I remember reading somewhere an official version of Darth Vader that went something like 'Darth Vader has Two maneuvers, if at the end of his second maneuver he is engaged with a player character, that player is captured. If they Resist, they die.'

This honestly interested me as it felt thematic and true to Vader as he is seen in the movies. Though I liked this I felt that it could be more interesting, so I modified it for my game.

In my game what Darth Vader does is based on how many light side or dark side destiny is currently in the pool, and works like this.

• Darth Vader has two maneuvers, if at the end of his second maneuver he is engaged with a player character and there is more light side destiny in the destiny pool then dark side, that player is captured unless they resist.
• If that player resists, they flip one light side destiny to the dark side and sustain a critical injury. The resisting player then rolls Two Proficiency die and one Challenge die.
  • If the player rolls a Triumph Vader is distracted for a sort time (a few seconds) allowing the players an attempt to flee.
  • If the player rolls two triumphs, Vader is distracted for longer (a minute at most) and one dark side destiny is flipped to the light side, also all the player characters receive a boost die on all actions taken during the scene that Vader is involved.
  • If the player rolls a Despair, something happens that makes fleeing from the scene harder (stormtroopers show up or some-such) and the resisting player sustains a second Critical Injury (1d100+10).

or;

• Darth Vader has two maneuvers, if at the end of his second maneuver he is engaged with a player character and there is more dark side destiny in the destiny pool then light side, that player is killed unless they resist.
• If that player resists, they flip one light side destiny to the dark side and sustain a two critical injury's (one at 1d100 and another at 1d100+55) . The resisting player then rolls one Proficiency die and two Challenge die.
  • If the player rolls a Triumph Vader is distracted for a sort time (a few seconds) allowing the players an attempt to flee.
  • If the player rolls a Despair, something happens that makes fleeing from the scene harder (stormtroopers show up or some-such) and the resisting player sustains a third Critical Injury (1d100+20).
  • If the player rolls two Despairs, something really bad happens to make it hard to flee the scene, the resisting player sustains a fourth Critical Injury (1d100+30), and a light side destiny is flipped to the dark side.
• If at any point all destiny are flipped to the dark side during a scene where Vader is involved something really tragic happens (friend encased in carbonite, loss a hand, fleet destroys your base and so on).

It has worked well so far and it has really made encounters with Vader interesting.

Any ideas on other Iconic characters?

Personally I would stat Vader; I find that the idea of him being like a dragon ball Z character completely bonkers, though his appearance would be to flavour. e.g. if there are a lot of force senstives in the group I would expect him to turn up as an advesary at some point. I would make is stat block fairly beefy to repersent his immersion in power.

I find the key thing however is to ensure that whenever he does turn up, that the situation is always to his advantage. Either the PC's confronting him are fairly isolated (1-2 pcs) or some kind of hard time limit that makes confronting him unproductive. E.g. stormtrooper support moving in; the battle is heavily in the empires favour; just something that warrents the PC's making a fighting retreat. If his wound theshold is exceeded then the players get to do something dramatic, either cut off a hand, damage his respirator or otherwise he retreats; earning a rare victory. Likewise a DM should be extremely ruffless in using him and he should have the capablity to murder the PC's in cold blood if required; prompting possible sacrifice of characters that should be rewarded.

Years of experience has taught me that stating Iconic villains and heroes and putting them in the same location as the players pretty much guarantees their being killed when they shouldn't be, even if the odds are in their favor (all it takes is a really good roll, and players do that a lot), save of course when a GM Deus Ex Machina's them, but that feels wrong to me.

22 minutes ago, Azeraphin said:

when they shouldn't be,

Why shouldn't they be?

Hmm, nothing is more frustrating then when a villain you have been threatening and playing up from the beginning of a campaign is one shot killed due to a really good roll by a PC. I enjoy creativity from my players and I definitely think that if they came up with an interesting way to defeat a villain they should have a chance. But i firmly believe that some villains should be almost insurmountable, inspire fear and despair when they appear.

