20 minutes ago, mythics said:

IMO an easy first step (and one I think should have been the case) is that unique sources are per card title, not per card. At the moment it only affects bcc, targeting scramblers, and maybe one other card. The end effect would be bomber command center doesn't stack. You can still take multiple for more coverage, but say no to stacking.

Yup.

--

@Vergilius : Yes, I do mean to raise it as an issue that I hope FFG quickly creates possible counter-play for by next wave. So, that is my goal.
For the community, my goal is to raise awareness that the current balance between ships and squadrons is highly dubious, and maybe if people come to see that, FFG would be more inclined to consider creating more counterbalance. Also, that squadron-heavy games shouldn't be the focus of Armada alone.

Also, you tend to accuse me of being nitpicky about the data, but I made my case already about the top4 in wave 3 4 season 1 2, and when I first made my arguments, they were data from the top4 also of wave5. I will also state that i did a step by step analysis of the material i had at the time from bottom half, top16, top8, top4 etc, as a linear trend. I will definitely admit that right now wave5 results show a serious mix of stuff, but let's look again and see what the results are after these have been added. at this point also, my case is Wave 3 4 BCC and squadrons is the issue, exacerbated by wave 5. Wave 3 4 has PLENTY of data. Wave 5 is starting to reach something like 16+. If you make a case for "small sample size argument", you give us an idea what is a collectable large enough data point.

Git good

Just now, Ginkapo said:

Git good

Arrrrrrrgh.

Just now, Blail Blerg said:

Arrrrrrrgh.

Its the only sensible response I have left.

Its what we said about Demo. Its what I say about BCC and intel.

Demo is still good. =)

Nothing like Ginkapo to come in with the short response that settles everything.

The good news is if this Rieekan bomber list takes over, you can have a modest bid and force it to play your objectives. Focus some of your list to beat it, like a Raider with Kallus+Flechette, which is probably the cheapest and most effective way to deal with Rieekan aces, or using a bunch of E-Wings to stay outside of range. Both of these methods are dual purpose, Raiders can throw 6 dice with a double arc, not something to disregard, and E-Wings have bomber.

Let the meta evolve, and the natural progression with lead to a solution for the problem. You can be proactive and try to crush it, but it has 2 regional wins. I wouldn't count 3 since Rieekan aces has been around for a while, but they haven't included a Pelta to push squads. The list is out there. People are net listing, which makes me sad, but we can't stop it now.

What sucks is I might have to change the list I wanted to bring to Worlds because this Rieekan list may be the most popular. And that kinda aggravates me.

Monroville sixth place list is available here:

http://armadawarlords.hivelabs.solutions/view_list.php?token=76523&key=1e9be46be64b9b34f04aa2536e185f5d

16 hours ago, shmitty said:

I haven't been tracking FCTs or FC. Anecdotally most Yavaris players this season have been using them.

It would be easy enough to find fleets with Rieekan, 5 activations, Pelta, and Yavaris.

Fleets with Yavaris & BCC: (from fleets in full data tab) (I regard BCC as an essential element of this archetype)

wave thor v 5: 23/20 Rieekan: 13/12

by bracket (Thor/5) : Rieekan

wins 3/1 : 2/1

top4 7/8 : 5/7

top8 11/14 : 8/9

Top-half 11/14 : 7/9

Bot-qtr 6/3 : 2/1

I didn't filter out no-pelta, to compare across waves.

8 minutes ago, Baltanok said:

Fleets with Yavaris & BCC: (from fleets in full data tab) (I regard BCC as an essential element of this archetype)

wave thor v 5: 23/20 Rieekan: 13/12

by bracket (Thor/5) : Rieekan

wins 3/1 : 2/1

top4 7/8 : 5/7

top8 11/14 : 8/9

Top-half 11/14 : 7/9

Bot-qtr 6/3 : 2/1

I didn't filter out no-pelta, to compare across waves.

So it looks like less people (or a result of a smaller subset of data) are using Rieekan Yavaris BCC after wave 5, but are doing just as well. And the majority of people with Yavaris BCC are using Rieekan as their commander.

10 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

So it looks like less people (or a result of a smaller subset of data) are using Rieekan Yavaris BCC after wave 5, but are doing just as well.

But the poorly constructed argument that "Rieekan and squadrons are ruining the meta" doesn't want this to be so! It can't be true then!

