@AllWingsStandyingBy

i think most of your post is spot on. I do take issue however with your assessment of some of the pilots and the empirical data. I won't go into specifics of who can do this or that because this forum is absolutely packed with people singing the praises of their great new list which uses a U-Wing and has gone 4-0 in games at their local FLGS. It's all white noise now.

I do want to touch on empirical data and competitive lists and play. First if winning a Regional or System Open is your mark then you are correct. It if making top 16 (which I would consider a better indicator of list/ship viability) then the data changes. There is also an important point to make regarding upper level competitive play. It discourages risk. The people who are in serious contention in one of those major tournaments is almost always going to select a list that is a proven winner and tested against the current meta, or a part of the current meta. The nature of top level competition discourages big risk in list-making. And honestly there are few Rebel lists right now that aren't big risk.

With Mirandash, Release the MiJanCracken, Miranda & Corran, I'd say Rebels are looking healthy.

The rebels big trick which was regen, is no longer a crutch you can rely on. Too many 4-5 dice attacks which basically negate any advantage regen gives you. Hard to regen when your ship is blasted away in one round. Now the game has become uber offense or uber defense. If you are somewhere in between then you are in trouble.

11 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

The ARC has quite possibly the worst suite of Pilot Abilities to date found an any ship, with only Norra being even conceivable to fly competitively.

The worst? Really?

You haven't played with/against many ARC-170 builds outside of Norra have you?

I think the rebels are suffering these days. To be honest even the empire suffers a bit when compared to all the scum love. Yes there are those outliers of a rebel list that does well at a local, (including my own list of 3 T-65's that I went 3-1 with this past weekend) but as a whole, it's hard being a rebel these days.

Just be patient, very soon people will learn how to destroy mindlink lists. Then you rebel scum will be back at the top tables while my derpfenders wallow in the middle.

14 minutes ago, Clancampbell said:

I think the rebels are suffering these days. To be honest even the empire suffers a bit when compared to all the scum love. Yes there are those outliers of a rebel list that does well at a local, (including my own list of 3 T-65's that I went 3-1 with this past weekend) but as a whole, it's hard being a rebel these days.

Can you please post your Rebel list? I am always curious about good lists featuring T-65 or T-70s

11 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

The ARC has quite possibly the worst suite of Pilot Abilities to date found an any ship, with only Norra being even conceivable to fly competitively.

Aha...ok carry on. Braylem stresshog is bad right...?

11 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

that HotR fixed the Falcon

Rey may disagree. A lot.

1 hour ago, Jo Jo said:

The rebels big trick which was regen, is no longer a crutch you can rely on. Too many 4-5 dice attacks which basically negate any advantage regen gives you. Hard to regen when your ship is blasted away in one round. Now the game has become uber offense or uber defense. If you are somewhere in between then you are in trouble.

This is pretty much it. The Rebel ships (particularly the X-wings) are supposed to be all-rounders. Unfortunately the way they have been priced means they struggle to compete with cheaper ships that emphasise one particular strength at the expense of others.

Most strong rebel builds rely on newer ships which are more competitively priced although the same is true of Scum and Empire to some extent. The good old Tie swarm seems to have fizzled out only recently as 2-dice attacks just bounce off token stacked defenses like TriFenders and Parattanni.

9 minutes ago, Schu81 said:

Can you please post your Rebel list? I am always curious about good lists featuring T-65 or T-70s

Wedge - Proton torps, integrated astro, r2 unit, crack shot.

Luke - Proton torps, integrated astro, r5-k6, crack shot.

Biggs - Proton torps, integrated astro, r4-d6.

My theory was to have them fly in formation, deliver an alpha strike with crack shot to push the damage through. After that, fly around with their integrated astros keeping them around longer, and keep after the enemy, hopefully having worn them down enough with said alpha strike. It worked reasonably well.

21 hours ago, migs6000 said:

I'm sorry but 3 OP defender x7's require very little skill to be effective. Now fly in formation with Biggs and see how much of a puzzle every turn is. Or fly defenders and do k-turns for days.

Spoken truly like someone who has clearly never put any time into flying Defenders themselves. Flying three of them and getting all of them pointing at the right target at the right time with the right modifications is a **** sight more of a 'puzzle' than removing a decision from your opponent with Biggs' clunky, dull and potentially breakable ability.

The Defender is categorically not easy to fly well , and as someone who has flown them since I started the game back in Wave 5, I resent the idea that all the practice and time I've put into them can be so easily disregarded just because /x7 puts them where they need to be for their cost. You try just 'doing k-turns for days' and any halfway competent player will take you to pieces.

There are countless tools in the game for dealing with or sidestepping tokens, and a single evade on its own will not stand up to concentrated fire. Like so many other big threats in the game, simple blocking and focused fire still hurts them - and Defenders are easier to block than most, given how predictable their most effective moves can be. That's not even beginning to cover tractor beams, stress control, bombs, token removing/stealing abilities...

