To make things simple, just look here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gzb_UZV151EYxeVn2Ij5xsiPcW38xTDrp8i9he2OuKo/edit

I'd drop the cost of the Imperial Security Droid. By at least 1 point, maybe even make it free. It does nothing if you don't get any face-up damage cards in a given game, and even if you do, it doesn't guarantee any better results, and it comes at the huge opportunity cost of using up a crew slot.

I like the concept though. Engineer is cool as well, poe effect for TLs, could pair well on someone alongside vessery, so they can keep the TL out for him to use but still get some benefit from it for themselves.

Homing torpedo I think is a bit too cheap. Same 4 dice and range as a proton, but you don't have to discard the TL to fire it, and convert a blank instead of an eyeball. For a point cheaper. The comparable missile is 2 points more. I would LOVE to run that for 3 points on my mindlinked uboats...

Ion cannons probably need rewording as well. As written, it doesn't trigger until after the attack is entirely complete, at which point there's no hits or crits left to cancel. I'm assuming the idea is for you to be able to do so when you hit, not just anytime you attack, in which case it would need to be "When you hit with a primary weapon attack.."

There is a nice art of the Skipray somewhere in the internet. I think it's for some FFG game/book.

About the title, what do you think of this: for each cancelled [hit] or [critical], the defender receives 1 ion token. Or even: "for each [critical], the defender receives 1 ion token.

Suggestion: try to use some lore pilots, like Kir Kanos.

I think the dial is going to be a little too restrictive in terms of green maneuvers. I think that's the same dial as a Y-wing? Anyway the lack of any bank greens is very harsh. I recommend making the 1 or 2-banks green.

Also, was there any reference point that you were working off of for the price? I'm not sure what I think of it yet but I'm just wondering how you came to that price point.

14 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

I'd drop the cost of the Imperial Security Droid. By at least 1 point, maybe even make it free. It does nothing if you don't get any face-up damage cards in a given game, and even if you do, it doesn't guarantee any better results, and it comes at the huge opportunity cost of using up a crew slot.

I like the concept though. Engineer is cool as well, poe effect for TLs, could pair well on someone alongside vessery, so they can keep the TL out for him to use but still get some benefit from it for themselves.

Homing torpedo I think is a bit too cheap. Same 4 dice and range as a proton, but you don't have to discard the TL to fire it, and convert a blank instead of an eyeball. For a point cheaper. I would LOVE to run that for 3 points on my mindlinked uboats...

I see your point with the droid and the torpedo. I had thought about lowering its attack, since lore wise it lost some bang to get its tracking.

9 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Ion cannons probably need rewording as well. As written, it doesn't trigger until after the attack is entirely complete, at which point there's no hits or crits left to cancel. I'm assuming the idea is for you to be able to do so when you hit, not just anytime you attack, in which case it would need to be "When you hit with a primary weapon attack.."

Darn it! I'll be fixing that.

7 minutes ago, Odanan said:

There is a nice art of the Skipray somewhere in the internet. I think it's for some FFG game/book.

About the title, what do you think of this: for each cancelled [hit] or [critical], the defender receives 1 ion token. Or even: "for each [critical], the defender receives 1 ion token.

Suggestion: try to use some lore pilots, like Kir Kanos.

Could you tell me where to find this art is? Also, I tried to find lore pilots, but the internet was no help there. Any others that you know of? I also like the first idea you for a title.

17 minutes ago, Babaganoosh said:

I think the dial is going to be a little too restrictive in terms of green maneuvers. I think that's the same dial as a Y-wing? Anyway the lack of any bank greens is very harsh. I recommend making the 1 or 2-banks green.

Also, was there any reference point that you were working off of for the price? I'm not sure what I think of it yet but I'm just wondering how you came to that price point.

*facepalm*

I thought that dial looked familiar. You may be right about the greens though. And I used the YV as a base. More armor and agile, but a worse dial. I was thinking it might be too cheap, but wanted feedback on it.

Sadly, when I think of what the Skipray should look like I immediately start looking at the YT-2400 although I'd be giving it two cannon slots and creating a two-slot "Heavy Ion Cannon" to represent the normal primary weapon of the ship. If not two Cannon slots would still allow it to field the HLC and then one of the close in cannons. While it may be less effective that 2 dice PWT is still useful for the close in stuff and to keep stuff off your back; it's probably less "broken" than letting the ship take the TLT in concert with the example's primary weapon system.

I almost wonder if it's too expensive, not to cheap. As far as I can tell, it's just a standard forward arc primary. Compared to the ghost, you lose an attack die (which is big), 4 health and a PS to gain 2 agility for 3 points more (and somewhat upgrades, I'd argue the ghosts upgrade bar is also better). And the ghost has a better dial. Cheapest ghost is 3 points cheaper than your cheapest skipray though.