How would the Star Wars movies be if Darth Vader was killed by Luke on Bespin because he got a lucky lightsaber swing. I mean it was the GM's fault that Boba Fett died like a punk, that's what you get when you stat Iconic characters

I get what your saying Stan Fresh, but I personally like Villains that inspire terror and fear, and that no amount of damage and good rolling you do will take them down, but can be defeated by creative thinking coupled with good roleplaying. I've always felt stating big villains leaves to much to chance, and to a GM chance is the enemy of a good villain.

1 hour ago, Azeraphin said:

I get what your saying Stan Fresh, but I personally like Villains that inspire terror and fear, and that no amount of damage and good rolling you do will take them down, but can be defeated by creative thinking coupled with good roleplaying. I've always felt stating big villains leaves to much to chance, and to a GM chance is the enemy of a good villain.

Have them act off-screen, through intermediaries, have NPCs talk about them in hushed tones, and give them lots of underlings to soak up damage when they appear in a scene. Circumventing the mechanics of the game to protect an NPC takes away some of the fun when I'm playing. I want my PC's actions to have meaning, both on a story and a mechanical level. Giving an NPC the cheat codes diminishes the PCs, in my opinion.

Chance is your ally. RPGs are improvisational storytelling. Chance is what keeps you on your toes and forces you to come up with new and creative (re)actions to what happens in the game.

25 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Have them act off-screen, through intermediaries, have NPCs talk about them in hushed tones, and give them lots of underlings to soak up damage when they appear in a scene. Circumventing the mechanics of the game to protect an NPC takes away some of the fun when I'm playing. I want my PC's actions to have meaning, both on a story and a mechanical level. Giving an NPC the cheat codes diminishes the PCs, in my opinion.

Chance is your ally. RPGs are improvisational storytelling. Chance is what keeps you on your toes and forces you to come up with new and creative (re)actions to what happens in the game.

I respect what your saying, and I don't think your wrong about the PC's actions having meaning, both thematically and mechanically, but I have lost faith in Chance as an ally. Chance has burned me too many times to count, I can't even remember anymore how many bodies are strewn along the trail of campaign villains that have died early in a campaign due to chance.

Don't get me wrong I want my players to win (and they often do), I would just like it if it didn't feel like I wasted my time on what was supposed to be a campaign reaching villain and turned out to be a speed bump.

And I'm sorry, but I refuse to let Vader go down like a chump.

12 hours ago, Azeraphin said:

I remember reading somewhere an official version of Darth Vader that went something like 'Darth Vader has Two maneuvers, if at the end of his second maneuver he is engaged with a player character, that player is captured. If they Resist, they die.'

This honestly interested me as it felt thematic and true to Vader as he is seen in the movies. Though I liked this I felt that it could be more interesting, so I modified it for my game.

In my game what Darth Vader does is based on how many light side or dark side destiny is currently in the pool, and works like this.

• Darth Vader has two maneuvers, if at the end of his second maneuver he is engaged with a player character and there is more light side destiny in the destiny pool then dark side, that player is captured unless they resist.
• If that player resists, they flip one light side destiny to the dark side and sustain a critical injury. The resisting player then rolls Two Proficiency die and one Challenge die.
  • If the player rolls a Triumph Vader is distracted for a sort time (a few seconds) allowing the players an attempt to flee.
  • If the player rolls two triumphs, Vader is distracted for longer (a minute at most) and one dark side destiny is flipped to the light side, also all the player characters receive a boost die on all actions taken during the scene that Vader is involved.
  • If the player rolls a Despair, something happens that makes fleeing from the scene harder (stormtroopers show up or some-such) and the resisting player sustains a second Critical Injury (1d100+10).

or;