Please stop suggesting that the 'fix' should be 'unfixed', and certainly stop trying to spread the misinformation that Defenders are somehow 'easy mode'.

As for the topic at hand, I'd eat my hat if we don't see a R1-themed X-Wing aces box after the Starviper/Kihraxz Scum one, which with any luck might finally help out some of those ships in need (new Astromechs would be the way to do it, IMO), but Rebels still have a lot of effective tools - it's just that regen is easier to deal with now and Poe (previously one of their cornerstone pilots) has been all but hard-countered by HSCP.

There's also undoubtably a degree of netlisting and 'monkey see, monkey do' with regards to the recent crop of Mindlinked Fenn+friends, since it's far easier to copy a list that you know works rather than spend the time building one of your own.

48 minutes ago, Vitalis said:

Aha...ok carry on. Braylem stresshog is bad right...?

Rey may disagree. A lot.

I mean, again, I'm not interested in Basement Aces. I'm not trying to be an arrogant ass, but these forums are overwhelmed with a lot of noise about what's good and what's bad, with no way to tell the credentials, experience, or intuition of the posters. I'm a competitive player with a decent track record (I'm 6 out of 7 for making the Cut at X-Wing Regionals over the past few years, and my one "miss" was when I threw a super cheesy theme list to have fun after a long season of tourneys), and I'm interested in the competitive viability of stuff, in this case Rebels. In the past few months I attended two Regionals, each over 100 people. I saw some Reys and some ARCs flying around at both, but none were anywhere near the cut.

Yes, Braylen Gunner Stresshog is BAD. Stresshogs in general are terrible right now, you know why? Because most of the competitive meta doesn't give a rat's arse about stress, so stress-hogs are wasted points (in the case of Braylen Gunner, a LOT of wasted points). Consider:

• Kanan+Biggs: you have to stress Biggs, who doesn't care, and if you're still alive when you can start shooting Kanan it can be tough to get the Gunner attack to trigger and Kanan has Rey and FCS, so will still be getting "3" actions a turn even when stressed out.
• Dash+Miranda: Braylen will have a very hard time having shots at either, and even when he does, both are good at "getting hit" by an attack and not triggering gunner for the double stress. HLCs and TLTs burn Braylen down fast, and he's very predictable for bombing.
• Anything Sum: Dengaroo, Party Bus, Parattani: these lists are literally immune to stress control. Give a ship a thousand stress tokens in the combat phase...it doesn't care and will still easily get two to infinite focus in the combat phase.
• Imp Aces: here is Braylen's one good match-up, as he area-denies action-dependent aces. Still, X7s are a lot less hurt by stress than most jousters (white K-Turn, evade token regardless of stress, potential Palp, Ryad has a suite of greens to destress, etc.). Palp also makes a ship really good at not getting Gunner'ed (turn evade into blank), meaning that it can be hard to get that second stress. If stress hogs came back, traditional aces could easily turn to Inspiring Recruit in non-Palp builds to mitigate a stress hog, but stress hogs are dead right now so no need to bother.

250 people in two locations is not an excellent sample size. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I would not be so definitive with that little data. Any discussion of balance and viability on these forums has to be assumed as talking about the highest level of competition possible, so Worlds, where you get the largest variety of different metas interacting with each other. Just because something is not doing well in your local regional doesn't mean it isn't elsewhere. If you are going to make such sweeping statements, at least refer to something other than your personal observations.

And this is to say nothing about taking a combative approach to the discussion right out the gate. There is no doubt that 'basement ace' is meant to be a pejorative, if you don't value these people's opinions or observations, then I would recommend not engaging them at all. Makes everyone involved have a better day.

Some of the old Rebel pilots seem to have brilliant Pilot skills. Just think about Wedge and Horton, which both have very strong abilites.

What would it take to make both of these pilots competitive again? What's the main issue here? Could this be fixed easily?

Personally I think. that Wedge is just not maneuverable at all. I think that's the main problem. Apart from this, he can be shot down within one round.

My little brother can fly BB-8 Wedge, Poe, and insert random ace here and tear through my Scum lists.

1 hour ago, codegnave said:

250 people in two locations is not an excellent sample size. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I would not be so definitive with that little data. Any discussion of balance and viability on these forums has to be assumed as talking about the highest level of competition possible, so Worlds, where you get the largest variety of different metas interacting with each other. Just because something is not doing well in your local regional doesn't mean it isn't elsewhere. If you are going to make such sweeping statements, at least refer to something other than your personal observations.

I mean, that's fine. We haven't had any Nationals or Worlds yet with the newest meta, but we have had a couple of System Open tournaments, and Rebels are generally not faring well there outside of Dash, K-Wings, and Kanan/Biggs (which is my above point).

