Am I right to assume that the following shouldn't stack:

- the good dice list of possible source of fortune dice "outnumbering opponent" and the "assist manoeuvre" that allows an engaged ally to add a bonus fortune die to their next check.

My inclination is to go as follows, really the list of bonus dice is indicating a potential source of good dice from the assist manoeuvre, not that you can combine them and get two (or expect monsters ganging up on PC's to do the same). Otherwise the assist maneouvre if two+ PC's engaged with an NPC (or vice versa) allows 2 fortune dice pretty routinely. I prefer to see it as "just having numbers doesn't help if you don't exploit it, which is what the assist maneouvre is for".

Tactics that arent' strictly "helping each other's attacks" still add bonus dice for good play etc.

Sound right?

personal choice, I reckon, but I'm going to let them stack.

There are likely to be plenty of times when the PCs (or NPCs) are going to want to use their free manouvre on something other than assisting, and aren't going to want to take the hit on getting more.

It also depends on how you want to apply the out numbered modifier too; you could choose to make that a generic modifier to all combatants based on the total number on either side, rather than within a specific engagement and then let people use the assist modifier within an engagement.

That way, one side within a particular engagement could be getting a bonus because overall in the whole battle across multiple engagements they out number their opponents, and yet within that particular engagement their oppoents could get a bonus against them by using the assist manouvre.

I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, just experiment and go with what works for you

I am still working this one out, but I disagree with the previous post.... I don't see any reason at all for anyone engaged in combat to use a maneuver for anything at all but assisting. So to me letting them stack would be a whole lot of dice.

At this point, I am not giving dice out fortune or misfortune for merely being outnumbered. You can spend a manuever to add a white dice to an ally's next attack or to add a black die to the next attack against them.

Part of the issue is also Flanking Manuever which is the most 'broken' talent in the game and in all 3 parties I've played with has wound up attached to the group card. It basically means you are always getting an extra white die on all your attacks. Add in each of us using our maneuver to aid each other and that makes 2 white dice. If we were fighting less opponents make that 3 white dice. Also, in theory more than one person can assisst in an action so it could be more. And we haven't talked about adding some dice for outnumbering. If it were meant to all stack up that badly the game would have come with 24 white dice!

OTOH, I am not looking for TPK's - just a player respect of combat I feel appropriate to Warhammer. So if they are fighting a big bad and it seems too strongly weighted against them I might add in a white for outnumbering, and a black for the bad guy.

Exchanging a talent, knocking over a table, climbing onto a table, drawing a weapon, reloading a weapon, getting something from your belt or pack, preparing to use a specific action card, disengaging, and that is without thinking of stuff not mentioned direclty in the rule book.

If your PCs are doing nothing but assisting then make the environment more interesting so that they try something a bit more different.

I am also going to allow a PC to get a bonus fortune die on his OWN roll provided he can come up with something interesting to do with his manouvre, such as kicking a near by chair into the feet of his enemy, kicking dirt in the enemies face, grabbing a mug of beer of the table and throwing that in the enemies face, etc, etc

I'll be adding in misfortune dice left right and centre, so the PCs will have to come up with novel ways to add in fortune dice to their rolls to balance it all out. Also adding in an extra dice or two probably won't skew the results too much one way or the other; the whole system is built around empowering the GM to add in "some" dice, so that even if that number is a bit skewed in one direction or the other, it doesn't break the system and the GM can easily adjust the next time round.

I am with Pumpkin on this; it's how we run out table. As he points on, there are a ton of things the PCs will want to do in a given turn which consume maneuvers. However, if two PCs are engaged with an opponent, the assist is a natural maneuver to (ala flanking).

There are plenty of misfortune coming at them, this helps maintain momentum.

pumpkin said:

None of my players have more talents than they can use or permanently attach to the party, not sure why I'd want to knock over a table or climb onto one... might it give me the same fortune dice I'd get for being assisted? In combat other than round one (if that) weapons are drawn so no need to do that, in an engagement no one is using ranged weapons to need reloading other than maybe someone using a pistol, I have never seen an action card that required preparation on a character, if I'm disengaging I'm a non-combatant that isn't what I'm talking about,... and I'm not sure what I'd want to get out of my pack in the middle of a fight (other than maybe a healing potion)....

so I don't see any of those ever happening... other than someday maybe the potion part.

I am not opposed to role-playing and doing kewl stuff (I encourage the use of the stunt action), but in a normal fight in the middle of a road by a wrecked coach perhaps - I'm not seeing any room for real exotic behavior. Even if I did knock over a table (maybe to get some cover against an archer), what about next turn? At some point you are going to be trading attacks and I don't know why you just wouldn't assist at all time. And if you want to make the character describe how he does it - 'I flank the guy' or 'spit in his face' or 'taunt him to get his attention', whatever... saying you have to do something different all the time is silly.