Compared to the cheapest YV, you gain 1 agility and lose the auxiliary arc and are paying a massive 9 points more for the skipray. I think the aux arc at least cancels out the additional green die when you compare the price.

Compared to the firespray, you lose 3 PS from the cheapest generic and lose the aux arc and only gain 2 health, while costing 3 points more.

3 minutes ago, StevenO said:

Sadly, when I think of what the Skipray should look like I immediately start looking at the YT-2400 although I'd be giving it two cannon slots and creating a two-slot "Heavy Ion Cannon" to represent the normal primary weapon of the ship. If not two Cannon slots would still allow it to field the HLC and then one of the close in cannons. While it may be less effective that 2 dice PWT is still useful for the close in stuff and to keep stuff off your back; it's probably less "broken" than letting the ship take the TLT in concert with the example's primary weapon system.

Being able to take TLT on an expensive ship isn't that broken. The skipray doesn't even have a PWT. Compare that to a ghost, also with no PWT, but also has a 4 die primary. But if you're spending 50 points on one ship after upgrades, 2 single-damge TLT attacks...isn't very scary. It works on the ghost because you can take the title to get 4 shots instead of 2.

Using the unified equation P=2A [(H+S)/(5-D)+1.5], where A D H S is the stat line, the low PS Skipray should be 33 points.

49 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

I almost wonder if it's too expensive, not to cheap. As far as I can tell, it's just a standard forward arc primary. Compared to the ghost, you lose an attack die (which is big), 4 health and a PS to gain 2 agility for 3 points more (and somewhat upgrades, I'd argue the ghosts upgrade bar is also better). And the ghost has a better dial. Cheapest ghost is 3 points cheaper than your cheapest skipray though.

Compared to the cheapest YV, you gain 1 agility and lose the auxiliary arc and are paying a massive 9 points more for the skipray. I think the aux arc at least cancels out the additional green die when you compare the price.

Compared to the firespray, you lose 3 PS from the cheapest generic and lose the aux arc and only gain 2 health, while costing 3 points more.

28 minutes ago, Lobokai said:

Using the unified equation P=2A [(H+S)/(5-D)+1.5], where A D H S is the stat line, the low PS Skipray should be 33 points.

Well, there's some added cost is from the free ion effect, but I may cut the cost by a point or two.

I actually figured that in. Large ships get a 12.5% price reduction unless they have a powerful turret option. I treated the ion effect as that.

Also, it should get a bonus against Large and Huge ships. That's kinda it schtick. Right now a TIE phantom outguns it and an interceptor meets it. Kinda ignores the lore/point of the Skipray.

56 minutes ago, Lobokai said:

I actually figured that in. Large ships get a 12.5% price reduction unless they have a powerful turret option. I treated the ion effect as that.

Also, it should get a bonus against Large and Huge ships. That's kinda it schtick. Right now a TIE phantom outguns it and an interceptor meets it. Kinda ignores the lore/point of the Skipray.

And the ion effect isn't as good against large ships since you need to hit em twice to get em actually ionized

Well, the Rebel's B-wing got some of the same treatment( yes it can take a cannon, but this thing was packed to the gills), and I really don't know how you'd word that.

3 hours ago, sf1raptor said:

I see your point with the droid and the torpedo. I had thought about lowering its attack, since lore wise it lost some bang to get its tracking.

Darn it! I'll be fixing that.

Could you tell me where to find this art is? Also, I tried to find lore pilots, but the internet was no help there. Any others that you know of? I also like the first idea you for a title.

Took me some time to find it, but here you go.

You know, there is something else you could do about the primary ion attack... you could add a cannon upgrade icon and make the ship's basic attack 0 (I blame FFG for the clumsy cannon/primary weapon mechanics).

OR you could make it a 360º primary attack of 2 and add a cannon upgrade icon. Title could go the other ships models.

Here is my (simplified) take on it:

(10 squad points discount if it is a large base ship)

PS: it could even have 1 more crew.

41 minutes ago, Odanan said:

Took me some time to find it, but here you go.

You know, there is something else you could do about the primary ion attack... you could add a cannon upgrade icon and make the ship's basic attack 0 (I blame FFG for the clumsy cannon/primary weapon mechanics).

OR you could make it a 360º primary attack of 2 and add a cannon upgrade icon. Title could go the other ships models.