I welcome any evidence from the recent Regional Season or System Open season that anyone can provide which shows, for instance, Braylen+Gunner making any cuts (or even any second days). I don't think it exists, I certainly haven't seen it personally at any events I've attended nor have I seen it in the results from such events I've been able to read and follow. But the burden of proof is not on me to go back and find all those results and to track down an exhaustive list of data from every Winter Regional or System Open this year to document objectively that Braylen+Gunner is not competitive right now (though I have tried in good faith to provide both anecdotal evidence from two recent large events and a theory-crafted explanation of why he is a bad choice for the current meta, which explains his lack of presence). I'd also be curious to see the evidence of U-Wings or Snap or Nien doing well, or of Bodhi Rook or Baze or any U-Wing crew or Rex making any kind of splash in the meta. If someone wants to believe Braylen+Gunner is good right now, despite all the evidence and reasons I have provided, by all means I encourage them to take it to an upcoming SoS or Worlds or National tournament and get curbstomped--it is the best way to learn.

Yea, I realize I'm being snarky. It's a bit of venting about the authority and confidence with which ever Joe Basement attempts to say that so-is-so is really good or that such-and-such is well-balanced or that Rebels have gotten really good ships and upgrades lately (but in my opinion, HotR and the U-Wing were utter garbage duds, and FFG's own preview article even said of HotR: "the garbage will do," which is truer than they intended).

I took Braylen to 24th place out of 130odd at a recent regional, along with Norra and Biggs. Not bad for my 2nd real tournament.

If I could fly better, I'd be using Miranda and Dash or double-lancers, or something else, but the 2 ARCs plus Biggs are fairly easy to use, particularly once everyone is tired. However I agree with you that my list is unlikely to win anything big - mostly because a better pilot will fly something more interesting!

As numerous persons said earlier here, the rebels do have some nasty things. They do have competitive solutions. The problem is : those competitive solutions are neither A, B, Y or X-wing. And that's ******* sad, if you got to this game because of Star Wars (and I think that represents a lot of rebel players, me included).

There are some cool rebel combos I'm really wanting to try to see if they will work... here are a few:

Braylen Stramm (25)
Baze Malbus (3)
R3-A2 (2)
Alliance Overhaul (0)

Total: 30

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Han Solo (46)
Push the Limit (3)
Baze Malbus (3)
Hotshot Co-pilot (4)
Engine Upgrade (4)
Millennium Falcon (1)

Total: 61

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

"Leebo" (34)
Determination (1)
"Mangler" Cannon (4)
Bistan (2)
Rigged Cargo Chute (1)
Smuggling Compartment (0)
Outrider (5)

Total: 47

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

The Leebo build I have flown and turns large ships into poo very quickly with the double crit effect, it also doesn't get affected by that moody little pr** that is Kylo Ren.

16 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

As someone who's immersed in the top-level competitive game, here's my take: Rebels are okay right now as long as you like flying Dash, Miranda, or Kanan.

Or you can say:

"As someone who's immersed in the top-level competitive game, here's my take: Scum are okay right now as long as you like flying Manaroo, Fen or Dengar."

Or you can say:

"As someone who's immersed in the top-level competitive game, here's my take: Imperials are okay right now as long as you like flying Defenders, Inquisitor or Pal's shuttle"

Copy cats gonna copy. This is true of every game.

The Las Vegas regional had some interesting lists, even if the Rebel winning list had Miranda.

... and the buggy boards double post bug bit again.

2 hours ago, Schu81 said:

Some of the old Rebel pilots seem to have brilliant Pilot skills. Just think about Wedge and Horton, which both have very strong abilites.

What would it take to make both of these pilots competitive again? What's the main issue here? Could this be fixed easily?

Personally I think. that Wedge is just not maneuverable at all. I think that's the main problem. Apart from this, he can be shot down within one round.

The problem with all of the neat things in Rebels is and always has been price. There's always been an effort to make Rebels a faction of characters that support one another, but the cost of those characters limits your list to 3 ships max and doesn't give you much worth supporting and is ultimately far too fragile to good target priority. It's a neat in theory combo style gameplay that has never been efficient but has really fallen flat as ships have been released with the ability to self generate these combos for themselves. Pre-Deadeye nerf, the Jumpmaster was basically doing everything the old Rebel pilots were designed to do without any outside dependency for 33 points. Nothing is quite that bad, but its a good comparison of what's really wrong with the way a lot of the Rebel combos are designed.

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/search

(not sure if the link will show the search results but I'll edit accordingly)

So more out of curiosity than anything else I wanted to see just how well braylen was performing at top tables and was pleasantly surprised by several regionals being the most recent results. No wins or top 8's but some top 16's and 32's at mid-level tourneys, certainly better than I expected.