• Darth Vader has two maneuvers, if at the end of his second maneuver he is engaged with a player character and there is more dark side destiny in the destiny pool then light side, that player is killed unless they resist.
• If that player resists, they flip one light side destiny to the dark side and sustain a two critical injury's (one at 1d100 and another at 1d100+55) . The resisting player then rolls one Proficiency die and two Challenge die.
  • If the player rolls a Triumph Vader is distracted for a sort time (a few seconds) allowing the players an attempt to flee.
  • If the player rolls a Despair, something happens that makes fleeing from the scene harder (stormtroopers show up or some-such) and the resisting player sustains a third Critical Injury (1d100+20).
  • If the player rolls two Despairs, something really bad happens to make it hard to flee the scene, the resisting player sustains a fourth Critical Injury (1d100+30), and a light side destiny is flipped to the dark side.
• If at any point all destiny are flipped to the dark side during a scene where Vader is involved something really tragic happens (friend encased in carbonite, loss a hand, fleet destroys your base and so on).

It has worked well so far and it has really made encounters with Vader interesting.

Any ideas on other Iconic characters?

I'm stealing for my game I really like this idea. It gives more depth to an encounter besides 'Vader appears and you all die'. Plus it sounds to me as though the dice rolling bit will make the PC's feel like they have a chance to fight or escape (even if they don't).

1 hour ago, Vestij Jai Galaar said:

I'm stealing for my game I really like this idea. It gives more depth to an encounter besides 'Vader appears and you all die'. Plus it sounds to me as though the dice rolling bit will make the PC's feel like they have a chance to fight or escape (even if they don't).

Go ahead man, I'm happy you like it

Everyone always argues about whether or not Darth Vader, Palpatine, Yoda etc. should or should not be statted. Why do we never converse about statting Wicket , Roron Corobb, or Rugar Nass? It's Rugar Nass people!

More on topic, I really haven't introduced Vader into any of my campaigns due to this very reason. How are we to treat such an iconic character and make him truly have actual weight to his presence? I mean yeah he's mortal and all, but it's Darth Flippin' Vader. Option 1 regarding Azeraphin's solution seems to be quite solid, but even though I hate it when my big bad drops dead from getting a tin can smushed against their forehead I also like it when my players have the opportunity to actual overcome such an obstacle permanently (even if the chances are slim to Jim).

Guess it all really just comes down to your players' style.

6 hours ago, Weedles and Fries said:

More on topic, I really haven't introduced Vader into any of my campaigns due to this very reason. How are we to treat such an iconic character and make him truly have actual weight to his presence? I mean yeah he's mortal and all, but it's Darth Flippin' Vader. Option 1 regarding Azeraphin's solution seems to be quite solid, but even though I hate it when my big bad drops dead from getting a tin can smushed against their forehead I also like it when my players have the opportunity to actual overcome such an obstacle permanently (even if the chances are slim to Jim).

Guess it all really just comes down to your players' style.

I agree whole heartedly, how one chooses to portray Vader and other Iconic villains is indeed dependent on both a GM's and his/her players play style.

With a little roleplaying tweaking to my rules Vader can be dealt with in a more permanent fashion. An option I used to make an encounter with Vader sway into the players favor, is since Vader's tactics change based on the Destiny pools Light side or Dark side consistency. I introduced a roleplaying mechanic for just such encounters that allows players to increase the Light side amount of the pool through good and creative roleplaying, (say trying to appeal to Vader's old but still existent familial feelings, or even lead him into a well designed trap that employees allies and well placed defenses and tricks), and once the Destiny pool is made entirely of the Light side I had something really good happened which resulted in Vader being defeated and having to retreat. To be fair I also changed my rules slightly and made it that any time the resisting player rolled a Triumph it flipped a Dark side Destiny to the Light side, instead of only if they rolled two Triumphs, this made the situation escalate more into the players favor.

Your right Vader is Human, which means he's not invincible, but he should be taken down creatively and with considerable well thought out effort.

Vader's not and idiot nor a fool, many people have tried to kill him and yet he is still standing, only someone (or someones) of considerable worth and heroism are going to have a chance of bringing him down.

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe my Vader will work for everyone nor every encounter, but he might work for someone and that's alright by me .