Thanks! I may go with the PTW route and add a Skipray only mod to bump the Ion's power (Basically make Dar-2 the mod and it say that ion cannons do a max of two damage based on the role.) Maybe add a GAT-12g title that swaps the missile for an ion cannon, or make the ion mod free and do the GAT-12m for an improved dial.

Bumped do to edits. Changed cost of the Skipray and Droid, changed Dar-2 Ion Cannons to a mod and wording change to reflect this, Homing Torpedo attack reduced, changed "Firefight" to Kir Kanos, art change for Kir Kanos, green 1 banks are now green, primary weapon now 2 attack primary, new title, and replaced turret upgrade to cannon upgrade.

Overall I really like the ship and the concept; the skipray is something that the absence of which from the game has always irked me a bit for some reason.

That said, there are a couple of changes that I personally would make.

I feel that the 7 Shields behind 2 agility might be a bit much (and feels slightly counter to most imperial ships), it's already a really tanky ship with 12 health behind 2 green dice. I may take some flak for the suggestion, but it feels almost like the shield and Hull scores should be the other way round: 5 Shields & 7 hull.

I think you could get away with buffing the ion cannons a little bit. The ion cannon modification you have there is good (and I like the way it functions), but I think it could do more - it wouldn't be a push to have it assign a second ion token to the defender, and would be quite thematic considering we want the blastboat to be better at hurting bigger ships.

Then there's the point costs. I'm just going off gut feeling here since I'm not quite up to mathematically costing the ships, but they do feel slightly overcosted; by about 4 points (give or take).

There is also one trick that you may be missing: this one could be difficult to get right since it could break other ships wide open if done wrong, but hear me out & see what you think of it:

What I would like to see is a crew add on that would enable the firing of the pwt after firing a secondary weapon. To avoid breaking things I would probably word it like this:

"After you perform a secondary weapon attack you may immediately perform a primary weapon attack. This attack may not be declared against a target inside your firing arc. You may not attack again this round."

I think (bearing in mind my inexperience at designing for this game) that you could probably cost that at two points and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't break any other ships or upgrades.

I want to close by saying that this is good work, and I love what you've done with the ship.

And here I didn't think some people liked the idea of giving it a 2 die PWT with a Canon upgrade slot.

I'm having a hard time reading the new Dar-2 Ion Cannon but while I recognize the Skipray should have a powerful Ion attack I think it may be boosting it too much despite filling up that all important Modification spot.

6 hours ago, namdoolb said:

Overall I really like the ship and the concept; the skipray is something that the absence of which from the game has always irked me a bit for some reason.

That said, there are a couple of changes that I personally would make.

I feel that the 7 Shields behind 2 agility might be a bit much (and feels slightly counter to most imperial ships), it's already a really tanky ship with 12 health behind 2 green dice. I may take some flak for the suggestion, but it feels almost like the shield and Hull scores should be the other way round: 5 Shields & 7 hull.

I think you could get away with buffing the ion cannons a little bit. The ion cannon modification you have there is good (and I like the way it functions), but I think it could do more - it wouldn't be a push to have it assign a second ion token to the defender, and would be quite thematic considering we want the blastboat to be better at hurting bigger ships.

Then there's the point costs. I'm just going off gut feeling here since I'm not quite up to mathematically costing the ships, but they do feel slightly overcosted; by about 4 points (give or take).

There is also one trick that you may be missing: this one could be difficult to get right since it could break other ships wide open if done wrong, but hear me out & see what you think of it:

What I would like to see is a crew add on that would enable the firing of the pwt after firing a secondary weapon. To avoid breaking things I would probably word it like this:

"After you perform a secondary weapon attack you may immediately perform a primary weapon attack. This attack may not be declared against a target inside your firing arc. You may not attack again this round."

I think (bearing in mind my inexperience at designing for this game) that you could probably cost that at two points and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't break any other ships or upgrades.

I want to close by saying that this is good work, and I love what you've done with the ship.

The defense and agility did have some sway in the cost. Like you said, it's tanky, but you pay extra for it, that and the free mod. As for the crew, that's sort of what Gunner already does.

5 hours ago, StevenO said:

And here I didn't think some people liked the idea of giving it a 2 die PWT with a Canon upgrade slot.

I'm having a hard time reading the new Dar-2 Ion Cannon but while I recognize the Skipray should have a powerful Ion attack I think it may be boosting it too much despite filling up that all important Modification spot.

Yeah, yeah. I did start to see some tricky things with staying away from it. But, the free upgrade still pushes you to taking the Ion Cannon on board. Also, Dar-2 doesn't add much to the Ion Cannon, it give it a chance at two damage, and lets you do critical damage. Plus it's only something the Skipray can pull off.