My players seem very willing to take extra fatigue on initial turns to do what they need to do to get into action. If it is paying an extra to draw that weapon, or move further, or whatever. So if they thought they needed to kick over that table they'd do it before they even started to fight.

Anyway - every game is different, and I'm not knocking anyone else's more seeking ideas.

We have chosen to skip the assist manoeuvre and outnumbering modifiers after our first session. They became colourless standard modifiers that didn't add anything to the atmosphere.

There are plenty of great support and teamwork action cards, which are fun to use and much more exciting. They enhance roleplay, encourage collaboration and the players enjoy to see their cunning tactics being successful. I believe it is better to award good role-playing with a fortune dice or two than a standard manoeuvre, which is used because there are no other meaningful options.

However, this leaves a problem with manoeuvres in combat because after the initial preparations have been done they are only used for moving and occational interactions with the surroundings.

By the way, we have houseruled a cost of 1 stress to disengage (except in the case of free manoeuvres awarded on action cards). The reason for this was a situation where a PC was attacked by a zombie. In every round the PC disengaged and moved to long range and shot a ranged attack, then the zombie moved to engage taking three wounds and made a melee attack. Then the PC disengaged, ran back to the starting position and shot a ranged attack, etc... It became a comedy, where the PC basically converted fatigue into wounds. Because of his low WP he will go insane if he tries that thick in the future.

imanfasil said:

With all due respect, if that's you opinion of it, then that's probably why you have the issue with players using the assist manouvre every round in the first place, but as you say, each to to their own.

I see that description as enhancing the game, and wouldn't let the same player give the same description round after round (the NPC would be wise to it), and as long as they do that I would have no problem with them using the assist round after round, because it is making the narrative of the game fun and exciting, IMO.

Allavandrel said:

Yep, this is something that concerns me a bit with the free form nature of buying extra manoeuvres. I'm thinking of limiting it so that you can only perform a max of three manoeuvres in a turn, two of which you obviously have to buy with fatigue.

that allows you to move from extreme to long, or from long to close, which seems to work in my mind so far, need to trial it though as my players are bound to find ways to exploit even that!!

pumpkin said:

I like your idea of a manoeuvre cap of three. Sounds reasonable!

I only add one fortune dice if there is more allies in the particular engagment than opponents. and only one misfortune dice if the players are outnumbered in the engagement. But does it says specific to add more dice for outnumbering?

I think otherwise hencmen and applying henchmen rules will be too powerful, as they gang up on one individual and recieve a fortune die per henchmen engaged. adding a fortune die per opponent for outnumbering the player or players on top of that, will make it unbalanced I think, and you often will end up rolling a huge number of white dice.

Beside assisting in combat is not the same as flanking, as we have the tactic talent card: flanking manouvre.

Mal Reynolds said:

I think it's fine to think of assising in combat as flanking. A character using the the Flanking Manoeuvre ability can just be considered to have a lot more practice and training.

DagobahDave said:

This is precisely how see all of the action cards; they demonstrate a character with more experience in the endeavor than the average. Certainly anyone can schmooze a target socially, but the character with Honeyed Words are that much more effective and can get more consistent and/or better results. Same with the concept of flanking & assistance.

pumpkin said:

I didn't mean only using 1 thing all the time but a fight lasts 3-4 rounds... if I had 3-4 'very appropriate/entertaining/amusing' (whatever your criteria are) things and used 1 each round til X was dead. Next fight why would opponent Y be ready for them? Why could I not do them again? If you would be ok with these being heavily recycled then to me there is no point in even having them.

From a RP/character perspective look at movies, books, videogames, whatever your source of inspiration is... and trademark/signature moves are part of it and part of what makes characters interesting, memorable, and cool.

I don't know if you have the misfortune of having a background in MMO's but one of my biggest problems with the game is that I already see certain characters as having 'optimized' combat rotations. The WoW equivalent of hit 1 (for 12+ damage), then hit 2 (for 13+ damage) then hit 3 (for a 20+ damage), wash rinse repeat. The maneuver cards being an illusion of choice and variation.

imanfasil said:

As I said, I see the narrative from the player as enhancing the game, and if they take the time to enhance the game, then they deserve some reward, if you see no point in having them then that's your choice, but IMO, your loss.

And I have never touched an MMO in my life, but again, that's my choice.

The game could be played in the wash, rinse, repeat mode that you mention, but dare I say it, that that is possibly an issue with the players playing it that way, rather than the game itself.

At our table, innovation is rewarded and repetition is occasionally punished!

DagobahDave said:

thats one way of looking at it. and yes having both will add 2 fortune dice to your ally`s next melee attack. But I think that the assist manuouvre should not be limited to only flanking, as all kinds of creative use of the assist manouvre could be valid. Like screaming wildly, to throwing dirt around, banging on your shield. almost anything could do. But yeah I agree that flanking is one way of describing the assist manouvre.