On 2/25/2017 at 7:57 AM, Azeraphin said:

It has worked well so far and it has really made encounters with Vader interesting.

My thinking? If you have encounter S with Vader, then you you should probably either give him stats so the players have a shot at winning or replace him with a bad guy that you don't mind having them getting shot out from under you. For me as a player, constantly running away from Godzilla is going to get tiresome and frustrating.

If you don't want Vader to die in a standard encounter, use your GMs prerogative and cheat. The players shouldn't know his stats or his capabilities. If it's looking bad, and you don't want him to die, make sure it doesn't happen. Just don't tip off the players. Vader should have ridiculous stats anyway, so it shouldn't be completely unbelievable, and don't be afraid to flip some destiny points to make something narrative happen if you're feeling bad about cheating. The combat can still have narrative consequences. You just stood toe to toe with Vader and lived to tell the tale, there's going to be some consequences there.

I do like what the @Azeraphin put together though. That would definitely work for a single encounter, although I don't think I'd use it more than once.

I do apologize for restarting the age old discussion on whether Star Wars icons should have stats or not. I assure you, that wasn't my intention.

I don't think that there is any right or wrong way to portray Darth Vader for anyone's game. I think the only thing that should mater is what fits for your campaign.

If you feel that you and your players would benefit more from a fight with such and iconic character if they had stats, then by all means do so, that is your right. If you believe that any encounters with such characters should be the realm of role-playing, not roll-playing, that is also your right. And if you feel that experiences with iconic characters should be somewhere in the middle, then that also is your right.

I'm not going to argue my case on why I did Vader the way I did, I just did, and it works for me and my group. But that doesn't mean that it will work for everyone, so do what works for you.

If you want to use my Vader wright up for inspiration for your game, then please by all means do so, I would be happy to see someone else either then us give him a whirl.

If you don't though, that's fine too, I'm just happy that you gave it a look

May the Force be with you all.

You can also use the Tyrant/Nemesis way of doing things where defeating him is merely temporarily disabling him, going to a knee etc, just long enough for your PCs to escape. But most players would take the opportunity to try and take him out before that happens.

Vader probably doesn't have any issue toting a squad or eight of Stormtroopers along with him. A one-on-one fight might be dramatic, but getting him into a position where he is a) alone and b) not within a minute of reinforcement from other Imperials is going to be a chance encounter at best. (Yes, in Rebels he came down alone to fight three jedi, but there were also three Inquisitors and one totally-expected backstab(eye-slash?) from a Darth beforehand in that 'encounter') A party will doubtlessly get softened up a bit before trying to tackle Vader if they are even trying to take a shot at bringing him down in the first place!

Should Vader have stats? Probably, if he's not just a one-off appearance. If he's going to be actually fighting you're going to want to hammer out some numbers. If he is there to show up, menace the party a bit and crush an ally's windpipe before they can escape with the Death Star plans then you don't need stats.

Personally I'd Stat him out like crazy.

I've entertained the idea of bringing both Palpatine and Vader into the game. I even have a player who vehemently denies being evil but wants to kill Palpatine and take over the Empire. The issue here isn't necessarily whether one approach is better than the other. It's whether or not you want to preserve continuity or not. Personally I take the setting for what it is and the PCs can run amok. Your players are what matter not the iconic heroes and villains. Vader and Palpatine are late late late game fights if you make them fights. 500+ xp at a minimum with some high powered campaigning to set them up. The other heroes and villains a la Boba Fett, Luke, Han and what not I'd put around 350-400+ and make em bigger than life. Boba Fett may go it alone but he'll snipe, rocket and use traps to get his man. Make up Icon unique talents.

if you want them to pop up earlier use Azeraphin's system sparingly maybe twice with the 3rd time being the inescapable showdown. Also spice it up.

Ultimately it comes down to do you want your characters to change the universe or be a part of the main events?