3 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

The good news is if this Rieekan bomber list takes over, you can have a modest bid and force it to play your objectives. Focus some of your list to beat it, like a Raider with Kallus+Flechette, which is probably the cheapest and most effective way to deal with Rieekan aces, or using a bunch of E-Wings to stay outside of range. Both of these methods are dual purpose, Raiders can throw 6 dice with a double arc, not something to disregard, and E-Wings have bomber.

Let the meta evolve, and the natural progression with lead to a solution for the problem. You can be proactive and try to crush it, but it has 2 regional wins. I wouldn't count 3 since Rieekan aces has been around for a while, but they haven't included a Pelta to push squads. The list is out there. People are net listing, which makes me sad, but we can't stop it now.

What sucks is I might have to change the list I wanted to bring to Worlds because this Rieekan list may be the most popular. And that kinda aggravates me.

Well said Undeadguy!

If I may add my two cents for what it is worth. I attribute my success at Worlds with the Reeikan Aceholes list (if first loser you can call success) from my experiences as a player in armada. I have been playing armada since Wave 0. I played with squadrons as my main list since day 1 so I learned the squadron game back when it was unpopular and everyone thought they sucked. Every tournament in our city I was their organizing it and running it, when we had odd number players I would TO to avoid the bye and I used that time to study my players in my community and watch the games they played in. I learned a lot over watching, teaching, and playing to where I got very good at countering my opponents moves. Back then demolisher and Rhymer were the dominate thing! And way more so dominating the meta then Rieekan aces. Our wave 2 regionals had 29 players, tied for third most attended regionals in the world I believe. I did have a first round bye and we went 4 rounds. My three opponents had Msu lists with demolisher and they were very good at using them. Two of those lists also had the fireballs. My scores against those opponents were 9-1, 10-0, and 9-1. This was back when you needed a 350 MoV to 10-0 someone. Needless to say I won the regionals handedly with a demolisher msu dominated meta.

But You see I learned to win against these types of lists because I studied them and got my ass whipped by them. I also got to play against many other lists and learned so much of what I needed to do in many different situations.

Then enter Wave Thor. I had run my lists in so many of our local tourneys and occasionally players would get the best of me and each time I made evolutions to my list, and learned. So that the next time my opponents would not get the better of me. By the time Worlds came about I had played against virtually all the list archetypes that were there and knew what I needed to do to secure a win.

It is the same for me this year for their are threats to my list build that I need to learn to counter, but my experience is that if you really want to be competitive you need to just practice and bring to the tournament what you are most experienced at, and practice playing against what you are not experienced at, and what you have trouble with.

I have been blessed that our city built a very meta diverse, robust, and skilled player base. I consistently see the same players at the top tables not because of their lists, but because they are regularly the ones showing up at casual events and going to tournaments. They practice and put forth the effort. Also by happenstance they have fun doing it.

58 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

So it looks like less people (or a result of a smaller subset of data) are using Rieekan Yavaris BCC after wave 5, but are doing just as well. And the majority of people with Yavaris BCC are using Rieekan as their commander.

You have read it slightly wrong, slightly more people are using bcc yavaris now than wave thor (though not factored by no. of events).

However, the distribution is unchanged.

I find the lack of "Wave Jive" in all of this to be disturbing.

We are currently in Wave Jive.

2 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

You have read it slightly wrong, slightly more people are using bcc yavaris now than wave thor (though not factored by no. of events).

However, the distribution is unchanged.

Oh I see now. Yea it took me a while to understand it the first time but looking back I see how it was meant to be.

Wave 3/4 vs wave 5 people with Yavaris BCC and the other is the amount of those players taking Rieekan.

Alright I have the fleets that are given in there. T

49 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Oh I see now. Yea it took me a while to understand it the first time but looking back I see how it was meant to be.

Wave 3/4 vs wave 5 people with Yavaris BCC and the other is the amount of those players taking Rieekan.

Actually, wave 5 has fewer Yavaris fleets as a percent. 23/181 wave thor fleets vs 20/229 wave 5.

2 hours ago, Baltanok said:

Fleets with Yavaris & BCC: (from fleets in full data tab) (I regard BCC as an essential element of this archetype)

wave thor v 5: 23/20 Rieekan: 13/12

by bracket (Thor/5) : Rieekan

wins 3/1 : 2/1

top4 7/8 : 5/7

top8 11/14 : 8/9

Top-half 11/14 : 7/9

Bot-qtr 6/3 : 2/1

I didn't filter out no-pelta, to compare across waves.

Denominators! Need more Denominators!

Thanks very much for doing all the number crunching.