Braylen is a great stresshog, I'd say the arc as a whole is a great ship and personal favorite, but stress control isn't very good against a lot of the top lists right now and that's kinda how I feel a lot of the conventional rebel strengths are positioned, good but just not great in the meta. The great thing however, is that X-wing is one of the most execution dependent games that I know of so if you take the time to git gud with your list your tourney results should reflect that.

I do agree that a lot of the new stuff from the past wave or 2 is just jank (R3 astromech, baze, most of the other upgrades), but in terms of things like the U-wing and other new ships I just feel it might take some time for it to find a home, maybe they needs another upgrade or crew to come out. And there are a few gems (vectored thrusters, pattern analyzer).

Overall the state of X-wing is definitely on the high end of the power curve so it really does take a lot to be competitive, but Rebels have some strong ships and in good hands you can put up one hell of a dogfight.

2 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I mean, that's fine. We haven't had any Nationals or Worlds yet with the newest meta, but we have had a couple of System Open tournaments, and Rebels are generally not faring well there outside of Dash, K-Wings, and Kanan/Biggs (which is my above point).

I welcome any evidence from the recent Regional Season or System Open season that anyone can provide which shows, for instance, Braylen+Gunner making any cuts (or even any second days). I don't think it exists, I certainly haven't seen it personally at any events I've attended nor have I seen it in the results from such events I've been able to read and follow. But the burden of proof is not on me to go back and find all those results and to track down an exhaustive list of data from every Winter Regional or System Open this year to document objectively that Braylen+Gunner is not competitive right now (though I have tried in good faith to provide both anecdotal evidence from two recent large events and a theory-crafted explanation of why he is a bad choice for the current meta, which explains his lack of presence). I'd also be curious to see the evidence of U-Wings or Snap or Nien doing well, or of Bodhi Rook or Baze or any U-Wing crew or Rex making any kind of splash in the meta. If someone wants to believe Braylen+Gunner is good right now, despite all the evidence and reasons I have provided, by all means I encourage them to take it to an upcoming SoS or Worlds or National tournament and get curbstomped--it is the best way to learn.

Yea, I realize I'm being snarky. It's a bit of venting about the authority and confidence with which ever Joe Basement attempts to say that so-is-so is really good or that such-and-such is well-balanced or that Rebels have gotten really good ships and upgrades lately (but in my opinion, HotR and the U-Wing were utter garbage duds, and FFG's own preview article even said of HotR: "the garbage will do," which is truer than they intended).

Im curious what you yourself fly? Im guessing you wait for a list to become strong like Paratanni, or Commonwealth Defenders then you fly it. How many people were flying Dengar before Dengaroo? Maybe a few PTL versions that didnt make a big splash. But the jumpmaster was all scouts, all the time.

People see Old Para take a couple regionals and then more people fly it and do well, and the list spreads. So you have 15-20 people at a 100 person regional now flying Paratanni. Of course a few are gonna bust into top16/8. If 20 people flew a U-wing, a few would make the cut. Unfortunately, you only have 1 maybe 2 people flying U-wings at regionals right now, so its a good chance they dont make the cut. It doesn't mean it's not competitive, it's just not getting the playtime at the moment. Once someone goes 6-0 through swiss with a U-wing, more people are gonna jump on the bandwagon.

I think after regionals, people will experiment with Store Championships and we will see the creativity come out. Regionals came so fast, people are playing it safe right now and using what works and what they have experience with. I flew a Uwing list for two weeks before regionals, then got 22nd/80. I was one shot away from 5-1, then missing the cut by 30 MOV. But who makes the top 8? A list I beat in swiss. But their list is deemed "competitive" and mine isn't? Bah, I say.

Other rebel lists miss the cut by like 15 MOV. If they did a couple more damage, they make the cut, then have a shot at winning. Doesnt mean its not competitive. I think every ship is competitive, just not every pilot. It just takes the right people to experiment and come up with strong lists. Creating unique strong lists is a skill, just like flying a list correctly.

Give ships and upgrades time before saying they are not competitive and absolute garbage. Attanni mindlink was out since the jumpmaster, and people wrote it off as a gimmick and "why would I give up the important EPT slot for a single focus token and risk being stressed?" It just had a couple decent showings before Paratanni exploded and made it famous. Hell, Airen Cracken just won a Vegas Regionals in a list that 100-0 Commonwealth. When was the last time you saw him do anything?

I think we are approaching the point where FFG would be best served by just removing Biggs from the game (as we know him at least) and simultaneously releasing some goodies to bring the Rebels OT/OG ships up to the current power level. Biggs sucks to play against. Always has. His presence is a huge design limitation for Rebels. The 'stache just ain't worth it anymore. Release a new card with some sort of super draw their fire effect and ban the original Biggs. I think it's time.