So they killed Vader huh? Now a wound in the force has opened as the Strands of Destiny are torn asunder and they have to race across the galaxy to find a way to seal the breach by any means necessary even so far as delving into Sith ruins and damning themselves to take his place before it destroys all life. You could even alter the mechanics by removing the destiny pool from the game for a few sessions until they repair it.

I've found some really good gm tips from Matt Mercer on YouTube that have helped me grow a bit. He focuses a bit on the D&D side but it is quite applicable to any tabletop rpg.

11 hours ago, musicninja98 said:

Personally I'd Stat him out like crazy.

In fact, I did; just in case (Force 10, 5 ranks of all relevant talents, fully modded custom-made equipment and cybertech, and such). But, alas, the PCs did the sensible thing and bolted; even doing an impossible very, very desperate (RRRPP) jump, directly from the atmosphere.

11 hours ago, musicninja98 said:

Vader and Palpatine are late late late game fights if you make them fights. 500+ xp at a minimum with some high powered campaigning to set them up.

More in the thousands I'd say; my PCs are at 700+ now and far from invincible, I can tell you.

To cite "canon":

2 hours ago, Grimmerling said:

In fact, I did; just in case (Force 10, 5 ranks of all relevant talents, fully modded custom-made equipment and cybertech, and such). But, alas, the PCs did the sensible thing and bolted; even doing an impossible very, very desperate (RRRPP) jump, directly from the atmosphere.

More in the thousands I'd say; my PCs are at 700+ now and far from invincible, I can tell you.

To cite "canon":

I'm not sure how to respond. xD On the one hand that is a lot of dudes. Easily 100+. Jedi masters were killed with far, far less but their senses were dulled by endless war and trust. None of that would apply here. Hmmmmm. Like I said 500+ at a minimum for a Vader fight in my opinion. =p If you want 700 then rock the boat and make a 700+ xp fight.

I'm not worried about invincibility. If they want to fight someone like Vader they should always be far removed from invincible.

The Vader I envision would be as follows: This stat line assumes the highest damaging character does 8 damage with a lightsaber.

Darth Vader (Nemesis) [Human]

Soak 7 WT 40 ST 29 M/R 3/3

Bra 6 Agi 3 Int 3 Cun 5 Wil 5 Pre 3

Skills: Lightsaber 4, Vigilance 4, Cool 4, Coercion 3, Leadership 3, Athletics 3, Resilience 5, Knowledge (All except Lore) 4, Knowledge (Lore) 5, Perception 4, Discipline 4, Piloting (space) 3, Gunnery 3, Astrogation 3.

Talents: Parry 6, Improved Parry, Supreme Parry, Reflect 6, Improved Reflect, Supreme Reflect, Force Rating 4 or 5, Maelstrom of Terror, All players make a RRPPP Fear check every round until they succeed with a triumph, Saber Master: If Darth Vader would suffer strain to use a lightsaber talent reduce it by 1 to a minimum of 1. Adversary 4, Durable 7, Lethal Blows 4, and Not Your Destiny: Flip an additional light side destiny point when a Light Side destiny point is used against Vader, Undying Rage: Vader cannot be killed by Critical Hits

Force Powers: Maxed out Sense, Maxed out bind (except magnitude), Max Enhance (excluding Force Leap)

Equipment: Darth Vader's Lightsaber Damage 10 Critical 1, Vicious 3, Sunder, Breach 1. If targeted by a Force Power reduce the Force Users pool by 2, starting with Light side points.

Darth Vader's Cortosis Plated Sith Combat Armor: (Soak +2, Defense +3), Cortosis; Add 2 Dark Force Power Point to every force roll.

If the party decides to nick his armor or lightsaber to use after defeating him I'd hit them with a 3 or 4 conflict points per session per item used to represent the item being drenched in the dark side and they have to pass a RRRPP discipline check for each item to get rid of them . If you fail you keep the item for that session, every despair rolled grants an additional 1 or 2 conflict.

Not everyone will agree and that's just the rough draft of him off the top of my head. Too stat or not too stat? That is the question.