by stress than most jousters (white K-Turn, evade token regardless of stress, potential Palp, Ryad has a suite of greens to destress, etc.). Palp also makes a ship really good at not getting Gunner'ed (turn evade into blank), meaning that it can be hard to get that second stress. If stress hogs came back, traditional aces could easily turn to Inspiring Recruit in non-Palp builds to mitigate a stress hog, but stress hogs are dead right now so no need to bother.

Braylen does not suits into a meta - true. But it does not mean its bad - and you were talking about bad pilots. And he is shut down mostly by Manalink - not his fault again but Manalinks, design where you can double stress a ship and it still ends up with 2 focuses without even doing green is flawed all way around. And I were more thinking about Tactician version not Gunner, but whatever.

13 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I saw some Reys and some ARCs flying around at both, but none were anywhere near the cut.

Study some juggler results. Lots of Rey in the cut, as far i recall even some wins in regionals.

13 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

hese forums are overwhelmed with a lot of noise about what's good and what's bad, with no way to tell the credentials, experience, or intuition of the posters. I'm a competitive player with a decent track record (I'm 6 out of 7 for making the Cut at X-Wing Regionals over the past few years, and my one "miss" was when I threw a super cheesy theme list to have fun after a long season of tourneys), and I'm interested in the competitive viability of stuff, in this case Rebels.

No, your just a meta slave. Most of good lists are born in "Basements" by not listening to guys like you.

13 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I'm not trying to be an arrogant ass

But you made yourself one.

Holy smokes, I thought my little feud was funny. I'm grabbing some popcorn for this one!

2 hours ago, migs6000 said:

Holy smokes, I thought my little feud was funny. I'm grabbing some popcorn for this one!

Sorry to dissapoint you : i dont intend to carry on in this topic just expressed my opinion

14 hours ago, MalusCalibur said:

That's always what I try to stress - yes, the x7 can be forgiving of mistakes and so is 'easy' to fly in that regard

That's what people are saying when they say defenders are "easy mode". They don't rely on synergy. If they're blocked they still have 3 agility dice and usually an evade token. They have 6 health and a 3-die primary. There are very few abilities to consider, so you're only considering maneuvering. Any list needs to be flown well to place high in a competitive environment, but trip defenders can be placed into any new players hands and they'd see a decent amount of success. There isn't a much more "point and shoot" list in the meta, except maybe Kanan/Biggs...but that's more fly and shoot...you don't even have to point for that.

5 hours ago, gennataos said:

That's what people are saying when they say defenders are "easy mode". They don't rely on synergy. If they're blocked they still have 3 agility dice and usually an evade token. They have 6 health and a 3-die primary. There are very few abilities to consider, so you're only considering maneuvering. Any list needs to be flown well to place high in a competitive environment, but trip defenders can be placed into any new players hands and they'd see a decent amount of success. There isn't a much more "point and shoot" list in the meta, except maybe Kanan/Biggs...but that's more fly and shoot...you don't even have to point for that.

And if all you see is a point and shoot team, you don't go beyond being decent with defenders. In my opinion, the maneuvering is the key to the game, not the abilities. Just because maneuvering is the only thing you are considering doesn't make for an "easy mode" list when facing people who have learned to take advantage of it. Low skill floors do not negate high skill ceilings.

Why not make some Rebel base plates for some of the bountyhunter ships?

Misthunter, with Zuckuss and 4-LOM.

Shadowcaster with Ketsu Onyo and Sabine.

Would make sense when you can field Boba Fett for the Empire.

14 hours ago, SabineKey said:

And if all you see is a point and shoot team, you don't go beyond being decent with defenders. In my opinion, the maneuvering is the key to the game, not the abilities. Just because maneuvering is the only thing you are considering doesn't make for an "easy mode" list when facing people who have learned to take advantage of it. Low skill floors do not negate high skill ceilings.

You're saying what I said.

TIL that all of those Rebel ships and pilots that aren't making any consistent showings in large competitive events are still, nevertheless, good because someday somebody might find a list that works with them and surprise us!

Of course, by that ridiculous sense of "good," every single ship and every single card ever printed is "good." But if that's all you mean when you say Wedge is good, well then I can't disagree: Wedge is good. Because I can't prove that no one ever will find some future list in some future meta with some future cards that makes him work.

On 2/27/2017 at 10:52 AM, MalusCalibur said:

Spoken truly like someone who has clearly never put any time into flying Defenders themselves. Flying three of them and getting all of them pointing at the right target at the right time with the right modifications is a **** sight more of a 'puzzle' than removing a decision from your opponent with Biggs' clunky, dull and potentially breakable ability.

The Defender is categorically not easy to fly well , and as someone who has flown them since I started the game back in Wave 5, I resent the idea that all the practice and time I've put into them can be so easily disregarded just because /x7 puts them where they need to be for their cost. You try just 'doing k-turns for days' and any halfway competent player will take you to pieces.

There are countless tools in the game for dealing with or sidestepping tokens, and a single evade on its own will not stand up to concentrated fire. Like so many other big threats in the game, simple blocking and focused fire still hurts them - and Defenders are easier to block than most, given how predictable their most effective moves can be. That's not even beginning to cover tractor beams, stress control, bombs, token removing/stealing abilities...

Please stop suggesting that the 'fix' should be 'unfixed', and certainly stop trying to spread the misinformation that Defenders are somehow 'easy mode'.

2 hours ago, gennataos said:

You're saying what I said.

I don't think so. The impression I got from your post was that you were criticizing triple Defenders for just worrying about maneuvering and that because it's easy to use for beginners, it doesn't require finesse. I disagreed, so replied.

if that was not your intent, then we have a miscommunication.

3 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

I don't think so. The impression I got from your post was that you were criticizing triple Defenders for just worrying about maneuvering and that because it's easy to use for beginners, it doesn't require finesse. I disagreed, so replied.

if that was not your intent, then we have a miscommunication.

It wasn't a criticism. If someone likes their Defenders, they're probably going to infer that and take umbrage. I was just saying that it doesn't take much to be decent with Defenders. Decent may not do for a regional or above, but it certainly can do for local store tournaments. I've seen plenty of sloppy players k-turn their token-stacked defenders to victory.

40 minutes ago, gennataos said:

It wasn't a criticism. If someone likes their Defenders, they're probably going to infer that and take umbrage. I was just saying that it doesn't take much to be decent with Defenders. Decent may not do for a regional or above, but it certainly can do for local store tournaments. I've seen plenty of sloppy players k-turn their token-stacked defenders to victory.

Fair. In which case, I apologize for the misunderstanding.